Do you see yourself as a Catholic first, or a Christian first?

[Mike30]

ConstantineTG, the last I knew, was “practicing” Eastern Catholicism while remaining canonically Latin rite because he hasn’t succeeded in getting his membership transfered. You’ve got to be careful about making assumptions about people based on very little evidence.

To address the original question, Catholicism is full Christianity or orthodox Christianty, whereas other forms of Christianity are incomplete and/or partially in error. With this truth in view I don’t think there’s a way of putting one before the other without creating a lot of confusion.

I merely pointed out something that he himself describes himself as. Since I don’t know him personally all I can go by is how he describes himself.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. We’re trying to get the Truth, not prove each other right/wrong/sinful/saintly. Speaking on my own behalf, I don’t mean to offend anyone outrightly (which is to say, that isn’t my intention, though a protestant may be offended in knowing that outside the Church there is no salvation). All I want is to present authentic Catholic truth in a manner consistent with the Church and her sacred tradition. Apologies to anyone if I have spoken too harshly or like a dictator - I get ahead of myself. Check signature for reference I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and though some are wrong, I only discuss so that they can correct their opinions, not so that I can bolster my own ego, similarly if and when I am wrong I enjoy correction.

My my, how off topic we went. God bless us all and lead us into the Truth of the Catholic Church and let us love and know Jesus Christ.

 

[NewsTheMan]

He is fussing about invisible ignorance. Who are we to judge anyway if one person is honestly and sincerely ignorant of the truths.

I was fussing about it because TrueLight got it wrong. The Church has clear distinction between invincible and vincible ignorance. One cannot willy-nilly use the word “invincible ignorance” and make it apply to situations. Invincible means just that - cannot be overcome. It is undefeatable. It does not mean “with some difficulty and effort and time the ignorance can be moulded”.

I have not, not once, judged any person and their sincerity. Being ignorant of truths vincibly and invincibly is for God to judge of the person, but we can objectively say prima facie from the facts that are available whether or not a given situation appears to be a case of invincible or vincible ignorance. And the distinction is very clear. Let’s not get bogged down by trying to be overbearingly politically correct. Sometimes we can judge and say “this is in error/this is wilfull ignorance”. The distinction between wilful and non-wilful ignorance is not the same as vincible and invincible ignorance.

 

[TrueLight]

Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. We’re trying to get the Truth, not prove each other right/wrong/sinful/saintly. Speaking on my own behalf, I don’t mean to offend anyone outrightly (which is to say, that isn’t my intention, though a protestant may be offended in knowing that outside the Church there is no salvation). All I want is to present authentic Catholic truth in a manner consistent with the Church and her sacred tradition. Apologies to anyone if I have spoken too harshly or like a dictator - I get ahead of myself. Check signature for reference I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and though some are wrong, I only discuss so that they can correct their opinions, not so that I can bolster my own ego, similarly if and when I am wrong I enjoy correction.

My my, how off topic we went. God bless us all and lead us into the Truth of the Catholic Church and let us love and know Jesus Christ.

I think those of us who disagree would also repeat the above.

And that wasn’t a very humble semi-apology.

I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and though some are wrong, I only discuss so that they can correct their opinions

 

[A_Catholic]

He is fussing about invisible ignorance. Who are we to judge anyway if one person is honestly and sincerely ignorant of the truths.

It’s pretty much impossible to be invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Truth when it is everywhere and easily accessible in our society. This website is a prime example of that. And with the internet, there are so many Catholic resources available that it can boggle the mind. If people don’t know what the Catholic Church believes, it’s either because they don’t want to know or they don’t want to take the time to know.

 

[christosdavid]

christosdavid;8511209:

Good catch. But my point was that we can never know God’s minds when it comes to how he is working with us or anyone else individually

. But there isn’t a lot of guess work involved into why God calls people into the Church. It’s all about where we are going to spend our eternity. That is the only that that really matters.

Actually, Truelight had a good point about Augustine’s Confessions, certainly he believed that he was aware of God’s providence in his life.

Sure, God is calling people to the Church to be saved, but the point was that isnt the end of the purpose, but also to minister to people we are empathetic with, such as Protestants (or Jews or Muslims) to come to a fuller understanding of their own Christian faith.

