Do you pity the damned?

[Vera_Ljuba]

A gaining of knowledge is hardly brainwashing.

Nonsense. Even if I would learn that someone truly “deserved” what they got, I would feel sorry for them. In order to “erase” that attitude a total brainwashing would be necessary. It is quite encouraging that many (maybe most) Catholics feel the same way.

Are you proposing those in heaven are mocking those in hell?

Why not? According to the “good doctor” (Aquinas): “The blessed in the kingdom of heaven will see the punishments of the damned, in order that their bliss be more delightful for them.” This is called Schadenfreude, a most despicable attitude.

It is odd that you would be so concerned about the eternal nature of something you claim to not believe in.

I am concerned about their current fright of their impending “doom”. Even if that doom is imaginary, their feelings are real.

It strikes me as disingenuous that you claim a concern for people whose beliefs you hold in such contempt.

I do not feel contempt for the people who are so misguided. Maybe you never learned empathy. I did.

 

[vz71]

Nonsense. Even if I would learn that someone truly “deserved” what they got, I would feel sorry for them. In order to “erase” that attitude a total brainwashing would be necessary.

You are still missing the point.
They chose hell.

And God, in spite of all the love he has is going to let them rather then force himself upon them.

 

[vz71]

Why not? According to the “good doctor” (Aquinas): “The blessed in the kingdom of heaven will see the punishments of the damned, in order that their bliss be more delightful for them.” This is called Schadenfreude, a most despicable attitude.

So is your argument against what you believe a saint believed or against what the church teaches?

St Thomas Aquinas was a very deep theologian.
Considering that you have been misreading so many posts just within this thread I find it doubtful that you have an understanding of his writing.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

You are still missing the point.
They chose hell.

And God, in spite of all the love he has is going to let them rather then force himself upon them.

That is called “baloney” or “bovine excrement”. There is no choice in the afterlife. And in this life no one says: “I want to go to hell! I want to be tortured until the end of eternity!”.

If you want to argue, do it rationally. Decent people would feel sorry for the “damned” ones. Only sadists would cheer at their disposition.

And in Aquinas’s opinion the “saved” are more delighted to see the suffering. You are the one who tries to cherry pick your argument. How can you argue against the “good doctor”? Are you more knowledgeable than he? And there is nothing ambiguous about the quote. There is nothing to interpret.

 

[vz71]

That is called “baloney” or “bovine excrement”. There is no choice in the afterlife. And in this life no one says: “I want to go to hell! I want to be tortured until the end of eternity!”.

If you want to argue, do it rationally. Decent people would feel sorry for the “damned” ones. Only sadists would cheer at their disposition.

And in Aquinas’s opinion the “saved” are more delighted to see the suffering. You are the one who tries to cherry pick your argument. How can you argue against the “good doctor”? Are you more knowledgeable than he? And there is nothing ambiguous about the quote. There is nothing to interpret.

The choice is made here and now.
In the hereafter you live with the choice.

And you are correct, it is not rational that people would choose anything but God. But many do every day.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

The choice is made here and now.
In the hereafter you live with the choice.

And you are correct, it is not rational that people would choose anything but God. But many do every day.

Until God manifests himself personally to all of us there is no “choice”. And also gives a guided tour of heaven and hell. Moreover, he spells out exactly and precisely what we are supposed to do and not to do. I understand that you have your faith, but that means nothing for others.

 

[GLam8833]

Being eternally separated from G-d rather than being forced to be in His presence against one’s will, as an indication of G-d’s justice and mercy, is one thing; but being eternally punished physically, emotionally, and spiritually for making the wrong choices in this life is, to my mind, quite another. Since I, a mere mortal, can feel pity for those who made such temporal choices in this earthly life and thus suffer eternal punishment, how, I wonder, can a Supreme Being not feel so much more pity for such humans, whom He created from the dust with an eternal soul? Would not then eternal separation from Him be enough punishment, minus the torture, which even most of us humans condemn as unjust and unmerciful behavior toward our worst enemy, whom Jesus commanded that we love?

That’s why God conceived the Church thru the Passion of
Christ, WE are constrained(by Christ at his last words record-
ed in Matt. 28, by the Holy Spirit, AND by Love) to preach
the gospel to ALL, so that SOME may heed and be saved.
See 1 Tim. 2:4. We will have all Eternity to regret those who
MIGHT have come to believe but have NOT heard or been
prayed for!! (Prov. 24:12)

 

[vz71]

Until God manifests himself personally to all of us there is no “choice”. And also gives a guided tour of heaven and hell. Moreover, he spells out exactly and precisely what we are supposed to do and not to do. I understand that you have your faith, but that means nothing for others.

He has.
Did you want a personal invite? He provides that as well.
God’s mercy is great, and the invitation is there for anyone that wishes.

As to spelling out what we should and shouldn’t do, he provided his church for that.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

He has.
Did you want a personal invite? He provides that as well.
God’s mercy is great, and the invitation is there for anyone that wishes.

You misunderstand. It is I, who issues the invitation, and God is the one who never shows up. My door is open, I am willing to listen.

As to spelling out what we should and shouldn’t do, he provided his church for that.

I am curious. Why do you think that the church is an authority for non-Catholics? And if it is not an authority, then its teachings are irrelevant. No one speaks for God, not you, not any of the believers, not even the pope and not the church. Only God could speak for himself, and he is simply gun-shy. Of course it is understandable. Anyone, who behaves as God does had better stay hidden.

