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tonyrey
Guest
How do you reconcile these views with belief in God?
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Khalid
Guest
The above logic (that is, what is called the anti-natalist position) holds true if and only if this life is all there is (that is, if materialism is true). At the time of my holding the position, I first believed in the opposite of universalism (as a Muslim, I logically concluded that every soul that was ever born would be cast in to Hell), and later did not believe in an afterlife or God. The existence of a positive afterlife negates the premises, and thus falsifies the conclusion, of that line of reasoning.
I pointed out in irony that holding anti-natalist views is enough to get one ostracized even amongst materialists/atheists/agnostics, in a prime example of instinct overriding reason, because as surely as the existence of a possible positive afterlife nullifies the line of reasoning used, the line of reasoning is absolutely valid and completely unavoidable for a materialist who does not belief in the afterlife. Thus, any materialist (atheist) who has ever spent one second of thought on the issue of life, either is an anti-natalist, or has a head filled with cognitive dissonance (although most materialists already have so much cognitive dissonance that another truck-load isn’t going to be noticed).
I stopped holding that belief (at least in the universal sense) because, as I said, “If God and/or an afterlife don’t exist”… The foundational premise (that suffering in a life will always outweigh non-suffering, and no amount of happiness, short of infinity, can compensate for even a moment of suffering) is destroyed by the existence of Heaven (which, by definition, is infinite happiness, thus outweighing any suffering).
Now that I know that God exists and the afterlife exists, suffering in this world has the possibility of ending in a net gain (Heaven, that is, infinite happiness).
I still personally regret existing, even though I realize it has to be a sin of some kind (as if I was never born, I would never have a chance for salvation: but, if I wasn’t born, the concept of “heaven” wouldn’t matter - or even exist - to me), as it constitutes a rejection of God’s providence and the desire to make myself lord over God’s decree (albeit not consciously or willingly, but instinctively or melacholically). I just no longer argue for it, nor generalize it on to all human life, due to the premises being faulty.
For those who will go to Hell, the above argument holds with infinitely (literally) more force.
I pointed out in irony that holding anti-natalist views is enough to get one ostracized even amongst materialists/atheists/agnostics, in a prime example of instinct overriding reason, because as surely as the existence of a possible positive afterlife nullifies the line of reasoning used, the line of reasoning is absolutely valid and completely unavoidable for a materialist who does not belief in the afterlife. Thus, any materialist (atheist) who has ever spent one second of thought on the issue of life, either is an anti-natalist, or has a head filled with cognitive dissonance (although most materialists already have so much cognitive dissonance that another truck-load isn’t going to be noticed).
I stopped holding that belief (at least in the universal sense) because, as I said, “If God and/or an afterlife don’t exist”… The foundational premise (that suffering in a life will always outweigh non-suffering, and no amount of happiness, short of infinity, can compensate for even a moment of suffering) is destroyed by the existence of Heaven (which, by definition, is infinite happiness, thus outweighing any suffering).
Now that I know that God exists and the afterlife exists, suffering in this world has the possibility of ending in a net gain (Heaven, that is, infinite happiness).
I still personally regret existing, even though I realize it has to be a sin of some kind (as if I was never born, I would never have a chance for salvation: but, if I wasn’t born, the concept of “heaven” wouldn’t matter - or even exist - to me), as it constitutes a rejection of God’s providence and the desire to make myself lord over God’s decree (albeit not consciously or willingly, but instinctively or melacholically). I just no longer argue for it, nor generalize it on to all human life, due to the premises being faulty.
For those who will go to Hell, the above argument holds with infinitely (literally) more force.
meltzerboy
New member
As Edith Piaf said: “Je ne regrette rien.” (I regret nothing.) This is mainly because of all the love and joy I’ve experienced in life despite the times of pain and suffering.
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tonyrey
Guest
Suffering is an inevitable consequence of love because we become more vulnerable. The more people we care about the more likely we are to experience grief…
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unikvic
Guest
I’m not sure. Why should I anyway? If it’s about leaving, maybe I have; but not suicide wise.
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Bix
Guest
Not nearly as I should… I thank Him for my life and all He has blessed upon me.How do you express your gratitude?
I thank Him for the trials and growth received. (mind you, I’m much better at doing this after the fact rather than during…)
I thank Him for the many miracles even the small ones most would discount. I ask forgiveness for my sins.
