Do you place as much emphasis on His Eucharist as you do the Bible?

[rcwitness]

The sins of the OT saints were forgiven because of what Christ would do on the Cross:

Where is this leading?

 

[Wannano]

Btw, there is a largely varied view of His Eucharist among non-Catholics. But the most misunderstood view comes from Evangelicals, I think. For them, it is something that their tradition just can’t seem to grasp. But I have roots in the Evangelical faith, and know very good Christians with lots of Scriptural knowledge. In fact, if I did not choose to remain Catholic, I’m pretty certain I would become a member of an Evangelical church. But since I see a profound significance of His Eucharist, I am what I am.

Hi rc, you have given a very interesting reponse here! Jesus explained that we should “abide” with Him and He will abide in us. Am I correct in understanding that the way Catholics “abide with Christ” is to partake in the Eucharist?

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc, you have given a very interesting reponse here! Jesus explained that we should “abide” with Him and He will abide in us. Am I correct in understanding that the way Catholics “abide with Christ” is to partake in the Eucharist?

Yes.
John 6
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

 

[Peter_J]

That should be our approach overall!

However, Christ is revealed most directly in the Scriptures through His actions and person. For me, the Eucharist is important (unfortunately, and my pastor also takes issue with this, we only have it monthly because that is local Methodist tradition since the 1700s). That is the place where Christ is and we have the joy of receiving Him.

As a community, I really don’t see much attention paid to the Eucharist.

Yet, I do not see this emphasized nearly enough: we can experience Jesus in His presence through the Holy Spirit, especially during prayer or when in a holy place. Jesus Himself has to be the apex of the Christian life around which all other things revolve.

Good post.

 

[Wannano]

I have to. Without the Word and Sacrament ( of the Lord’s Supper), my One True Faith is incomplete. I need Jesus’ Body and Blood on a weekly basis to get me through.

Good morning ls, my question may seem like the dumbest question you have ever been asked…but that has not stopped me from asking sometimes! Do you experience a diminishing presence of Christ in your life during the days between Eucharists?

 

[JonNC]

Good morning ls, my question may seem like the dumbest question you have ever been asked…but that has not stopped me from asking sometimes! Do you experience a diminishing presence of Christ in your life during the days between Eucharists?

Do you experience a diminishing presence of Christ in your life on days that you do not read scripture?

I find a continued strengthening of faith ,and growth in grace as a result of both.

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Do you experience a diminishing presence of Christ in your life on days that you do not read scripture?

I find a continued strengthening of faith ,and growth in grace as a result of both.

Jon

My thoughts exactly.

 

[JonNC]

=alwayswill;14255250]as you asked this in the non-Catholic forum.
and you already know the non-Catholic view of the Eucharist.

I guess it depends on what one means by “non-Catholic”.

are you expecting non-Catholics to answer your question with a “yes”?

If I am to be considered non-Catholic, as in, not in communion with the pope, you are correct, the answer is yes.
Then again, I have always thought of Catholic as being more than just communion with the pope.

hear ya go…
As a sola scriptura practicing Christian; I do not place as much emphasis on the ordinance of Communion as I do the writings breathed out by God.

And yet His promise to feed us with His true body and blood is as scriptural - recounted at least four times - as anything else one might read there.

Jon

 

[alwayswill]

Yes.
John 6
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.

john 6:
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

47 Truly, truly, I say to you,** whoever believes has eternal life.**

54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

question:
In John 6:
What is it that produces eternal life?
Believing in Christ v40 or eating His flesh v54?

answer::
over 2 years before the Last Supper Jesus tells them:
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.

The same answer that is given throughout Scriptures: Believing in Christ gives eternal life.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever** believes** in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36

And back to the OP:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13

Where do we find the written words to that we may believe the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.?

We find “these things” in Scripture: And that is why we emphasize Scripture over Communion.

As this is the non-Cathoic forum: I believe I have accurately represented the views of the Reformed Protestant position.

 

[alwayswill]

I guess it depends on what one means by “non-Catholic”.

If I am to be considered non-Catholic, as in, not in communion with the pope, you are correct, the answer is yes.
Then again, I have always thought of Catholic as being more than just communion with the pope.

And yet His promise to feed us with His true body and blood is as scriptural - recounted at least four times - as anything else one might read there.

Jon

Is the Lutheran understanding of Communion that it is propitiatory?
Was the Last Supper propitiatory?
Is the wrath of God appeased at Communion?

As a sacrifice
“the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist,” (CCC, 1055) and “the Eucharist is also a sacrifice,” (CCC, 1365).

As a divine sacrifice
"For it is in the liturgy, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, that “the work of our redemption is accomplished,” (CCC, 1068).

As a representation of the sacrifice of Christ
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross,” (CCC, 1366).

Is ‘one single sacrifice’ with Christ’s sacrifice
“The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice,” (CCC, 1367).

It is the same sacrifice of Christ
“And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner,” (CCC, 1367).

It is propitiatory (removes the wrath of God)
" . . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory," (CCC, 1367).

To all who deny its propitiatory nature Trent pronounces anathema
“If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a ** propitiatory** sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.” (Trent: On the Sacrifice of the Mass: Canon 3);

It is called the sacrifice of Christ which is offered via the priest’s hands
“The sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests’ hands,” (CCC, 1369).

It is capable of making reparation of sins
“As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead,” (CCC, 1414).

It is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice
“The Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a ‘true and proper sacrifice,’” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: “Sacrifice of the Mass”).

