Do you prefer the OF or EF of Mass?

[Tis_Bearself]

I had 4 years of high school Latin and it was enough that I get the basic idea of what is going on. If I need to understand every word absolutely fluently, I use a Missal with a translation.

I don’t feel my Mass experience hangs on my understanding every single word of the Mass. I understand the most important parts of what is going on up there, and that’s enough. Sometime when I have time I’d like to get into it deeper and read Dom Prosper Guerlanger etc, but considering that there have been plenty of people throughout history who were completely illiterate in their own language let alone Latin, and they still managed to attend Masses and in many cases get something out of the Mass, I don’t think it’s necessary to be taking in every single word.

Then again I’m not terribly language-driven the way I see some other people are. We’ve had people right on this forum who lay awake nights when one word is changed in a prayer. I have other friends who are really concerned with the meaning or usage of certain words. I think this is overkill. Like I said, if I get the gist, that’s enough for me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So did all of these churches across these continents have all of their Masses in Latin only, pre-Vatican II?

Between the late 1500s and 1962, the vast majority of countries celebrated Mass in Latin only. The only exceptions I know of were a handful of Slavic countries that got permission to hold Mass in some Slavic language at some point.

 

[AugustTherese]

I use a Missal with a translation

Me too. However, every time I have went to a Latin EF, there was much spoken by the priest that was not in the translation guide; not only did I not understand what he was saying, but it threw me off of where we were in the translation guide - so, I ended up paging through the guide multiple times through the Mass trying to get back to the right place. It was significantly frustrating!

 

[Augustinian]

considering that there have been plenty of people throughout history who were completely illiterate in their own language let alone Latin, and they still managed to attend Masses and in many cases get something out of the Mass, I don’t think it’s necessary to be taking in every single word.

90% of all communication is non-verbal. The one thing about the Latin Mass was the very strict code of rules that the priest had to follow as far as his actions around the altar. An informed Catholic would be able to tell from the position and action of the priest to know exactly how the mass was progressing.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

There is generally a second hand out for the daily readings with those translations that aren’t in the Missal because they change every day. At least that’s how it’s done at my EF mass

 

[AugustTherese]

but considering that there have been plenty of people throughout history who were completely illiterate in their own language let alone Latin

But, being unable to read or write, i.e. illiteracy, in Latin is not what I am referring to. I am referring to being able to understand a Language by speaking and hearing.

 

[jas84173]

The “lesson” or normally an epistle and the gospel are first read in Latin but then the priest goes to the podium and says both in the vernacular and gives a homily normally. If you have a Missal which I have one for both forms you study it and eventually you know the prayers. It’s not that hard to follow along w a missal, in fact for me it keeps me focused instead of my mind wondering in the OF where it’s the same responses every time and I am forced to turn and shake people’s hands for who knows what reason since I already have greeted them, and the sign of peace is only a kiss of the altar in the EF.

You aren’t needed for the Mass to happen. If all of the parishioners decided not to to any responses which in my opinion are somewhat repetitive ( and not saying you should as it is very rude obviously and goes against the rubrics and GIRM) , however if no one but the priest said anything the Mass would still be valid.
As for your argument about the every word being important, yes it most certainly is. And in Tridentine Mass none of the lax mistakes I have witnessed in the OF happen. I have been to OF Mass where the wrong gospel has been read, terrible abuses in regards to the precious elements of the Eucharist.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think every Jew understands each word of Hebrew.

Oh, dear, I would hope so! That is their language!

It is my understanding that few American Jewish people “understand each word of Hebrew”. Most of them have memorized the important Jewish prayers in Hebrew and are aware of the translated meaning, but this is not the same as actually understanding the language. A percentage of them who have studied know some Biblical Hebrew, and the percentage is probably larger among Orthodox Jews. However, for all but a handful of scholars, the focus is on learning to pronounce the prayers correctly, not on reading Hebrew words with comprehension. In the same way, I’m pretty sure most of the Catholics who sing “Tantum Ergo Sacramentum” can pronounce the words of the hymn but could not translate word for word the lyrics or read them with comprehension.