 

[TrueLight]

I was fussing about it because TrueLight got it wrong. The Church has clear distinction between invincible and vincible ignorance. One cannot willy-nilly use the word “invincible ignorance” and make it apply to situations. Invincible means just that - cannot be overcome. It is undefeatable. It does not mean “with some difficulty and effort and time the ignorance can be moulded”.

I may be wrong in the definition. Sue me. I’m new.

However, I don’t believe I am wrong in stating that God knows who his faithful followers are within and outside the Catholic Church.

I won’t even bother quoting post Vat II documentation, because it would be hypocritical of me quote some and scoff at others.

But needless to say there are enough Vatican documents that address this.

 

[NewsTheMan]

And that wasn’t a very humble semi-apology.

Oh no, I wasn’t apologizing. I don’t apologize for the truth. I was just making it known that I am a sinner, slow to learn and sometimes not as charitable as I could be. Evidently, also, not humble. But when you’re right, you’re right.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I may be wrong in the definition. Sue me. I’m new.

Don’t take it personally. Please? This is a frank discussion, I understand that. If I’ve offended you, then I do apologize.

However, I don’t believe I am wrong in stating that God knows who his faithful followers are within and outside the Catholic Church.

Yes, He does. Of course. Look again though at what I have said. Look at what the Church says regarding invincible ignorance. There is confusion going on here when it is simple.

Invincible = can never be overcome, ever. Applies very, very rarely.

 

[Mike30]

Mike, I am a “non-practicing Roman”, but very much an active Catholic. I use that as my religion as a joke, because I was discriminated against by Roman Catholics in the local Archdiocese for being Ukrainian Catholic. I was formerly Roman, but decided my spirituality would grow more in the Byzantine Rite. I was called non-practicing by those who discriminated against me. But I can guarantee you that I am very much practicing and active in my Ukrainian parish.

Of course all are saved through His Church. But what is His Church today? We know we are the true Church, but we also acknowledge that the other Apostolic Churches such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Armenian, Syriac and Assyrian Church of the East as valid and true Churches.

His one true Church today is the is the Catholic Church, which includes all those Churches in communion with Rome, as it always has been. The Orthodox have apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist yet are separate from the Catholic Church and are not complete in matters of faith.

As to the non practicing Roman Catholic line I had no idea it was a joke on your part. I don’t joke about my faith but to each his own:shrug:. I am sorry that you were “discriminated against” by members of the Latin Rite, however,maybe that does explain some of your statements.

 

[christosdavid]

Don’t take it personally. Please? This is a frank discussion, I understand that. If I’ve offended you, then I do apologize.

Yes, He does. Of course. Look again though at what I have said. Look at what the Church says regarding invincible ignorance. There is confusion going on here when it is simple.

Invincible = can never be overcome, ever. Applies very, very rarely.

perhaps part of the charity you are asking prayers for could be applied towards those in ignorance, live in the outback, have no internet connection to find this site, have only ever met and heard the gospel from Protestant missionaries.

Is that a fair enough senario? not all countries in the world are like the US or even RSA

 

[A_Catholic]

I would take my own advice if I were you.

I know how God worked in my life, and neither you or anyone else can say otherwise.

If you read Augustine’s confessions, he was able to see and speak of how God shaped him and molded him to bring him to where he is. This is why there is a Holy Spirit and discernment.

I do try to take that advice. I’m not saying you are wrong in your assessment of your situation, just that we can never be 100% sure, because we do not know the mind of God, and we should be careful when we say we know God’s will for ourselves or anyone else. St. Augustine spoke of his life years after the events when he could see events in the light of what had come to pass. An example is his examination of stealing pears when he was 16. I doubt that I could ever come anywhere near the profound insights of St. Augustine.

You’re not interested in responding to my other points?

