Do you support the death penalty?

[CEM5]

Quote by CEM5:
“If there was no other bloodless means to protect society, then the death penalty can be used. However, since we have the sufficient bloodless means to protect society by incarceration for life, then the State does not have the “right” to utilize this.”

There is a society within a prison that needs to be protected. My husband while working in a maximum security prison was attacked. We worried for a year that he had contracted HIV.

Recently in a maximum security prison where we live, a female guard was killed.

How many fellow prisoners are the victims of murder from the hands of other inmates.

There are some individuals who are so violent that even the society within a prison cannot be adequately protected.

Hi kim zef,

That is so tragic to hear, and I feel for those poor people who were murdered. However, there is the means to stop this: place such violent offenders into isolation away from others.

Blessings,
CEM

 

[CEM5]

I claim to be able to look things up on the Internet and make logical assumptions. Go to the web sites for the major anti-death penalty groups and see what they claim. If they aren’t claiming that dozens and dozens of people have been wrongfully executed then I think we can be reasonably sure that it hasn’t happened.

Ender

Here is the number of KNOWN innocents executed or have been exonorated (thank God!).

deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

The most recent exonerees are Yancy Douglas & Paris Powell (Nos. 135 & 136) of Oklahoma,

Robert Springsteen (No. 137) of Texas in 2009, and Anthony Graves (No. 138) of Texas in 2010.

List of Exonerees Since 1973 (including criteria for inclusion on List)

Descriptions of Each Exoneration

View Each Exonerees’ Case Description By Their Year of Release:

1973 - 1983
1984 - 1993
1994 - 2003
2004 - Present

Exoneration Statistics

Exonerations by State

Exonerations by Year

Exonerations by Race

Further Innocence Information

Released From Death Row (Partial Innocence)

Executed Despite Doubts About Guilt

Causes of Wrongful Convictions

DPIC’s Summary of the Innocence Protection Act of 2004

List of Exonerations in German: Unschuldige und ihre Faelle in Kuerze

For contact with individuals who have been exonerated from death row, visit

Witness to Innocence

For Information about Innocence Projects across the country, visit

The Innocence Project
The Innocence Project Northwest

News and Developments - Current Year

News and Developments - Previous Years

2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003 2002

EXONERATIONS BY STATE

As of October 27, 2010 there have been 138 exonerations in 26 different States.

State No State No State No State No State No
Florida 23 Oklahoma 10 Ohio 5 Mississippi 3 Kentucky 1
Illinois 20 North Carolina 7 New Mexico 4 South Carolina 2 Maryland 1
Texas 12 Pennsylvania 6 California 3 Indiana 2 Nebraska 1
Louisiana 8 Alabama 5 Massachusetts 3 Tennessee 2 Nevada 1
Arizona 8 Georgia 5 Missouri 3 Idaho 1 Virginia 1
Washington 1

RACE
EXONERATIONS
Black
71
White
53
Latino
12
Other
2

So, go to the above mentioned link and you can click on those headings to find more.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Here is the number of KNOWN innocents executed or have been exonorated (thank God!).

deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty

The most recent exonerees are Yancy Douglas & Paris Powell (Nos. 135 & 136) of Oklahoma,

Robert Springsteen (No. 137) of Texas in 2009, and Anthony Graves (No. 138) of Texas in 2010.

List of Exonerees Since 1973 (including criteria for inclusion on List)

Descriptions of Each Exoneration

View Each Exonerees’ Case Description By Their Year of Release:

1973 - 1983
1984 - 1993
1994 - 2003
2004 - Present

Exoneration Statistics

Exonerations by State

Exonerations by Year

Exonerations by Race

Further Innocence Information

Released From Death Row (Partial Innocence)

Executed Despite Doubts About Guilt

Causes of Wrongful Convictions

DPIC’s Summary of the Innocence Protection Act of 2004

List of Exonerations in German: Unschuldige und ihre Faelle in Kuerze

For contact with individuals who have been exonerated from death row, visit

Witness to Innocence

For Information about Innocence Projects across the country, visit

The Innocence Project
The Innocence Project Northwest

News and Developments - Current Year

News and Developments - Previous Years

2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 2003 2002

EXONERATIONS BY STATE

As of October 27, 2010 there have been 138 exonerations in 26 different States.

