Do you support the Minutemen? Well don't

[ChristianVet]

III. Sovereign nations have the right to control their borders.
36. The Church recognizes the right of sovereign nations to control their territories but rejects such control when it is exerted merely for the purpose of acquiring additional wealth. More powerful economic nations, which have the ability to protect and feed their residents, have a stronger obligation to accommodate migration flows.

The above quote from the document that sprout cited needs clarification.

I for one cannot understand what in the world they are talking about. What exactly do the Bishops mean by this statement?

Any takers?

 

[ChristianVet]

I would like to say something as a devout Catholic who has always detested the fact that some Americans are intent on shutting down religious debate, or religious expression, in the public square;

the Bishops statement on illegal immigration, I feel as an American citizen, goes too far.

They have gone beyond spiritual advice and have now entered politics – they even get specific about what particular governements should or shouldn’t do.

That is too much.

I would be equally upset if the Federal or State government came out with a document that told Catholics not to follow Church teachings, and then proceeded to enumerate the particular Church teachings we should not follow.

The State would have over-stepped its bounds, and Catholic Americans would have a right to be upset.

In this case, the Bishops (with all due respect and in my opinion) have overstepped their bounds.

We have a Congress that makes our laws. That is their God-given responsibility.

And I believe the New Testament is fairly explicity about obeying civil authorities.

 

[sprout]

Are you trying to tell me and people on this forum that the American Catholic Bishops support individuals ILLEGALLY crossing the border?

Is it your interpretation that they support breaking U.S. laws of national sovereignty?

Where have I said as much?

Earlier I asked you, "can you document where the Church has taught or encouraged “breaking any nations established laws – or encourage others to violate a nation’s sovereignty?”

I do, however, put the Soveriegnity of God above ALL men and ALL nations. So that when a nation makes laws that would preclude me or prevent me from following God’s law then I would, of course, have to conscientously object to such laws.

 

[ChristianVet]

Where have I said as much?

Earlier I asked you, "can you document where the Church has taught or encouraged “breaking any nations established laws – or encourage others to violate a nation’s sovereignty?”

I do, however, put the Soveriegnity of God above ALL men and ALL nations. So that when a nation makes laws that would preclude me or prevent me from following God’s law then I would, of course, have to conscientously object to such laws.

All right then, most people know that Mexico’s immigration laws are far more severe and punitive than the U.S.'s laws, would you consider violating their immigration laws?

 

[aspawloski4th]

All right then, most people know that Mexico’s immigration laws are far more severe and punitive than the U.S.'s laws, would you consider violating their immigration laws?

he doesnt have the guts to answer it, he’'ll give you a bunch of liberal mumbo jumobo. Im just wondering then does he think the USA has anyright to control immigration. to me he is ounds ing more and more like the people who were trying to build the tower of babel.

 

[Ender]

the Bishops statement on illegal immigration, I feel as an American citizen, goes too far.

They have gone beyond spiritual advice and have now entered politics – they even get specific about what particular governements should or shouldn’t do.

That is too much.

This is really the point that needs to be understood. Regardless of their intentions or even their understanding of the issue, putting their moral authority behind specific political solutions is a failure on their part to properly distinguish between moral goals and prudential solutions. I have no confidence whatever that as a group the bishops have any real grasp of the full nature of the problem but even if they clearly understood it it would still be improper for them to put their moral authority behind any particular solution.

I am no more inclined to follow a bishop’s prescription to solve the immigration problem than I would be to go to one for advice on plumbing. This is not so much a question of which approaches are moral as it is of what actions will work. There is really an easy test to see that this is so: unless a bishop says that we are morally obligated to accept his solution … we aren’t required to believe that he knows what he’s talking about.

Ender

 

[sprout]

he doesnt have the guts to answer it, he’'ll give you a bunch of liberal mumbo jumobo. Im just wondering then does he think the USA has anyright to control immigration. to me he is** ounds ing more and more like the people who were trying to build the tower of babel.**

that’s probably due to the fact that you spend all your time reading into what I’ve posted rather than what I’ve posted, plus you seem to think you have some “gift” to “read” minds and souls across the internet.

Do you think you could possibly try to focus on what’s being posted rather than your fanciful imagination?

 

[sprout]

All right then, most people know that Mexico’s immigration laws are far more severe and punitive than the U.S.'s laws, would you consider violating their immigration laws?

why would I consider violating laws? I don’t understand the relevance of the question. What does your question have to do with either the Minutemen or the Catholic Church’s teaching on immigration?

and could you please answer my question, first, before answering my question with your unrelated question.

