Do you see yourself as a Catholic first, or a Christian first?

[markomalley]

Recently I was talking to someone who I thought was a pretty staunch Catholic and he made the comment that he saw himself as a Christian first, moreso than a Catholic.

More recently when I have done or said something stupid a work colleague has lightheartedly said something like " I thought you were a Christian, you shouldn’t be saying things like that". On other occasions some others have commented about “the Christian thing to do…” etc

Now, that has got me thinking. How do we see ourselves foremost, a Catholic, or a Christian? Does it matter?

The two terms are utterly synonymous. For those who claim to follow Christ, they are either Christians who follow the teachings of Christ, as handed down by His apostles and preserved through the Church He created, or they are heretics (not to include those who heresy has become so severe as to breach the divide of apostasy).

 

[christosdavid]

When you say ‘I’m Christian’, people automatically presume you’re protestant from what I have seen.

like the early Christians? the faith which we have that has been handed down faithfully?

“The Christians to the lion!” “What? All of them to the one lion?” (Tertullian)

 

[TrueLight]

I agree with those who said that to be fully Christian is to be Catholic. This is how I see myself.

However, if I am speaking with someone who is not familiar with my religion, I will clarify things, like say that I am a Catholic Christian. If I’m speaking to a Protestant I will say I am Catholic.

The question is an interesting one. It is true that if I am speaking to a Protestant, I say I am Catholic. However, at different times, I might say, “As Christians…”

I identify more as a Catholic these days.

Lord, have mercy.

How anyone could believe such a thing and yet profess to be Catholic I have no clue. Catholicism is not a faction. It’s not one among many. All those who are in Heaven are Catholic. To believe otherwise is heresy. For those who professed to be Orthodox while on earth, they are now Catholic and have professed the fullness Catholic faith.

That’s because Constantine is becoming more and more Orthodox in belief, as he is essentially an Eastern Catholic.

However, I agree with him to a certain degree.

If you don’t believe that other Christians will never get to heaven, then of course what he is saying sounds ridiculous. I do believe that there are Christian Saints in heaven who are not Catholic in the sense that they are part of the Universal Christian Church, but were not Catholic while alive.

In the end, we are Christ followers - Christians.

“Christian is my name, and Catholic is my surname. The one designates me, while the other makes me specific. Thus am I attested and set apart. . . . When we are called Catholics it is by this appellation that our people are kept apart from any heretical name” (Three Letters to the Novatianist Sympronian 1:4 [A.D. 379]).

-Pacian of Barcelona

There you go!

 

[christosdavid]

the question after this one of course is what adjective do you modify Catholic with?

At least Roman… perhaps modernist or progressive… conservative or traditionalist? Italian? Irish?

When I have to identify what part of the Catholic church I belong to, then the previous adjective of Catholic may end up being meaningless…

 

[A_Catholic]

I second this. Catholicism is not a denomination. Catholicism is the Church of Christ. Any other ‘churches’ are denominations which are simply places of heresy and false teachings.

Is calling protestant churches ‘false teachings’ wrong? I dont think so, once we try to add or subtract from the truth it is no longer the truth.

I completely agree. Any faith that rejects the Eucharist - which Christ tells us we must have in order to have life - is a heresy. That is not to say that all these churches are knowingly rejecting Christ, but that is in essence what they are doing. I can look at food and say it is bad for me and refuse to eat, believing that with all my heart. But as sincere as I am, if I don’t eat, I will die. Protestant beliefs are, by their nature, heretical. That is how they were founded - rejecting the true church of Christ, the Catholic Church. They look at Christ as their Saviour, but they reject the true path to Him, which is the Catholic Church.

 

[christosdavid]

The question is an interesting one.

…

If you don’t believe that other Christians will never get to heaven, then of course what he is saying sounds ridiculous. I do believe that there are Christian Saints in heaven who are not Catholic in the sense that they are part of the Universal Christian Church, but were not Catholic while alive.

In the end, we are Christ followers - Christians.

There you go!

 

[A_Catholic]

The two terms are utterly synonymous. For those who claim to follow Christ, they are either Christians who follow the teachings of Christ, as handed down by His apostles and preserved through the Church He created, or they are heretics (not to include those who heresy has become so severe as to breach the divide of apostasy).

Since Protestants do not follow the teachings of Christ handed down by the apostles and preserved through the Church he created, does that make them heretics? And if they are heretics, does that mean they are not Christians in the truest sense of the word? Does just recognizing Christ as your Saviour make you a Christian, or must you accept the teachings and dogma of the one and only true Church that He founded? Can you accept the teachings of a Church founded by a mere man and still be a true Christian?

 

[christosdavid]

Since Protestants do not follow the teachings of Christ handed down by the apostles and preserved through the Church he created, does that make them heretics? And if they are heretics, does that mean they are not Christians in the truest sense of the word?