State No State No State No State No State No
Florida 23 Oklahoma 10 Ohio 5 Mississippi 3 Kentucky 1
Illinois 20 North Carolina 7 New Mexico 4 South Carolina 2 Maryland 1
Texas 12 Pennsylvania 6 California 3 Indiana 2 Nebraska 1
Louisiana 8 Alabama 5 Massachusetts 3 Tennessee 2 Nevada 1
Arizona 8 Georgia 5 Missouri 3 Idaho 1 Virginia 1
Washington 1

RACE
EXONERATIONS
Black
71
White
53
Latino
12
Other
2

So, go to the above mentioned link and you can click on those headings to find more.

Thank you for the link. I did find this there:

“There is no way to tell how many of the over 1,000 people executed since 1976 may have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence once the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients’ lives can still be saved.”

I suspected that but hadn’t started the research. That’s why I brought up the economy (spending money on people who have been executed probably isn’t high on the list of priorities of those who can use that money to save the lives of those they believe have been wrongly convicted).

I believe the numbers you have presented represent those prisoners who were exonerated before execution. Unless I missed it, I didn’t see any proof that any prisoners were found innocent after execution. Would you please quote that part? I can’t find it.

The website mentions an organization to which I referred in another thread - the Innocence Project. And with the numbers of exonerations you have posted above I wonder how anyone would feel it would be appropriate to execute these people who have now been found innocent of the capital crimes of which they were convicted. I wasn’t aware the numbers were so high but I’m not surprised.

We can’t know how many of these people would have been executed but I personally believe that innocent people have been executed (and I mean people other than Jesus and the martyrs). I’m hoping that post-mortem DNA evidence will soon be used to establish innocence, at least from a legal standpoint. I read the part about prisoners who were executed even though their guilt was doubted. Seeing those faces and reading about them really brought it home. I’m going to keep this link permanently.

Thanks so much!

 

[Ender]

Here is the number of KNOWN innocents executed or have been exonorated (thank God!).

I know what the claims are but the facts are otherwise. To be exonerated means to be cleared of the charges; to be found not guilty. Look at the link you helpfully provided and see the difference between cases #113 and #114. Alan Gell (#113) was retried and found not guilty, that is, he was exonerated. In the case of Gordon Steidl (#114), a retrial was ordered but the state dropped the charges rather than retry the case. Steidl was released; he was not exonerated.

Ender

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’d like to add the following as a list of errors that can appear during a trial (I apologize for using Wiki but it actually appears to be a fairly extensive list. I’m not an attorney nor any kind of expert in criminal law (with the exception of some limited experience in child abuse cases) and so I’m just throwing this in for what it is worth:

Plea bargains that offer incentives for the innocent to plead guilty
Confirmation bias on the part of investigators
Withholding or destruction of evidence by police or prosecution
Fabrication of evidence or outright perjury by police (see testifying), or prosecution witnesses (e.g. Charles Randal Smith)
Biased editing of evidence
Prejudice towards the class of people to which the defendant belongs
Misidentification of the perpetrator by witnesses and/or victims
Overestimation/underestimation of the evidential value of expert testimony
Contaminated evidence
Faulty forensic tests
False confessions due to police pressure or psychological weakness
Misdirection of a jury by a judge during trial
Perjured evidence by the real guilty party or their accomplices (frameup)
Perjured evidence by supposed victim or their accomplices
Conspiracy between court of appeal judges and prosecutors to uphold conviction of innocent

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage_of_justice

There are a lot of errors that can occur. I very much doubt that less than 1% of trials have errors, although I have just started researching to find an actual percentage.

 

[dudleysharp]

Even the risk that one innocent person could die is far too much for me to see the death penalty as a punishment.

The Death Penalty: Saving Innocent Lives
Dudley Sharp, contact info below

Innocence

Of all human endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.