I try…TRY… To live and be the person I should be according to our Lord’s example, but fail often. I think that’s human or I would have to live in seclusion to truly live as our Lord hopes for us.
I keep faith no matter how dire or prolonged the circumstances.
In the past I’ve served by teaching a children’s class in church as well as children’s choir.
I can usually spot people who are in pain or going through a difficult time and tend to be be a magnet to them- I listen, try to help and offer testimony. Currently, I’m begging for where and what direction He wants me to go - it’s taking quite a long time to receive an answer on this one so, if you remember me in a passing prayer it would be appreciated!
As I said, not nearly as I should.
I try and will try harder to show my appreciation.
Sadly, after reading what I’ve typed; I guess I only try…
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Safia
Guest
I did go through a period during which I wished I hadn’t been – I had a poor, very unhealthy relationship with my father, and he made my life Hell. I happened to go through a period of deep agnosticism at approximately the same time, which was absolutely no help.
Today? Never again.
That God loved me enough to give me control over my life, in the sense that I can choose Him and choose holiness and fight to be perfect for Him, is enough. I want nothing else.
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tonyrey
Guest
We are all in the same boat but not everyone would be so humble…Not nearly as I should… I thank Him for my life and all He has blessed upon me.
I thank Him for the trials and growth received. (mind you, I’m much better at doing this after the fact rather than during…)
I thank Him for the many miracles even the small ones most would discount. I ask forgiveness for my sins.
I try…TRY… To live and be the person I should be according to our Lord’s example, but fail often. I think that’s human or I would have to live in seclusion to truly live as our Lord hopes for us.
I keep faith no matter how dire or prolonged the circumstances.
In the past I’ve served by teaching a children’s class in church as well as children’s choir.
I can usually spot people who are in pain or going through a difficult time and tend to be be a magnet to them- I listen, try to help and offer testimony. Currently, I’m begging for where and what direction He wants me to go - it’s taking quite a long time to receive an answer on this one so, if you remember me in a passing prayer it would be appreciated!
As I said, not nearly as I should.
I try and will try harder to show my appreciation.
Sadly, after reading what I’ve typed; I guess I only try…
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tonyrey
Guest
Suffering either makes us or mars us. There’s no doubt which is true of you!
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prodigalson2011
Guest
This resonates with me strongly. I just returned to the Church last summer as well and I, too, had an unhealthy relationship with my father when I was young, and also became agnostic, and later an out and out atheist. It’s funny how we project our relationship with our fathers onto God.
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PeterGStanley
Guest
Some people do get those fairytale lives , but I am not one of them.My life is been full of doubt , failure disappointment - you name it - I don’t want to think back - but when things got or get really bad I always turn strongly to my faith and it has never let me down and got me through the tough times . Its been a struggle and I have regretted being born - but I’m not a coward and will battle to the end - all I can do is move forward - some people here will never understand these feelings but then they don’t live a life like my life. I don’t look for any pity I will run the race and seek the prize - St Paul is my greatest inspiration.
Who know why for some of us life is a struggle and others it all falls into place - I stopped thinking about it and just accept it.
Who know why for some of us life is a struggle and others it all falls into place - I stopped thinking about it and just accept it.
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Robertanthony
Guest
I was born in a lineage stained by many evils: alcoholism, depression, learning disability, incest, suicide, anxiety, moral shabbiness etc. My mother got very isolated and anxious because of external circumstances when she was pregnant with me, it got to the point when she wished she would miscarry. I wonder what’s worse: for a pregant woman to wish to miscarry or for a mother to lack judgment enough to tell her kid about it. I have a flawed personality, cognitively I’m a big zero, I have to live this life, face the world with a very poor vehicle (me), I get to see in people’s eyes how pathetic they think I am because I’m miserably slow on the uptake, good things happen to me, but everywhere I go I can never escape the pathetic human being I am, at some point it was made crystal clear to me that I was not good enough for people, bright, self-confident people expect to be liked because they have a track record of being accepted, I have the opposite record. I think my mother not getting what she wanted from God when she was pregnant with me will occupy a lot of my thoughts in the afterlife.
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LifeIsAbsurd
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No way! Life’s an incredible adventure.
The few times life’s been particularly trying, I asked myself what I would do if anything were permitted… and then I remembered… it is! I am a force of change in my own life, and I can remake it as I see fit, within reason.