This seems to be very narrow… Many Protestants, particularly those engaged as exegetes really do want to follow the teachings of Christ as well as the Apostles. The Catholic Church (the Magesterium) accepts that Protestants have a valid baptism, graces of the Holy Spirit and have true martyrs (missionaries in Africa, India, Asia, Pacific).

Think theologically, if they have a true baptism, they are regenerate, they are adopted as sons of God, just as we are.

There is after all only one adoption as sons, Protestants are seperated brethren, brothers praying the same our Father to the same Father we pray to.

 

[A_Catholic]

This seems to be very narrow… Many Protestants, particularly those engaged as exegetes really do want to follow the teachings of Christ as well as the Apostles. The Catholic Church (the Magesterium) accepts that Protestants have a valid baptism, graces of the Holy Spirit and have true martyrs (missionaries in Africa, India, Asia, Pacific).

Think theologically, if they have a true baptism, they are regenerate, they are adopted as sons of God, just as we are.

There is after all only one adoption as sons, Protestants are seperated brethren, brothers praying the same our Father to the same Father we pray to.

They pray to the same God, but they reject His church and the teachings of that Church, and instead belong to churches, or religious communities, as they are more rightly called, that follow the teachings of men. You call them separated brethren - what separates them? The rejection of Christ’s true church, and what I always come back to, the rejection first and foremost of the Eucharist, which we must have to have eternal life. They also emphatically reject the Vicar of Christ - the Pope. That would make them heretics.

 

[christosdavid]

They pray to the same God, but they reject His church and the teachings of that Church, and instead belong to churches, or religious communities, as they are more rightly called, that follow the teachings of men. You call them separated brethren - what separates them? The rejection of Christ’s true church, and what I always come back to, the rejection first and foremost of the Eucharist, which we must have to have eternal life. They also emphatically reject the Vicar of Christ - the Pope. That would make them heretics.

What seperates them these days is 500 years of culture. The Protestants born today are not Martin Luther or John Calvin… They are descendants of countries that completely moved away from the Pope and the Eucharist.

For example, the Churches of England and Scotland which moved in entirity under pain of death for treason (which happened on both sides, many times). The current generation of Protestants who live in these countries have not rejected the Church, Pope or Eucharist.

These people are born live and die, from baptism to funeral service trusting in the grace of God. Is it God who is without Grace? Do their prayers bounce of the sky on the way to heaven? Does the Father give a stone instead of bread? or a snake instead of the Holy Spirit?

 

[TrueLight]

What seperates them these days is 500 years of culture. The Protestants born today are not Martin Luther or John Calvin… They are descendants of countries that completely moved away from the Pope and the Eucharist.

For example, the Churches of England and Scotland which moved in entirity under pain of death for treason (which happened on both sides, many times). The current generation of Protestants who live in these countries have not rejected the Church, Pope or Eucharist.

These people are born live and die, from baptism to funeral service trusting in the grace of God. Is it God who is without Grace? Do their prayers bounce of the sky on the way to heaven? Does the Father give a stone instead of bread? or a snake instead of the Holy Spirit?

Exactly.

I think people who cannot fathom that a Protestant can be a true servant of God, falls into several categories:

– those who do not have any devout Protestant Christians as friends
– converts who were raised in some sort of wacky Protestant cult or was burned by a Protestant church and now ascribe the properties of that church to all Protestant Churches. They are some of the more vociferous in denouncing that a Protestant can be saved.

I have encountered some wacky churches, but I have also seen many devout (more devout than a lot of Catholics), Protestants who live live self-denying lives in His service.

In fact, let us not forget there are Protestant martyrs who died for the cause of Christ.

We are in the Church that Jesus founded and we should pray for the souls of our Protestant brothers and sisters, so that they might turn away from their errors and return to the Church. AsGod says in Hosea 4:6, “My people perish for lack of knowledge.”

But never doubt that God rewards the righteous.

 

[christosdavid]

Exactly.

I think people who cannot fathom that a Protestant can be a true servant of God, falls into several categories:

– those who do not have any devout Protestant Christians as friends
– converts were raised in some sort of wacky Protestant cult or was burned by a Catholic church and now ascribes the properties of that church to all Protestant Churches

I have encountered some wacky churches, but I have also seen many devout (more devout than a lot of Catholics), Protestants who live lives worthy of their calling.

Good call… The problem is that there isn’t any one Protestant camp. Theologically and practically they are quite diverse.

Even Archbishop Lefreve commented that compared to liberal catholics, it may be the Protestants who have a faith more like our own, which believes in the doctrines of the Trinity, virgin birth, miracles, the incarnation, the atonement and the physical resurrection of Jesus. (An open letter to confused Catholics, Angelus Press).

Of course, I cannot include oneness Pentecostals or other modalists, JW or Mormons. Most Protestants would also exclude these sects.