1. “The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx
2. Opponents in capital punishment have blood on their hands, Dennis Prager, 11/29/05, townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2005/11/29/opponents_in_capital_punishment_have_blood_on_their_hands
3. “A Death Penalty Red Herring: The Inanity and Hypocrisy of Perfection”, Lester Jackson Ph.D.,
   tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=102909A

The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are legendary. Some examples:

1. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx
2. The 130 (now 138) death row “innocents” scam
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx
3. Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx
4. “At the Death House Door” Can Rev. Carroll Pickett be trusted?"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/01/30/fact-checking-is-very-welcome.aspx
5. “Cameron Todd Willingham: Another Media Meltdown”, A Collection of Articles
   homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Cameron%20Todd%20Willingham.aspx

Deterrence

Of course the death penalty deters.

All prospects of a negative outcome deter some. It is a truism. The death penalty, the most severe of criminal sanctions, is the least likely of all criminal sanctions to violate that truism.

1. 27 recent studies finding for deterrence, Criminal Justice Legal Foundation
   cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPDeterrence.htm
2. “Deterrence & the Death Penalty: A Reply to Radelet and Lacock”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/02/deterrence-and-the-death-penalty-a-reply-to-radelet-and-lacock.aspx
3. “Death Penalty, Deterrence & Murder Rates: Let’s be clear”
   prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/03/death-penalty-deterrence-murder-rates.html
4. This is out of date, but corrects a number of the misconceptions about deterrence.
   “Death Penalty and Deterrence”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2006/03/20/the-death-penalty-as-a-deterrent–confirmed–seven-recent-studies-updated-61204.aspx
5. “The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx

Of course the death penalty deters. A review of the debate.
Dudley Sharp

1. Anti death penalty folks say that the burden of proof is on those who say that the death penalty deters. Untrue. It is a rational truism that all potential negative outcomes deter some - there is no exception. It is the burden of death penalty opponents to prove that the death penalty, the most severe of criminal sanctions, is the only prospect of a negative outcome that deters none. They cannot.
2. There have been 27 recent studies finding for death penalty deterrence. A few of those have been criticized. The criticism has, itself been rebutted and/or the criticism doesn’t negate no. 1 or nos. 3-10.
3. No deterrence study finds that the death penalty deters none. They cannot. Anti death penalty columnists Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune states, “No one argues that the death penaly deters none.” Yes, some do, But Zorn is correct, the issue is not “Does the death penalty deter?”. It does. The only issue is to what degree.
4. About 99% of those murderers who are subject to the death penalty do everything they can to receive a lesser sentence, in pre trial, plea bargains, trial, in appeals and in clemency/commutation proceedings. Life is preferred over death. Death is feared more than life. No surprise. Would a more rational group, those who choose not to murder, also share in that overwhelming fear of death and be deterred by the prospects of execution? Of course.
5. There are a number of known cases of individual deterrence, those potential murderers who have stated that they were prevented from committing murder because of their fear of the death penalty. Individual deterrence exists.
6. General deterrence exists because individual deterrence cannot exist without it.
7. Even the dean of anti death penalty academics, Hugo Adam Bedau, agrees that the death penalty deters … . but he doesn’t believe it deters more than a life sentence. Nos. 4-6 and 10 provide anecdotal and rational evidence that the death penalty is a greater deterrent than a life sentence. In addition, the 27 studies finding for deterrence, find that the death penalty is an enhanced deterrent over a life sentence.
8. All criminal sanctions deter. If you doubt that, what do you think would happen if we ended all criminal sanctions? No rational person has any doubt. Some would have us, irrationally, believe that the most severe sanction, execution, is the only sanction which doesn’t deter.
9. If we execute and there is no deterrence, we have justly punished a murderer and have prevented that murderer from ever harming/murdering, again. If we execute and there is deterrence, we have those benefits, plus we have spared more innocent lives. If we don’t execute and there is deterrence, we have spared murderers at the cost of more innocent deaths.
10. Overwhelmingly, people prefer life over death and fear death more than life.

 

[dudleysharp]

Here is the number of KNOWN innocents executed or have been exonorated (thank God!).QUOTE]

There are no known innocents executed in the US, at least since the 1930’s.

The exonerated list you used is one deception after another.

Fact chekcing is crucial.

1. The 130 (now 138) death row “exonerated” “innocents” scam
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx

The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are legendary. Some examples:

1. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx
2. Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx
3. “At the Death House Door” Can Rev. Carroll Pickett be trusted?"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/01/30/fact-checking-is-very-welcome.aspx
4. “Cameron Todd Willingham: Another Media Meltdown”, A Collection of Articles
   homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Cameron%20Todd%20Willingham.aspx

 

[SwissGuard25]

I think’s it’s hilarious Irony.