 

[NewsTheMan]

perhaps part of the charity you are asking prayers for could be applied towards those in ignorance, live in the outback, have no internet connection to find this site, have only ever met and heard the gospel from Protestant missionaries.
Is that a fair enough senario? not all countries in the world are like the US or even RSA

Are you suggesting that in my discussion here I am trivializing those who do not know Christ and His Church? Interesting. I’ve never even hinted towards such a thing. In any case, yes, of course they need prayers. They need Christ as much as the rest of us. If you’d rather pray for them, go right ahead - but God is generous and He’d accept prayers for me too

 

[TrueLight]

I do try to take that advice. I’m not saying you are wrong in your assessment of your situation, just that we can never be 100% sure, because we do not know the mind of God, and we should be careful when we say we know God’s will for ourselves or anyone else. St. Augustine spoke of his life years after the events when he could see events in the light of what had come to pass. An example is his examination of stealing pears when he was 16. I doubt that I could ever come anywhere near the profound insights of St. Augustine.

You’re not interested in responding to my other points?

I will get back to you when I have more time.

 

[TrueLight]

Very good article on Invincible Ignorance , written in 1942 by Msgr Ronald Knox.

Especially this portion:

Are there many people in that position? I don’t know; my own impression is that there are very few Protestants who are Protestants in bad faith. They are in good faith, so long as they remain outside the Church through invincible ignorance. That’s a phrase of ours that worries people frightfully; when we tell them they are the victims of invincible ignorance, they always look as if we had said something rude. But if you are arguing with a friend, and are driven to tell him in the last resort that invincible ignorance is what he is suffering from, don’t let him go away with the impression that you are being rude, and that invincible ignorance means a sort of cretinous stupidity. If you’ve got a tutorial at six, and your watch tells you it’s half-past five, and you’re pretty sure your watch is wrong, and there’s a clock in the next room you know to be right – then that ignorance of the time which makes you half an hour or so late for your tutorial is not invincible ignorance.

It is vincible ignorance; you could have overcome it if you had taken the trouble to look at the clock in the next room. So your friend’s ignorance would be vincible, if he already had a pretty shrewd idea that the Catholic position was right, but refused to read the Catholic Truth Society tracts you offered him because he jolly well knew he was going to lose a legacy if he became a Catholic. But that’s not his position; a hundred accidents of parentage, education, misconception, sentimental prejudice and so on make him so far from the Church that his conversion would seem a kind of miracle; he really knows nothing about Catholics except that you are one, which may or may not be an inducement – very well, his ignorance is invincible. It is the kind of ignorance he could not get rid of by taking any steps which he could normally be expected to take. So he’s all right.

 

[christosdavid]

Are you suggesting that in my discussion here I am trivializing those who do not know Christ and His Church? Interesting. I’ve never even hinted towards such a thing. In any case, yes, of course they need prayers. They need Christ as much as the rest of us. If you’d rather pray for them, go right ahead - but God is generous and He’d accept prayers for me too

I meant you could show them charity… for which I am currently praying for you…

Or how about Samoa and Vanuatu. colonised late, Samoa is Methodist and Vanuatu is Presbyterian. They generally dont even have TV let alone the internet to allow them to “rise above” their culture.

 

[TrueLight]

Continued…

By now, as I well know, you are all bursting with an objection. It always crops up in these discussions. If (you say) this rosy picture of yours is true about the dispositions of Protestants and their chances of eternal salvation, what exactly is the use of being a Catholic? Aren’t Catholics, by your account of the matter, rather in the position of men who laboriously climb up the rugged slopes of a mountain, to find when they got to the top that their Protestant friends have got ahead of them by means of a funicular railway whose existence they themselves had never been taught to suspect? Here am I (you complain) tied down by all sorts of restrictions and regulations which interfere seriously with my enjoyment of the present life; and here are these Protestants, invincibly ignorant of all these rules and regulations, and therefore having all the fun which I miss, and no worse off when it comes to a future life than myself? Your attitude, in fact, is very much that of the laborers in the vineyard whom we read about in the Gospel, who complained that they had borne all the burden of the day and the heats, and at the end of it found themselves on exactly the same footing as the casual laborers who had been raked in from the marketplace at the last moment.

