Do you really believe that ?

[harmon3110]

I’m putting this under “vocations” because I think this falls under the general vocation that all Catholics have to live and keep the Gospel.

In another thread, I was flabberghasted at the arch conservative views of most of the respondents. They regarded a point of morality, which I personally believe is no big deal, as a very serious matter with potentially eternal consequences…

This intrigued me. I didn’t want to go off topic there, so I’m asking here:

Do you really believe that?

Namely, do you really believe that everything which the magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches is true ? Do you really believe that people who consciously choose to disregard or disobey those teachings are going to hell ? And, most curiously, what do you advise people who disagree with you ?

Please: don’t answer a question with a question. I’m not interested in a debate.

Instead, I’m interested in hearing from and understanding the arch conservatives who were busy posting on that other thread and like minded people. If you feel like expressing yourself and your beliefs, I would be genuinely interested to listen and to learn. Thank you.

 

[Closer]

1. Yes I do believe what the Magisterium says.
2. I believe that people who choose to disobey the Magisterium put themselves in great danger of going to hell. Only Christ makes that final call.
   3)I tell them them to learn more about their religion. Investigate the reasons behind the teachings. There is much more wisdom in the over 2000 years of teaching and learning from some of the greatest minds that have ever lived than anyone of us could have.

 

[Margita]

do you really believe that everything which the magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches is true ?

Yes. Here I stand - I cannot do otherwise.

Do you really believe that people who consciously choose to disregard or disobey those teachings are going to hell ?

Going against what I know to be the truth is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if I disregarded those teachings, and died in this sin, I would probably go to hell. But I emphasize “probably” - I do not know and nobody knows for certain. Those who say they know are wrong. Nobody knows who is going to hell and who is going to heaven except God. But I have to act as I know is right, and I have to do everything that is in my power to go to heaven. That includes avoiding a sin against the Holy Spirit.

And, most curiously, what do you advise people who disagree with you ?

Search your heart and pray for discernment, enlightenment from the Spirit, honesty to yourself and to people around you, be humble and open to the Holy Spirit. And be humble to the Church.

And please refrain from judgmental terms like “arch-conservative.” Obedience is not the same as arch-conservativism. Thank you.

 

[dmelosi]

It is going to be tough to add to the answers from Closer and Margita other than saying “ditto”.

 

[DiggidyDog]

It is going to be tough to add to the answers from Closer and Margita other than saying “ditto”.

ditto

 

[FCEGM]

Yes. Here I stand - I cannot do otherwise.

Going against what I know to be the truth is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if I disregarded those teachings, and died in this sin, I would probably go to hell. But I emphasize “probably” - I do not know and nobody knows for certain. Those who say they know are wrong. Nobody knows who is going to hell and who is going to heaven except God. But I have to act as I know is right, and I have to do everything that is in my power to go to heaven. That includes avoiding a sin against the Holy Spirit.

Search your heart and pray for discernment, enlightenment from the Spirit, honesty to yourself and to people around you, be humble and open to the Holy Spirit. And be humble to the Church.

And please refrain from judgmental terms like “arch-conservative.” Obedience is not the same as arch-conservativism. Thank you.

Amen! and dittoes!

 

[Titus]

It’s a matter of obedience as the others have said. But you’ll find it difficult to generate discussion on this issue… this place is pretty ‘conservative’ as you might put it, or as we might say, ‘obedient’. There are matters about church administration I have an issue with, but morality- 4square behind! Safest place to be!

 

[stbruno]

This may surprise you, but there are solid and stalwart reasons based on scripture and tradition that the magisterium bases their teachings on. They don’t make it up as the culture changes. They may respond to it but they don’t change it.

We may disagree with the politics of how the magisterium our Pope & bishops handle situtations but that is not disagreeing with the foundations of our faith.

As Catholics, we profess our faith at every mass…and to distance ourselves from the part that says, I believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church and then not follow what the church professes…who is the hypocrit here?

I think most of the time that there is dissent, people fall into the pitfalls of secularism, culture and even apathy. Fear of the Lord is almost non-existent too. More reasons to be a beacon to others. More reasons to get properly catechized, so that we can share the truth with others.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Namely, do you really believe that everything which the magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches is true ?

Yes I believe everything the magisterium teaches.

No I didn’t always believe.

Do you really believe that people who consciously choose to disregard or disobey those teachings are going to hell ?

I was, like Fr. Corapi put it, standing with one foot in Hell and the other on a banana peel.

This question is a funny one. On the one hand if we don’t believe such people are going to Hell, then what exactly is Hell and is there *anyone *there? If the above description doesn’t land a person in Hell I have to question whether Hell is real or not.

On the other hand, if I say “Yes” those people are going to Hell, then you will accuse me of being “judgemental” (I’m guilty one of the worst sins in the secular world).

However, since you are proposing a hypothetical situation, I am only condemning a hypothetical person. **If **a person consciously chooses to disregard and disobey the truth then that person would go to hell. Yes I agree - oh with one more condition and they die totally unrepentant. Now, do you know of any such people? Because it only takes a fraction of a second to repent, we’ll never really know if a person quietly, privately, repented as they drew their last breath. Therefore, even Hitler and Stalin have a ray of hope.

Now, what do you think the odds are that a person who railed against the truth all their lives would suddenly change their heart at their last moment? Slim, but possible.

Here’s the cool thing about Catholicism - we can stack the deck in our favor so that our odds of going to heaven are really, really good. Stacking the deck isn’t easy though.

It’s like trying to get $1million. You can buy a lottery ticket. Or you can educate yourself, work hard, take risks, invest time and money wisely - and your odds of becoming a millionare are pretty good.

And, most curiously, what do you advise people who disagree with you ?