 

[daCatholicGuard]

I think I would have to technically disagree with this statement. The Catholic Chuch is the one and only true Church founded by Jesus Christ. This is the only place where salvation can be found. Jesus Christ did not found the Jewish or Muslim religions. Granted, Christ was a Jew and they, along with all the other Israelite tribes, were the people of God in the Old Testament. However, the covenant of God went from Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus Christ to the Catholic Church. It is no coincidence that in the Traditional Latin Mass, we speak of Abraham, our patriach, not the patriarch of the Israelites. The Sacrifice and the priesthood were taken away from the Jews and given to the Catholic Church. That is why the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. That is why the Jews are no longer able to offer the daily sacrifice. The Mass is now the daily sacrifice on earth, and I believe that if the Sacrifice of the Mass - the re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ - was not offered every day on this earth, our sins would bring the wrath of God down upon this earth and destroy us. Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist services - none of these can compare to the importance of the Mass. And therefore none of these religions can compare to the Catholic Church.

The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. That does not mean that you must be on a church membership list somewhere to be saved. This, I believe, is where Divine Mercy comes in. St. Faustina tells us that Christ calls out to everyone, constantly extending His Mercy. I believe that He is calling each one of us at every moment in our lives, and that we have a chance at salvation right up to the last moment of our lives. The example of the good thief on the cross tells us that. So no matter what religion you are or no religion, Christ is calling you. Being a good Jew, Muslim, Buddhist means nothing to God. It is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that will save us, not our good works. So if a non-Christian is saved, it will have nothing to do with their good works. It will be because at some point they accepted the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which comes through the Catholic Church. That is why we never judge anyone, not the most heinous sinner. Even someone like Adolph Hitler could have repented at the last moment and been saved. Good works do not save us. Only Jesus Christ saves us.

I also disagree with the “Anonymous Christian” theory.

Hello A Catholic, Khalid, et al,

Thank you for pointing this out; I must admit, what I said was based on private meditations of mine- I never knew these thoughts of mine actually had a name (Anonymous Christian) and had been analyzed. It seems it is accepted by the New Church but condemned by the Tridentine Church and the Fundamentalists.

I don’t know what to think now; since there doesn’t seem to be consensus on this. I held this view based on the fact that if someone spent their life devoting themselves to God, (even through the wrong venue), that God, in His Infinite Mercy would not neglect one who spent their life trying to serve Him. I like what you say about Saint Faustina’s revelations and how God calls out to everyone (at the time of their death); so one can say that is how His Infinite Mercy is realized. Please know; it was never my intention to scandalize anyone in their faith- but rather support it.

In passing; however, I should also say that your views seem a little too Fundamentalist in tone; because I was always taught we need BOTH faith AND good works to merit Heaven- please consider MT 25:32-46.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight2:

 

[NewsTheMan]

The Protestants born today are not Martin Luther or John Calvin.

So? Just because modern Protestants are not formal heretics they are still inolved in material heresy.

The current generation of Protestants who live in these countries have not rejected the Church, Pope or Eucharist.

Yes they have. Invincible ignorance certainly cannot be applied to them. They are either willfully ignorant, willfully rejecting the Church or they have a genuine ‘excuse’. However, we’ll let God be the judge.

I think people who cannot fathom that a Protestant can be a true servant of God

It depends on how you cash out “true servant of God”. A true servant of God will always respond to His grace, and His grace will always lead them into the Catholic Church. So how much can any non-Catholic be responding to His grace if they are not within the Catholic Church [barring extraordinary circumstances such as threat of violence etc].

I have encountered some wacky churches, but I have also seen many devout (more devout than a lot of Catholics), Protestants who live live self-denying lives in His service.

Sure. Same can be said for Hindu’s and Bhuddist monks. It doesn’t make them right. We should feel sorry for them because they are doing all this outside the Catholic Church.

We are in the Church that Jesus founded and we should pray for the souls of our Protestant brothers and sisters, so that they might turn away from their errors and return to the Church. AsGod says in Hosea 4:6, “My people perish for lack of knowledge.”

I agree!

Good call… The problem is that there isn’t any one Protestant camp. Theologically and practically they are quite diverse.

Which is exactly what is dangerous about protestantism. It’s not exactly great apologetics to advertise that they are so divergent on their heresies.

It seems it is accepted by the New Church but condemned by the Tridentine Church and the Fundamentalists.

No such thing as New Church or Tridentine Church.

 

[A_Catholic]

In passing; however, I should also say that your views seem a little too Fundamentalist in tone; because I was always taught we need BOTH faith AND good works to merit Heaven- please consider MT 25:32-46.