Your murdering someone to show murder is wrong.

 

[LittleSoldier]

CEM5;8568732:

Here is the number of KNOWN innocents executed or have been exonorated (thank God!).

There are no known innocents executed in the US, at least since the 1930’s.

Please note the use of the word “known.” You also mention “at least since the 1930’s.” Was there an innocent person executed in the US before or during the 1930’s? Was there more than one? Who? Another poster in this thread has claimed that no innocent person has ever been executed and he did not specify the country. Will you please expand on what you have stated about the 1930’s? Thank you.

The exonerated list you used is one deception after another.

With all due respect, that may be true in your opinion yet not true in fact. One can prove anything one wants with statistics.

Fact chekcing is crucial.

1. The 130 (now 138) death row “exonerated” “innocents” scam
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx

The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are legendary. Some examples:

1. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx

1. Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx

1. “At the Death House Door” Can Rev. Carroll Pickett be trusted?"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/01/30/fact-checking-is-very-welcome.aspx

1. “Cameron Todd Willingham: Another Media Meltdown”, A Collection of Articles
   homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Cameron%20Todd%20Willingham.aspx

As I have already stated, it is not known if any innocent people have been executed, with the exception of Jesus and the martyrs. It doesn’t matter that we don’t know if innocent people have been executed in the US; a wrong is a wrong no matter where it occurs. We do know that, at the very minimum, ONE person who was completely innocent was executed and in a particularly heinous way. The Church teaches us that we cannot use evil means, even if the end is good. That means that we cannot execute an innocent person - even to save a nation.

We don’t know if anyone other than Jesus (and the martyrs) have been executed even though they were innocent. No study can prove that no innocent people have been executed. There is no way to prove a negative. We can use the data we have available *properly, * and do our best to make sure that no innocent person is ever executed again. But we don’t know if any innocent person in the US has been executed, nor does that matter. If one innocent person is executed in the entire world, that is one person too many.

You say that fact checking is crucial. I agree. But it is a fact that you don’t know if an innocent person has been executed in the US nor do you know if the sources you have cited are trustworthy sources. Unless you are the one who has been executed, or God, or perhaps the people in heaven, YOU DO NOT KNOW.

I’m sorry to bring this up, but could you please use the function properly? I cleaned this one up for you but this thread is getting very messy and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to know to whom quotes should be attributed. Also, changing the title of the thread in the middle of the thread does nothing but lead to more confusion IMHO (I am assuming that “title” in a post refers to the title of the thread and if I’m wrong I apologize in advance). Thank you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

CEM5;8568732:

Here is the number of KNOWN innocents executed or have been exonorated (thank God!).QUOTE]

There are no known innocents executed in the US, at least since the 1930’s.

The exonerated list you used is one deception after another.

Fact chekcing is crucial.

1. The 130 (now 138) death row “exonerated” “innocents” scam
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx

The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are legendary. Some examples:

1. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx
2. Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx
3. “At the Death House Door” Can Rev. Carroll Pickett be trusted?"
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/01/30/fact-checking-is-very-welcome.aspx
4. “Cameron Todd Willingham: Another Media Meltdown”, A Collection of Articles
   homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Cameron%20Todd%20Willingham.aspx
   Are you the same Dudley Sharp who authored at least three of the articles you cite? I’d like to point out that every one of these articles is from the same organization, which appears to be a pro-death penalty organization. I’m not saying it is incorrect to use these articles in this thread; I’m merely pointing out the authorship (please understand that this is not a complaint in any form; I actually think it’s great to not waste space in posts when links to what someone has already written are available. I’ve just never run across this before and I’m a bit confused ).

 

[surritter]

I think’s it’s hilarious Irony.

Your murdering someone to show murder is wrong.

It would indeed be ridiculous to have the death penalty as a way of showing that murder is wrong. If you’d read some of the posts on this thread, you would see that the idea proposed to support capital punishment is based on a question of justice, not setting an example.

That said, I am opposed to the death penalty, and have explained the reasons with logic, I believe. But the real reasons for or against the DP should never come down to emotion or simply trying to get revenge.