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LifeIsAbsurd
Guest
You actually don’t! Life is a choice. Some choose suicide or to live in a manner that’s not particularly life-sustaining (for example, giving away 10% of their income to please a magical being they believe exists… or becoming an adventurer!)
Is this real or imagined? I can imagine some small percentage of people seeing you that way, but most humans I know don’t see others who have disabiities as pathetic. I have met many people who imagined that others looked at them that way. A mismatch between your perceptions and reality can detract from your quality of life and a good therapist can often help.
If you’re in the bottom 20% intelligence-wise, you may have fewer doors available to you in life. Still, the life you have now is all that is certain. I would do whatever is in your power to find a way to enjoy your life. Accept your faults, identify your strengths, and be the best you that you can be, in terms of pursuing your own happiness! Best of luck, mate.
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Robertanthony
Guest
If you were to train someone for a simple job where few simple things had to be learnt, you’d lose patience pretty quickly if you had to repeat things over and over because it never seems to sink in. Best I can except is for people to tolerate me. Of course I as a human being have the same need for approval, recognition, friendship, bonding as the most gifted of us all, guess who will get their needs met? I resent being alive with the kind of life my cognitive mediocrity gives me access to. Can you imagine getting up everyday to be a janitor or a security guard when you could go island hopping in the Bahamas? I didn’t get the intellectual potential, I’ll gladly take the money. The world is vast, full of possibilities, ample resources to match one’s wildest dreams, fascinating people to meet, but I’m stuck in the gutter because I’m dumb.You actually don’t! Life is a choice. Some choose suicide or to live in a manner that’s not particularly life-sustaining (for example, giving away 10% of their income to please a magical being they believe exists… or becoming an adventurer!) Theoratically, you’re right. But there is something in me, I don’t know if we can call it an “instinct” that makes it tough to end it all. There is always the nagging thought (what if a dramatic break was just around the corner) , the fear of hell and the fear to be worse off after a failed suicide attempt.
Is this real or imagined? I can imagine some small percentage of people seeing you that way, but most humans I know don’t see others who have disabiities as pathetic. I have met many people who imagined that others looked at them that way. A mismatch between your perceptions and reality can detract from your quality of life and a good therapist can often help.
Years ago I’ve had someone make a joke about me using a pun with my name and a derogatory term describing someone with very low IQ, it made everyone around giggle and exchange winks, of course being not very shrewd or sharp I was the last one to catch on.
If you’re in the bottom 20% intelligence-wise, you may have fewer doors available to you in life. Still, the life you have now is all that is certain. I would do whatever is in your power to find a way to enjoy your life. Accept your faults, identify your strengths, and be the best you that you can be, in terms of pursuing your own happiness! Best of luck, mate.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
No. Even in the midst of my depressive episodes, I do not regret having been born. Never. I might wish for my life to be over, because I feel exhausted from life, and am depressed, but I never EVER wished that I hadn’t been born.
I think I’ve improved the world just by my presence!
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
If it is possible for you to seek counseling, I would urge you to do so. Life can be better than this. You are a precious child of God, and I wish you knew that. Your post makes my heart ache. No matter what your family background, you are completely loved and cherished by God! And you are not trapped but can rise above it. Even simply surviving is a triumph of sorts.
:console:
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prodigalson2011
Guest
I can tell from your writing, Robert, that you are far from dumb. “Dumb” people wouldn’t describe themselves as “cognitively mediocre.”
I didn’t have as rough of a childhood as you, but I share some of your impediments. You exhibit a great deal of clarity in your writing. Maybe this is a strength you should focus on?
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Robertanthony
Guest
I can always appreciate kind-hearted people. Thanks to both of you. About the cognitive mediocrity, I think it says nicely what I’m trying to convey, but at the same time, nothing has ever hurt me more than being discarded as an idiot, so I’ve always worked extra hard to hide my shameful secret, one of the strategies to that end is to try to use the best terms to express my thoughts, people will tend to not think of someone who uses the word “propensity” as a dummy. My destiny is to try my very best to come across as reasonably intelligent, of course loneliness is the price to pay, but loneliness is way better than outright rejection.
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tonyrey
Guest
To some extent life is determined by chance but we can overcome our misfortune if we are sufficiently determined. I read the life of Abraham Lincoln when I was a boy and was deeply impressed by his determination to overcome his disadvantages but obviously your faith in St Paul is a more direct Christian source of inspiration (although he didn’t have the problem of poverty). I’m sure others will agree when I say you are in our prayers…
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