Well, that opens up rather a large subject. You see, it isn’t true that Protestants are exempt from the law of God, from the Ten Commandments for instance; and it isn’t true that Protestants can be invincibly ignorant, to a full extent, of what God’s law requires of them. Their consciences are doubtless confused; but don’t be too ready to believe them when they say they see no harm in doing this or that which you know to be wrong. There’s a great deal of self-deception going about, when people say they “see no harm” in doing something they very much want to; it’s not invincible ignorance when a man puts blinkers on his conscience. We are not to judge our Protestant friends in such cases; judgment lies with Almighty God, to whom each soul is responsible. But you mustn’t think it true for a moment, or allow other people to think it true for a moment, that there is one Divine Law for Catholics and another for Protestants. However, that takes us away from our subject. Let us admit that where the law of the Church is concerned you are bound and your Protestant friends are not. They can do certain things which you can’t do; they can eat a mutton-chop on a Friday, they can be Freemasons, they can get married in a registry office, they can leave directions in their wills to say they want to be cremated, and so on. From all these riotous pleasures you are excluded. And you want to know whether it isn’t bad luck you should be excluded when they aren’t. Or, putting the thing in a rather more altruistic way, why (you ask) should we bother to convert Protestants? Since they are in good faith, wouldn’t it be better to leave them in good faith, and let them get to heaven in their own way, mutton-chops and all?

 

[ConstantineTG]

It’s pretty much impossible to be invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Truth when it is everywhere and easily accessible in our society. This website is a prime example of that. And with the internet, there are so many Catholic resources available that it can boggle the mind. If people don’t know what the Catholic Church believes, it’s either because they don’t want to know or they don’t want to take the time to know.

Not just because you read something or heard something means you know about it.

 

[TrueLight]

Continued…

The immediate answer to that difficulty is this – that although we ought always to hope, for the sake of charity, that this or that Protestant is in good faith, we can’t be sure that he is in good faith, nor, for that matter, can he. Therefore we should always encourage the conversion of a Protestant, if only for safety’s sake. But, you know, even if you could be certain that some friend of yours was in good faith, and was on the whole a clean-living sort of person, so that there was no great reason to worry about him, it isn’t true to say that you and he enjoy exactly the same supernatural advantages. First, you have the certainty of faith; you are spared the anxious uncertainties which often assail him; he’s not certain whether there is a future life, whether his life’s worth living, whether anything you do or say really matters much – from these doubts you are set free. Second, you have access, where he has no access, to sacramental grace; he can win forgiveness for his sins (for example) only by an act of perfect contrition, and who can be certain that he is making an act of perfect contrition? Whereas for you attrition suffices, as long as you make use of the sacrament of penance. Third, you have the merits of the Church at your disposal; you can go out to Rome in the vacation and get a plenary indulgence, or (if your dispositions are not sufficient for that) an indulgence of some kind; he can go out to Kamchatka and he won’t get off a day’s Purgatory for it. The reason why you don’t realize your privileges as Catholics is because you don’t use them more.

As a matter of fact, even if there were no heaven and no hell, it would still be our duty to try and convert heretics, even those who are only in material heresy, for a different reason – that truth is truth, and has a right to be told. Spiritual truth, which is the highest of all, is something we must necessarily want to impart to other people if we possess it ourselves. I don’t mean by that that I want you to go straight back to your College and try and convert the two people you are sitting next to in Hall. Indiscriminate attempts to convert other people mean, at the best, that you give people a dislike for Catholicism; at the worst, that you shake what faith they have in Christianity altogether, so that the last state of them is worse than the first. No, your duty is to defend the faith to the best of your power where you can see it is being misrepresented, and to help your friends when they begin to take an interest in the Catholic religion, by lending them books, by introducing them to a priest, or in some similar way.

There’s one other point. If you are asked, “What is the exact meaning of the maxim, No salvation outside the Catholic Church,” what are you to say about it? The simplest way to put it, I think, is this – there is no other religious body in the world except the Catholic Church which makes a supernatural contribution to a man’s chances of salvation. He may receive natural help from some other source; his conscience may be stirred by the preaching of the Salvation Army, or he may learn a useful habit of mental prayer from the Buchmanites, or his sense of worship may be stimulated by the beauty of the ceremonies which he witnesses at the Church of the Cowley Fathers. But there’s only one religious body whose membership, of itself, tends to procure our salvation, and that is the Catholic Church. If anybody is saved without visible membership of it he is saved, not because he’s an Anglican, not because he’s a Methodist, not because he’s a Quaker, but for one reason only – because he is a Catholic without knowing it.

 

[A_Catholic]

Very good article on Invincible Ignorance , written in 1942 by Msgr Ronald Knox.

Especially this portion:

Maybe it’s time to start a new thread?