 

[LittleSoldier]

CEM5;8568732:

Fact chekcing is crucial.

1. The 130 (now 138) death row “exonerated” “innocents” scam
   homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx

I have now read this article and I find it troubling (I’m not the only one; one can vote as to whether the article was liked or not liked and over 60% of respondents have voted that they disliked it, while 33% liked it). There are several places where red flags popped up. For example, the author makes the following statement:

“Dieter would call Hitler and Stalin innocent. Those are his ‘standards.’”

OK, I suppose I can now claim that according to Godwin’s Law Sharp has now lost the debate (although I have to admit that I believe Godwin’s Law is a joke). However, I think this is called a Straw Man? (I’m not too clear on logical fallacies yet.)

It is very important to take note that the 130 exonerated from death row is a blatant scam, easily uncovered by fact checking.

Richard Dieter, head of the Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) and DPIC have produced the claims regarding the exonerated and innocents released from death row list.

The scam is that DPIC just decided to redefine what exonerated and innocence mean according to their own perverse definitions.

How Dieter and DPIC define what “exonerated” or “innocent” means.

". . . (DPIC) makes no distinction between legal and factual innocence. " ‘They’re innocent in the eyes of the law,’ Dieter says. ‘That’s the only objective standard we have.’ "

That is untrue, of course. We are all aware of the differences between legal guilt and actual guilt and legal innocence (not guilty) and actual innocence, just as the courts are.

I’m not! And I don’t think that DPIC’s operational definitions are “perverse” in any way. “Perverse?” That is a very strong and pejorative word!

The only issue in the death penalty innocence debate is how many actual innocents are sent to death row and what is the probability of executing an actual innocent. Legal innocence is not the issue, for the simple fact that we cannot execute a legally innocent person. So the concern is over the actual innocent, those who had no connection to the murder(s).

No, the issue in the death penalty innocence debate is how many people who are legally innocent of the charges for which they have been tried remain on death row until they are executed or die of natural causes, and those that are removed from death row via acquittal from a new trial, the dropping of charges, or a full pardon. We can’t determine actual innocence. Only God, the defendant, and perhaps those in heaven can. Legal innocence IS the issue. Is Sharp claiming that “actual innocence” can be determined only in those who “had no connection to the murder(s)?” Why? What does this mean? I am requesting further clarification.

Furthermore, there is no finding of actual innocence, but it is “not guilty”. Dieter knows that we are all speaking of actual innocence, those cases that have no connection to the murder(s). He takes advantage of that by redefining exonerated and innocence.

How do you know that Dieter “knows that we are all speaking of actual innocence” in the way you define it? How does one determine actual innocence? If one is found not guilty or is acquitted of the crimes for which he is being tried he is innocent as far as the law can determine. Only God can determine actual, true innocence (including culpability) beyond a shadow of a doubt and that is because He is omniscient. We are not yet Sharp seems to make the claim that somehow we should be. How?

Dieter “clarifies” the three ways that former death row inmates get onto their “exonerated” by “innocence” list.

“A defendant whose conviction is overturned by a judge must be further exonerated in one of three ways: he must be acquitted at a new trial, or the prosecutor must drop the charges against him, or a governor must grant an absolute pardon.”

None establishes actual innocence.

What Dieter has done, IMO, is provide operational definitions. This is perfectly acceptable and actually something that should be done. The word “innocent” can have several meanings. What is “actual innocence?” How can it be determined? When a person is executed by the government his execution is based on a legal determination of his guilt. This is legal guilt. Yet if a person on death row receives a new trial and is acquitted, that isn’t enough for exoneration, according to Sharp. If the prosecutor drops the charges against him, that is not enough. If the governor grants a pardon, that is not enough. It is only enough if he is found absolutely innocent - and that cannot be done by human beings.

There is one issue raised by Sharp with which I agree:

DPIC has " . . . included supposedly innocent defendants who were still culpable as accomplices to the actual triggerman."

Although I personally believe that people who are involved in a crime in which a murder occurs but are not the “triggerman” are not guilty of murder, the legal system treats them as though they are. I agree that if these people are removed from death row but not by execution they should not be included in a list of exonerations. I hope that sometime in the future these people will not be charged with a capital crime, but that is my wish and hope and not a legal certainty.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It would indeed be ridiculous to have the death penalty as a way of showing that murder is wrong. If you’d read some of the posts on this thread, you would see that the idea proposed to support capital punishment is based on a question of justice, not setting an example.