The point still is that eternal torture is a sadistic idea, incompatible with a loving God.

 

[vz71]

You misunderstand. It is I, who issues the invitation, and God is the one who never shows up. My door is open, I am willing to listen.

Then why aren’t you?

 

[vz71]

The point still is that eternal torture is a sadistic idea, incompatible with a loving God.

God does not want any one of us in hell.
Every one of us is unique and precious.
He wants us all in heaven, but it is our choice.

If we want nothing of God, we are free to walk away.
As much as he loves us, he is willing to let us walk away rather then infringe on our freedom to choose.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Then why aren’t you?

Because God is silent. Please, don’t think that you, or anyone else, or the whole church is qualified to speak for God. Such an attitude is the apex of unwarranted and ludicrous pride. A huge dosage of humility is in order.

 

[Vonsalza]

The point still is that eternal torture is a sadistic idea, incompatible with a loving God.

The point still is that “everyone automatically, immediately enters heaven” is a naive idea, incompatible with a just God.

The ultimate fate of the damned is God’s alone to determine. He is ultimately unbound in His will. If hell ends up being a longer-term purgatory and all are thus ultimately redeemed, there’d be no way to know. It may be doubly stupid to clue folks in to that possible reality because “why be good?” becomes a very pertinent question.

*To the ultra-devout on the forum, the immediately prior was simply an insubstantial musing. Treat it as such.

 

[vz71]

Because God is silent. Please, don’t think that you, or anyone else, or the whole church is qualified to speak for God. Such an attitude is the apex of unwarranted and ludicrous pride. A huge dosage of humility is in order.

God sent us prophets, his son, his church, and his written word.
And I imagine there is a great deal of humility the church has in undertaking the responsibilities God has entrusted to his priests.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

The point still is that “everyone automatically, immediately enters heaven” is a naive idea, incompatible with a just God.

And the hell is incompatible with a loving (or merciful) God. By the way there would be nothing “unjust” by creating everyone directly into heaven, bypassing this existence. Everyone would “deserve” heaven before s/he committed any sins.

But your post is still important. It shows that “justice” and “mercy” are mutually exclusive. God might be “just” sometimes and “merciful” at other times, but cannot be BOTH “just” AND “merciful” at the same time. Though I have seen a few nincompoops who asserted just that.

 

[vz71]

But your post is still important. It shows that “justice” and “mercy” are mutually exclusive. God might be “just” sometimes and “merciful” at other times, but cannot be BOTH “just” AND “merciful” at the same time. Though I have seen a few nincompoops who asserted just that.

You assert the omnipotence of God and then assert he cannot be two things at once.

 

[ANV]

I pity the living.

 

[ArielRussu]

So a cage appears in Times Square. Nobody seems to know where it came from. It just appeared. And in the cage is a woman. She appears to be in tremendous pain, as if tormented by demons. As if being burnt.

Everyone is trying desperately to help her. There appears to be no way into the cage. Police and emergency workers arrive. They all try everything they can to free her, to no avail. Her screams are unbearable to hear. People turn away. They can’t bear to listen. People are beside themselves with frustration. It goes on for almost an hour. The whole of the square is cleared. There is no sound in the centre of NY except for the almost animal noises the tortured soul in the cage is making. It echoes down the empty streets – empty because no-one can help and no-one can bear to listen.

It continues for hours. The government is called in. The best minds in the country try to work out how to help this poor woman. The news goes international. Offers of help pour in but as the days go on, every suggestion fails. They cannot even move the cage.

Weeks pass and the whole of New York is deserted. Nobody can bring themselves to live anywhere near the continuous torment that this woman is enduring. Her husband has gone literally mad and some of her family and friends have even committed suicide because they can’t live with the thought of what this woman is going through.

Then one day a priest asks the authorities for a meeting. He knows what is happening. He knows what the woman is going through and why. He tells the authorities that she is being punished. But most think he is mad. What person could deserve what this woman is suffering? What crime could possible deserve such a punishment?

‘But she turned away from God,’ says the priest. It seems that the woman’s mother spent her whole life caring for the poor, for the disadvantaged. She sacrificed her life for others. She was an example to all. And one night she was killed driving home to see her grandchildren by a drunken driver running a red light.

The woman was beside herself. She went to her church and blasphemed God. The priest actually had it on tape:

“Haec credam a deo pio, a deo justo, a deo scito? Cruciatus in crucem. Tuus in terra servus, nuntius fui; officium perfeci. Cruciatus in crucem – eas in crucem.”

“She would not repent so she is being punished for it. You cannot help her”.

And the question is asked: ‘But if we cannot help her, how long must she endure this agony?’

‘Forever’, says the priest. ‘For all eternity. It will never end’.

With thanks to Aaron Sorkin, writer of The West Wing, for the Latin. youtube.com/watch?v=fYcMk3AJKLk

And it’s stories like this that make me wish I had never been born. If one never exists or died in the womb, one never has to experience the worry and fear of going to Hell and they never have to worry about possibly going there. Afterall, someone can live a life of a good Catholic but make one big mistake, die before they have the chance to confess it too a priest, and thus get sent too to Hell and suffer forever. And people wonder why many Catholics have scruples…