There’s an ancient Greek formula for discerning the truths on certain matters. It has worked so well that it has built several civilizations. It’s called dialogue.

Dialogue assumes that truth is consistent with itself, and truth never changes, never contradicts itself. Dialogue completely rejects moral relativism. Dialogue assumes that a theory can be A)Completely correct B)partially correct or C) completely wrong.

So engage in dialogue. You present what you believe is the truth. We’ll cross examine you with questions to see if your beliefs hold merit. We’ll present what we believe is the truth and you can cross examine us. That’s dialogue.

Make time for this dialogue - it’s about important stuff. Yes your life is busy with work and other obligations, but if you give this dialogue a high priority - you’ll benefit greatly.

 

[kage_ar]

Ditto and Amen from here too

 

[carol_marie]

Ditto for me. I really believe that.

To go against the Magisterium would be the same as saying that I know better than the Pope?! I am smart - but not THAT smart - nor that educated or Holy.

I trust Jesus which means I trust His Church.

 

[buffalo]

I am an orthodox Catholic - and yes I believe. All orthodox Catholics do also. Liberal or Conservative Catholics are quite a different story.

 

[Margita]

I am an orthodox Catholic - and yes I believe. All orthodox Catholics do also. Liberal or Conservative Catholics are quite a different story.

A Catholic is a Catholic, period. There is no such thing as a “liberal” Catholic who is playing pick-and-choose with doctrine. There are no liberaly and conservatives, leftists or rightists here, this is not a democracy! You are either in or out.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

Namely, do you really believe that everything which the magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches is true ?

Yes.

Do you really believe that people who consciously choose to disregard or disobey those teachings are going to hell ?

I believe that it is not given to any of us to know who goes to Hell.

I’m not one of those people who believe that every last little thing you think/do/breathe/eat is a mortal sin – those people may be suffering from scrupulosity.

(I’m not an arch-conservative, and I posted here anyway; hope you don’t mind. )

Mudgie-in-training and freelance sparkle/coffee grinds sprinkler

 

[harmon3110]

So engage in dialogue. You present what you believe is the truth. We’ll cross examine you with questions to see if your beliefs hold merit. We’ll present what we believe is the truth and you can cross examine us. That’s dialogue.

No thank you. I have no desire to dialogue with you. I don’t want to raise my blood pressure, which I think would likely happen because I disagree with your views strongly. But, I was curious to learn your views. And I sincerely thank you for taking the time to express them to me.

I came to this Forum out of curiosity, and that has been pretty much satisfied. From what I can tell, folks here are far more conservative than I. So, I will not not be coming back here much more.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you really believe that?

Yes.

Namely, do you really believe that everything which the magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches is true?

All of these teachings come from Jesus, originally. The Magesterium is the vehicle of communication that Jesus uses to make His will known to us. This was promised to the Apostles many times.

I do not believe that it is possible for Jesus to lie to us or to deceive us, because He loves us so much.

Do you really believe that people who consciously choose to disregard or disobey those teachings are going to hell ?

Yes, since they have knowingly chosen to disobey Jesus. Jesus tells us that if we love Him, then we will obey His commandments. This is the sign by which He will know how much we love Him - by whether we obey His commandments, which come to us through the Magesterium of the Church.

Those who do not love Jesus certainly will not go to Heaven. Indeed, I am sure that they would not wish to go to Heaven, since in Heaven, we obey Jesus 100% of the time.

And, most curiously, what do you advise people who disagree with you?

Pray for greater faith in Jesus. A simple prayer that comes from the Bible that you can use is, “Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.”

Ask Jesus to help you learn to love Him more and more each day. As you love Him more and more, obedience to His commands will become easier and easier.

 

[harmon3110]

A Catholic is a Catholic, period. There is no such thing as a “liberal” Catholic who is playing pick-and-choose with doctrine. There are no liberaly and conservatives, leftists or rightists here, this is not a democracy! You are either in or out.

While I respect your right to have an opinion, I think this one is inaccurate. There are many, many people in the Catholic Church who do not believe like you. There are liberal Catholics, moderate Catholics, and conservative Catholics. They pick and choose the beliefs that work for them, and they go to Mass on Sundays (and other days, sometimes), and they receive Communion (and the other sacraments), and they live their lives. Have the last word; I’m sure you will, based upon your other posts. But, an attitude such as yours --judgemental and self righteous-- is unconvincing of the truth and desireability of your views; instead, it makes your views repellant. I disagree with Black Jaque, and he disagrees with me, but at least I respect him because of the sincerity and civility with which he expressed his desire to have a dialogue with me. Take care, and be well.

 

[harmon3110]

Thank you, everybody, for posting your views. I sincerely mean that. I disagree with your views, but I was genuinely curious to learn them, and I thank you for taking the time to respond.

I came to this Forum out of curiosity, and that is now satisfied. The views at this forum are far too conservative for me.

Take care, and be well.

 

[kage_ar]

Why would you stay in a faith you do not agree with? How could you honestly say “AMEN” at every Mass when you do not agree?

 

[Margita]

Have the last word; I’m sure you will, based upon your other posts. But, an attitude such as yours --judgemental and self righteous-- is unconvincing of the truth and desireability of your views; instead, it makes your views repellant. I disagree with Black Jaque, and he disagrees with me, but at least I respect him because of the sincerity and civility with which he expressed his desire to have a dialogue with me. Take care, and be well.

I certainly did not mean to be judgmental or self-righteous. How do you know I have no scruples, or internal battles to fight with what the Church teaches? But I can only post here as I believe and as I have always been taught to believe.
As for dialogue - well, you were clear enough about not wanting to engage in dialogue with anybody.

And as for the last word: I apologize if I have offended you.