Oremus pro invicem,

Sean C. :knight2:

This is how I see it. We have all inherited a deadly disease called Original Sin. It is spiritual AIDS. There is nothing any of us can do to be healed of it. The only cure for Original Sin is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That is where faith comes in. No amount of good works can cure Original Sin, or mortal sin, for that matter. It is only the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. However, once we have been cured, that is where the works come in. Again, the works we do will not save us. But they will keep us spiritually healthy. If someone should be cured of AIDS, they need to now live a healthy lifestyle. If they go back to what they were doing that got them infected in the first place, they will be re-infected. If once we are forgiven of our sins - which only Jesus Christ can do - we must remain free of sin. If we go back, we lose our salvation. So in that sense it is faith and good works. But the good works of and by themselves have no salvific value. That is why just being a "Good Jew, a "Good Muslim, a “Good Buddhist” is not enough.

 

[A_Catholic]

So? Just because modern Protestants are not formal heretics they are still inolved in material heresy.

I think that says it all. Thank you!

 

[christosdavid]

So? Just because modern Protestants are not formal heretics they are still inolved in material heresy.

Yes they have. Invincible ignorance certainly cannot be applied to them. They are either willfully ignorant, willfully rejecting the Church or they have a genuine ‘excuse’. However, we’ll let God be the judge.

It depends on how you cash out “true servant of God”. A true servant of God will always respond to His grace, and His grace will always lead them into the Catholic Church. So how much can any non-Catholic be responding to His grace if they are not within the Catholic Church [barring extraordinary circumstances such as threat of violence etc].

Sure. Same can be said for Hindu’s and Bhuddist monks. It doesn’t make them right. We should feel sorry for them because they are doing all this outside the Catholic Church.

I agree!

Which is exactly what is dangerous about protestantism. It’s not exactly great apologetics to advertise that they are so divergent on their heresies.

No such thing as New Church or Tridentine Church.

I think I should only need to defend my own statements but we are in fact talking about fellow Christians not bhuddists or Hindus (even though Nostra Aeternae comments on our relations with non-Christian religions).

The CC Magisterium holds that Orthodox and Protestants are in fact true Christians. It doesnt say that of their churches.

Individually, these baptised believers, have the same adoption of sonship, co-heirs with Christ, graced by the Holy Spirit. Isnt this the same theology we hold about ourselves? So arent they Christian?

 

[A_Catholic]

Exactly.

I think people who cannot fathom that a Protestant can be a true servant of God, falls into several categories:

– those who do not have any devout Protestant Christians as friends
– converts who were raised in some sort of wacky Protestant cult or was burned by a Protestant church and now ascribe the properties of that church to all Protestant Churches. They are some of the more vociferous in denouncing that a Protestant can be saved.

I have encountered some wacky churches, but I have also seen many devout (more devout than a lot of Catholics), Protestants who live live self-denying lives in His service.

In fact, let us not forget there are Protestant martyrs who died for the cause of Christ.

We are in the Church that Jesus founded and we should pray for the souls of our Protestant brothers and sisters, so that they might turn away from their errors and return to the Church. AsGod says in Hosea 4:6, “My people perish for lack of knowledge.”

But never doubt that God rewards the righteous.

The question is what makes us righteous. Is it our righteous works, or is it the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ? Our Lord said that unless we eat his body and drink his blood, we have no life in us. That can only be found in the Eucharist, which the Protestant churches do not have. He did not say that if we do righteous works that will give us life. Just recognizing Jesus as Lord and Saviour is not enough. The devil believes, too.

I believe you are trying to find the true Church outside of the Catholic Church, and it cannot be done. Jesus Christ founded only one church, not the 40,000 plus (and growing) Protestant churches.

 

[NewsTheMan]

The CC Magisterium holds that Orthodox and Protestants are in fact true Christians. It doesnt say that of their churches.

Christians, yes. “True Christians”, no, I wouldn’t use that language and the Church doesn’t either. The only true Christians are those who are fully in communion with the Mystical Body of Christ. Protestants lack the true faith. Christ is His Church - no Church, no Christ, no Christ, no true Christianity.

“Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith, and have not, to their misfortune, separated themselves from the structure of the Body, or for very serious sins have not been excluded by lawful authority” (Mystici Corporis Christi, n. 22; 29 June 1943: Denz.-Schon. 3802).

 

[christosdavid]

Christians, yes. “True Christians”, no, I wouldn’t use that language and the Church doesn’t either. The only true Christians are those who are fully in communion with the Mystical Body of Christ. Protestants lack the true faith. Christ is His Church - no Church, no Christ, no Christ, no true Christianity.

“Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith, and have not, to their misfortune, separated themselves from the structure of the Body, or for very serious sins have not been excluded by lawful authority” (Mystici Corporis Christi, n. 22; 29 June 1943: Denz.-Schon. 3802).

how can you be a Christian, united to Christ, joined with US in the Holy Spirit, receive sanctifying grace and not be a true Christian? (cf. Lumen Gentium II.15)