 

[Spyridon]

Don’t forget Pali among Buddhists, Sanskrit among Hindus, and Church Slavonic, Aramaic, Syriac, Amharic, Coptic, Classical Armenian, and Geez among different Eastern and Oriental Christians.

Sacred language - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[AugustTherese]

It is my understanding that few American Jewish people “understand each word of Hebrew”. Most of them have memorized the important Jewish prayers in Hebrew and are aware of the translated meaning, but this is not the same as actually understanding the language.

I am referring to what is important in the context of worship (liturgy) only.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I addressed that.
They understand from a standpoint of reading the prayers and knowing what the translation is, as in my Tantum Ergo example.
If you gave them a page of Hebrew prayers with no translation and asked them to read with comprehension, most of them couldn’t do it. Some might be able to pronounce the words or give the gist of the thing but it’s not the same as understanding every word.

 

[AugustTherese]

If you gave them a page of Hebrew prayers with no translation and asked them to read with comprehension, most of them couldn’t do it. Some might be able to pronounce the words or give the gist of the thing but it’s not the same as understanding every word

Right. But, I am referring to fluently understanding the Latin only in the Mass, not the entire language itself.

 

[Spyridon]

The Catholic Church, long before the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican (‘Vatican II’) accepted and promoted the use of the non-vernacular liturgical languages such as Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, Syriac, Aramaic, Koine Greek, Ge’ez and Coptic; while vernacular (i.e. modern or native) languages were also used liturgically throughout history-- usually as a special concessions given to religious orders conducting missionary activity.

 

[jas84173]

As Pope Benedict XVl propagated in Summorum Pontificate
Art 1. The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (rule of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite. The Roman Missal promulgated by Saint Pius V and revised by Blessed John XXIII is nonetheless to be considered an extraordinary expression of the same lex orandi of the Church and duly honoured for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church’s lex orandi will in no way lead to a division in the Church’s lex credendi (rule of faith); for they are two usages of the one Roman rite.

**It is therefore permitted to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal, which was promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated, as an extraordinary form of the Church’s Liturgy.

 

[AugustTherese]

Of course! My questions pertain to those who consistently invite me to attend the EF Mass and I decline because of my ignorance and lack of Latin. It seems as though the majority who attend EF only do so because of the ‘reverence’ and ‘tradition’ and not to offer their entire selves in worship and sacrifice. @jas84173

 

[jas84173]

The epistle and gospel reading are read in vernacular. The homily is vernacular. Reading along with a missal if you want to know what is being said is just as engaging as making responses many Catholics don’t even understand why they are saying.

Not undermining the OF but it is true most laity really don’t ponder much that every part of the Mass has a sacred purpose.

 

[AugustTherese]

Reading along with a missal if you want to know what is being said is just as engaging as making responses many Catholics don’t even understand why they are saying.

Are you being serious?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have heard before that Church Slavonic was used in some of the Eastern/ Central European countries and I don’t doubt the rest of what you say; however, for the last couple hundred years before Vatican II, the Masses in Western Europe, the United States, Canada and probably Latin/ South America, were in Latin, with some exceptions perhaps (not in every case) for missionary outreach to indigenous peoples.

Masses were not said in French, German, English, etc.

 

[AugustTherese]

The Traditional Mass allows us to enter more deeply into the sublime Mysteries occurring on the altar

How so?

The Novus Ordo Mass, because it is offered in the vernacular, lends to the false impression that we are somehow “understanding” the ineffable Mystery that is taking place on the altar because we are able to understand the words that the priest is speaking, or even worse, that our intellectual assent somehow enables us to “get more” from the Mass.

That appears to be a non sequitur. Simply because an understandable language is used for an ecclesial tradition in Mass, it does not intrinsically downgrade the accessibility to the Sacred Mysteries; Mass is Mass.

The Traditional Latin Mass laudably eliminates the possibility of the faithful of falling into these pitfalls, because the majority of the faithful don’t know Latin, and for those that do, they cannot penetrate the inaudibility of the Canon

The gifted virtue of faith penetrates the inaudibility of the Canon, not a mere language or ‘tradition’, although they can help.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If people don’t understand the Mass in the vernacular, how much less will they understand it in Latin ?

Jim