That said, I am opposed to the death penalty, and have explained the reasons with logic, I believe. But the real reasons for or against the DP should never come down to emotion or simply trying to get revenge.

Your arguments are logical and persuasive. I think the emphasis on Church teaching has somehow become lost, although I can’t say that any posts have been off-topic. To me, Church teaching is the slam-dunk position. Maybe I should start a new thread but I’m getting very weary of the same arguments being posted over and over and of having words put in my mouth.

I’ve already left the thread once but felt compelled to come back. I want to emphasize Church teaching but I feel like I’m being led off-course or perhaps taking myself off-course. I don’t know if I can post anymore on this subject - perhaps not now.

I just feel so uncomfortable with the fact that human beings purposely take the lives of other human beings through execution even though they cannot know if those who are executed are truly guilty. I’m all for keeping alleged murderers and those who allegedly have committed other truly heinous crimes off the street. But to take away their lives?

I’m beginning to really think that it would be a better use of my time to pray for those who may have been wrongly executed and for all victims of crime. But then I read a post and feel like I have to respond.

 

[surritter]

Your arguments are logical and persuasive. I think the emphasis on Church teaching has somehow become lost, although I can’t say that any posts have been off-topic. To me, Church teaching is the slam-dunk position. Maybe I should start a new thread but I’m getting very weary of the same arguments being posted over and over and of having words put in my mouth.

I’ve already left the thread once but felt compelled to come back. I want to emphasize Church teaching but I feel like I’m being led off-course or perhaps taking myself off-course. I don’t know if I can post anymore on this subject - perhaps not now.

I just feel so uncomfortable with the fact that human beings purposely take the lives of other human beings through execution even though they cannot know if those who are executed are truly guilty. I’m all for keeping alleged murderers and those who allegedly have committed other truly heinous crimes off the street. But to take away their lives?

I’m beginning to really think that it would be a better use of my time to pray for those who may have been wrongly executed and for all victims of crime. But then I read a post and feel like I have to respond.

I totally agree with you. I was just saying that if there is any merit at all to the support of capital punishment, it would be in the vein of justice, not “showing someone that murder is wrong.”

You and I differ with Ender in that we accept the teachings of the Church as she presents them, not as we wish to interpret them.

 

[dudleysharp]

I think’s it’s hilarious Irony.
Your murdering someone to show murder is wrong.

Murder and execution - Very distinct moral differences
Dudley Sharp

Muina Arthur testified before the New Mexico Legislature on January 29, 2009.

Everyone should have justified sympathy for Muina Arthur, whose son Karl Eugene Chamberlain was executed because he raped and murdered 30 year old Felecia Prechtl.

However, Muina was in error, by saying: "I am the survivor of a murder victim’’, meaning her son’s execution.

Make no mistake, Felicia Prechtl was the innocent rape/murder victim. She was murdered.

Karl Chamberlain was the guilty murderer justly executed for that crime. His just sanction was execution for that murder.

There is a huge moral difference between the murder of an innocent rape/murder victim and the just execution of the guilty rapist/murderer who committed that crime.

Please do not confuse the innocent and the guilty, the victim and the perpetrator, the just sanction and the crime, as does Muina.

Be as opposed to the death penalty as you wish, just don’t equate murder and execution. It is an amoral or an immoral equation.

No one wants any parent to suffer the horror of knowing their child is a rapist/murderer. Karl Eugene Chamberlain was solely responsible for his actions, the rape/murder of Felecia Prechtl, just as he was solely responsible for his mother’s torment, because of his acts and the just sanction he brought upon himself.

Nor do we wish that the parents of the true murder victim, Felecia Prechtl, will have to hear that someone is trying to find some moral equivalence between the rape/murder of their daughter with the execution of her rapist/murderer. It is foul, indeed. Even the hint of it should not be approved.

Please.

Killing equals Killing: The Amoral Confusion of death penalty opponents
Dudley Sharp

There is a very common anti death penalty slogan:

“Why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong?”

We don’t. Even with no sanction, most folks know that committing murder is wrong.