 

[rcwitness]

john 6:
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

47 Truly, truly, I say to you,** whoever believes has eternal life.**

54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

question:
In John 6:
What is it that produces eternal life?
Believing in Christ v40 or eating His flesh v54?

answer::
over 2 years before the Last Supper Jesus tells them:
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.

The same answer that is given throughout Scriptures: Believing in Christ gives eternal life.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever** believes** in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 3:36

And back to the OP:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13

Where do we find the written words to that we may believe the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And that is why we emphasize Scripture over communion.

As this is the non-Cathoic forum: I believe I have accurately represented the views of the Reformed Protestant position.

Yes. Belief is not cancelled in Communion, but fed and nourished.

John 13
Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”
How can this be, if Peter already believed?

Mark 16

He whobelievesandisbaptized*will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Is Jesus adding something to belief???​

 

[alwayswill]

Yes. Belief is not cancelled in Communion, but fed and nourished.

John 13
Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”
How can this be, if Peter already believed?

Mark 16

He whobelievesandisbaptized*will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Is Jesus adding something to belief???
​

nope:
True believers long to follow the commands of God.

One of the first commands to believers: is get baptized

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20).
The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6).
The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10).
Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27),
love their brothers (1 John 3:14),
obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14),
do the will of God (Matthew 12:50),
abide in God’s Word (John 8:31),
keep God’s Word (John 17:6),
do good works (Ephesians 2:10),
and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14)

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith.
Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is real (1 John 2:3).
On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4).​

 

[Michael68]

Malachi 1:11 foretells the sacrifice of the Mass. 1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that the Church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[rcwitness]

nope:
True believers long to follow the commands of God.

One of the first commands to believers: is get baptized

One of His last was to Commune in His Body and Blood.

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith.
Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is real (1 John 2:3).
On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4).

Yes, that’s why it is crucial to place an emphasis on His Eucharist, and grow in the knowledge of why it is so important.

 

[alwayswill]

Malachi 1:11 foretells the sacrifice of the Mass. 1 Timothy 3:15 tells us that the Church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of truth.

fyi: you mis-qouted 1 Tim 3:15

You left out the definite article “the” which is included in the Greek.

and yes it matters:

for ex:

a pillar of gold
is different than
the pillar of the gold

in the first phase the pillar is gold
in the second phrase the pillar supports the gold

the Church is not the truth
the Church supports the truth…

I’m sure you want to correctly quote Scripture

 

[JonNC]

Is the Lutheran understanding of Communion that it is propitiatory?
Was the Last Supper propitiatory?
Is the wrath of God appeased at Communion?

The OP doesn’t go into those details. the question was do you place as much emphasis on on His Eucharist as you do on His word.
You presumed to speak for non-Catholics in your comment that I responded to. Respond as you choose, but don’t speak for others.

as you asked this in the non-Catholic forum.
and you already know the non-Catholic view of the Eucharist.

Which non-Catholic view are you speaking of?

Jon

 

[alwayswill]

The OP doesn’t go into those details. the question was do you place as much emphasis on on His Eucharist as you do on His word.
You presumed to speak for non-Catholics in your comment that I responded to. Respond as you choose, but don’t speak for others.

Which non-Catholic view are you speaking of?

Jon

While no one can speak for all Protestants:
I believe I accurately represented the views of MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, Washer, White, Grudem, Keller, etc…

And back to the OP:
The importance of the Eucharist compared to Scripture is directly related to whether or not it is propitiatory.

If Communion actually .appeases the wrath of God, that would make a huge difference in its importance.
It would literally be on the same level of Christ going to the Cross.

That’s why I asked:
Is the Lutheran understanding of Communion that it is propitiatory?
Was the Last Supper propitiatory?
Is the wrath of God appeased at Communion?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I don’t want to deny the importance of either. Both are essential. That’s why we kiss the gospels during matins and why we eat the Eucharist.

 

[wmscott]

fyi: you mis-qouted 1 Tim 3:15

You left out the definite article “the” which is included in the Greek.

and yes it matters:

for ex:

a pillar of gold
is different than
the pillar of the gold

in the first phase the pillar is gold
in the second phrase the pillar supports the gold

the Church is not the truth
the Church supports the truth…

I’m sure you want to correctly quote Scripture

So in context then

1 Timothy 3:15

RSV-CE 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

NIV 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

KJV 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Ver. 15. The pillar and ground of the truth. By the promises of Christ to direct his Church by the infallible spirit of truth; (see John 16:7; Matthew 28:20; &c. (Witham)) and therefore, the Church of the living God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruptions, superstition, or idolatry. (Challoner) — That the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, is to be conducted by the constant superintendence and guidance of the Holy Spirit into all truth to the consummation of days, every one whose mind is not strangely prejudiced may easily discover in various places of the inspired writings. (haydocks)

 

[alwayswill]

So in context then

1 Timothy 3:15

RSV-CE 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

NIV 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

KJV 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Ver. 15. The pillar and ground of the truth. By the promises of Christ to direct his Church by the infallible spirit of truth; (see John 16:7; Matthew 28:20; &c. (Witham)) and therefore, the Church of the living God can never uphold error, nor bring in corruptions, superstition, or idolatry. (Challoner) — That the Church, the pillar and ground of truth, is to be conducted by the constant superintendence and guidance of the Holy Spirit into all truth to the consummation of days, every one whose mind is not strangely prejudiced may easily discover in various places of the inspired writings. (haydocks)

Scripture tell of of 2 things that are the truth:
Jesus Christ John 14:6
The word of God: John 17:17

The Church (ekklesia; ALL believers) are called to uphold and support Christ and the word of God.

Scripture does NOT say the ekklesia is the THE truth.

The “correctness” of the ekklesia is compared to THE truth.