We execute guilty murderers who have murdered innocent people.

The difference between crime and punishment, guilty murderers and their innocent victims is very clear to most.

The moral confusion exists when people blindly accept the amoral or immoral position that all killing is equal.

The anti death penalty folks are just looking at an act – “killing” – and saying all killings are the same. Only an amoral person would equate acts, without considering the purpose behind them.

For those, like some anti death penalty folks, who believe all killing is morally equivalent, they would equate the slaughter of 6 million innocent Jews and 6-7 million additional innocents with the execution of those guilty murderers committing that slaughter. They would also equate the rape and murder of children with the execution of the rapist/murderer.

This is what the anti death penalty folks do, morally equate killing (murder) with the punishment for that murder, another killing (execution).

For such anti death penalty folks to be consistent, they must also equate holding people against their will (illegal kidnapping) with the sanction for it, the holding people against their will (legal incarceration) or the taking money away from people (illegal robbery) with a sanction for that, taking money away from people (legal restitution).

Most folks understand the moral differences.

Some anti death penalty folks are either incapable of knowing the moral differences between crime and punishment, guilty criminals and their innocent victims, or they are knowingly using a dishonest slogan by equating killing (murder) with killing (execution).

Either way, it’s time to stop it. It is just too grotesque a tool.

RELATED LINKS

“The Death Penalty: Neither Hatred nor Revenge”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/20/the-death-penalty-neither-hatred-nor-revenge.aspx

“Death Penalty Support: Religious and Secular Scholars”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html

“The Death Penalty: Not a Human Rights Violation”
homicidesurvivors.com/2006/03/20/the-death-penalty-not-a-human-rights-violation.aspx

“Death Penalty Support Remains Very High: USA & The World”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-polls-support-remains.html

“Physicians & The State Execution of Murderers: No Ethical/Medical Dilemma”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/10/physicians-state-execution-of-murderers.html

copyright 2000-20010 Dudley Sharp: Permission for distribution of this document, in whole or in part, is approved with proper attribution.

 

[dudleysharp]

With all due respect, that may be true in your opinion yet not true in fact.

No, my review of the innocent frauds of the anti death penalty folks is factually true, as even they have confessed.

You didn’t read the review, therefore you reached a sconclusion withou reviewing the facts.

Not good.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is condemnation before investigation. (unconfirmed) Herbert Spencer (1820-1903).

South Carolina recently pardoned two folks executed in the 1930’s. I haven’t reviewed the case, yet.

 

[dudleysharp]

dudleysharp;8574114:

Are you the same Dudley Sharp who authored at least three of the articles you cite? I’d like to point out that every one of these articles is from the same organization, which appears to be a pro-death penalty organization. I’m not saying it is incorrect to use these articles in this thread; I’m merely pointing out the authorship (please understand that this is not a complaint in any form; I actually think it’s great to not waste space in posts when links to what someone has already written are available. I’ve just never run across this before and I’m a bit confused ).

I quote my work, just like you can quote your work that you have placed on this board.

Not confusing, at all.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No, my review of the innocent frauds of the anti death penalty folks is factually true, as even they have confessed.

You didn’t read the review, therefore you reached a sconclusion withou reviewing the facts.

Not good.

PLEASE do NOT tell me what I have done or not done. Again, YOU DO NOT KNOW!

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is condemnation before investigation. (unconfirmed) Herbert Spencer (1820-1903).

And? What is your point? Oh - are you using a quote to show me how I should have read the review (you know, the one that you don’t know if I read or not?) because Herbert Spencer allegedly said something that is relevant? You don’t know if I read the review. You don’t know if I didn’t read the review. You don’t, you know. With all respect, you don’t know unless you can read my mind or have some other way of ascertaining my actions. It appears that you are making what is called an assumption. Isn’t that kinda like condemning me before you investigated whether I read the review? You didn’t even bother to ask me and that is not nice or charitable and I admit that when people accuse me of something, especially when they have absolutely no way of knowing whether I have done it, it pushes a button. Please don’t do this again. I want this thread to be as charitable as possible. Thank you.

South Carolina recently pardoned two folks executed in the 1930’s. I haven’t reviewed the case, yet.

I’m sorry but I have no idea why you have stated this. Do you have a point that you would like to share?

 

[LittleSoldier]

LittleSoldier;8574604:

I quote my work, just like you can quote your work that you have placed on this board.

Not confusing, at all.

I meant it was confusing to ME. That is why I stated it was confusing to me. I didn’t mean it was confusing to YOU. Do you understand the difference? And please, please will you use the function properly? This is the second time I have made that request. Please. What you said is now being presented as what I said. Do I need to ask the moderator to help? This thread is getting so messy now that I can hardly follow it.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Murder and execution - Very distinct moral differences
Dudley Sharp

Muina Arthur testified before the New Mexico Legislature on January 29, 2009.

Everyone should have justified sympathy for Muina Arthur, whose son Karl Eugene Chamberlain was executed because he raped and murdered 30 year old Felecia Prechtl.

However, Muina was in error, by saying: "I am the survivor of a murder victim’’, meaning her son’s execution.

Make no mistake, Felicia Prechtl was the innocent rape/murder victim. She was murdered.

Karl Chamberlain was the guilty murderer justly executed for that crime. His just sanction was execution for that murder.

There is a huge moral difference between the murder of an innocent rape/murder victim and the just execution of the guilty rapist/murderer who committed that crime.

Please do not confuse the innocent and the guilty, the victim and the perpetrator, the just sanction and the crime, as does Muina.

Be as opposed to the death penalty as you wish, just don’t equate murder and execution. It is an amoral or an immoral equation.

No one wants any parent to suffer the horror of knowing their child is a rapist/murderer. Karl Eugene Chamberlain was solely responsible for his actions, the rape/murder of Felecia Prechtl, just as he was solely responsible for his mother’s torment, because of his acts and the just sanction he brought upon himself.

Nor do we wish that the parents of the true murder victim, Felecia Prechtl, will have to hear that someone is trying to find some moral equivalence between the rape/murder of their daughter with the execution of her rapist/murderer. It is foul, indeed. Even the hint of it should not be approved.

Please.

Killing equals Killing: The Amoral Confusion of death penalty opponents
Dudley Sharp

There is a very common anti death penalty slogan:

“Why do we kill people to show that killing people is wrong?”

We don’t. Even with no sanction, most folks know that committing murder is wrong.

We execute guilty murderers who have murdered innocent people.

The difference between crime and punishment, guilty murderers and their innocent victims is very clear to most.

The moral confusion exists when people blindly accept the amoral or immoral position that all killing is equal.

The anti death penalty folks are just looking at an act – “killing” – and saying all killings are the same. Only an amoral person would equate acts, without considering the purpose behind them.

For those, like some anti death penalty folks, who believe all killing is morally equivalent, they would equate the slaughter of 6 million innocent Jews and 6-7 million additional innocents with the execution of those guilty murderers committing that slaughter. They would also equate the rape and murder of children with the execution of the rapist/murderer.

This is what the anti death penalty folks do, morally equate killing (murder) with the punishment for that murder, another killing (execution).

For such anti death penalty folks to be consistent, they must also equate holding people against their will (illegal kidnapping) with the sanction for it, the holding people against their will (legal incarceration) or the taking money away from people (illegal robbery) with a sanction for that, taking money away from people (legal restitution).

Most folks understand the moral differences.

Some anti death penalty folks are either incapable of knowing the moral differences between crime and punishment, guilty criminals and their innocent victims, or they are knowingly using a dishonest slogan by equating killing (murder) with killing (execution).

Either way, it’s time to stop it. It is just too grotesque a tool.

RELATED LINKS

“The Death Penalty: Neither Hatred nor Revenge”
homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/20/the-death-penalty-neither-hatred-nor-revenge.aspx

“Death Penalty Support: Religious and Secular Scholars”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html

“The Death Penalty: Not a Human Rights Violation”
homicidesurvivors.com/2006/03/20/the-death-penalty-not-a-human-rights-violation.aspx

“Death Penalty Support Remains Very High: USA & The World”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-polls-support-remains.html

“Physicians & The State Execution of Murderers: No Ethical/Medical Dilemma”
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/10/physicians-state-execution-of-murderers.html

copyright 2000-20010 Dudley Sharp: Permission for distribution of this document, in whole or in part, is approved with proper attribution.

Have you actually copyrighted a post?