 

[Scarecrow]

catholicleague.org/07press_releases/quarter_3/070709_sd_minutemen.htm

give me a break!!!11

of course they harrass catholics… 99.9% of the mexicans and others latinos who ILLEGALLY cross the boarder happen to be Catholic!! What are they supposed to ignore them because they cannot mess with a catholic crossing ILLEGALLY?

please ppl

They are not targeting catholics. its just that catholics are illegally crossing the boarder instead of finding legal means to immigrate.

 

[geezerbob]

give me a break!!!11

of course they harrass catholics… 99.9% of the mexicans and others latinos who ILLEGALLY cross the boarder happen to be Catholic!! What are they supposed to ignore them because they cannot mess with a catholic crossing ILLEGALLY?

please ppl

They are not targeting catholics. its just that catholics are illegally crossing the boarder instead of finding legal means to immigrate.

Read the first post in the thread, Scarecrow. The thread is about harassing US Catholics at church, not people illegally crossing the border.

 

[Scarecrow]

Read the first post in the thread, Scarecrow. The thread is about harassing US Catholics at church, not people illegally crossing the border.

oh. i’ve been bad. I apologize.

I made the jump to crossing the boarder. However, this can be viewed as racist more thhan anti catholic since most latinos are catholic.

 

[ChristianVet]

This is really the point that needs to be understood. Regardless of their intentions or even their understanding of the issue, putting their moral authority behind specific political solutions is a failure on their part to properly distinguish between moral goals and prudential solutions. I have no confidence whatever that as a group the bishops have any real grasp of the full nature of the problem but even if they clearly understood it it would still be improper for them to put their moral authority behind any particular solution.

I am no more inclined to follow a bishop’s prescription to solve the immigration problem than I would be to go to one for advice on plumbing. This is not so much a question of which approaches are moral as it is of what actions will work. There is really an easy test to see that this is so: unless a bishop says that we are morally obligated to accept his solution … we aren’t required to believe that he knows what he’s talking about.

Ender

Ender,

That is exactly what I am thinking.

The Bishops have an obligation to advice us as to what is morally correct, not what is politically correct.

It is a matter of them not having a Full understanding of the issue, the entire matter is very Complex politically. It is not a simple issue of poor people seeking an economic solution.

It is Far deeper than that.

As I feel my conscience has been properly formed by many years of Catholic teaching, prayer and study, I do not reach the same “political” decision that they reach, with the same teachings.

The bottomline, in my view, is that even if a Group of bishops gather – from any nation, or persuasion — and try to exert Moral Authority, the only real Authority is the Holy Father.

People on this forum love to throw around the phrase that the Pope said this, or the Pope said that.

I say, prove it. Cite the encyclical, verse and chapter.
Cite the event, and give me the full context and the exact words the Pope said.

Otherwise, you’re just whistling in the breeze.

 

[sprout]

oh. i’ve been bad. I apologize.

I made the jump to crossing the boarder. However, this can be viewed as racist more thhan anti catholic since most latinos are catholic.

really? you made a jump and crossed the border? did you have papers?

I do think you’re on to something there, though. Of all the immigrant groups that have been hated and reviled in the US most have been Catholic i.e. Italians, Irish, and now Latin Americans. There hasn’t been an issue with Protestants coming to the US.

In fact, most of the nations whose citizens are free to come into the US without applying first for a Visa are guess what? Protestant.

Ever heard of the “Know Nothing Party”? fitting name isn’t it.
newadvent.org/cathen/08677a.htm

On the Know-Nothing Party (anti-immigrant party)

Abraham Lincoln; Letter to Joshua F. Speed

August 24, 1855

I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we begin by declaring that “all men are created equal.” We now practically read it “all men are created equal, except negroes.” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read “all men are created equal, except negroes, and** foreigners**, and catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty-to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy.

Abraham Lincoln
nps.gov/archive/liho/writer/immigran.htm

 

[Scarecrow]

pesky protestants! lets face it, America hates catholics lol

 

[system]

pesky protestants! lets face it, America hates catholics lol

Not true. We Catholics are valued at election time.

That’s when we’re suddenly best buddies with those who would not have allowed us into their country club not long ago.

 

[Scarecrow]

lol

after all, where would America be without Pizza???

 

[sprout]

People on this forum love to throw around the phrase that the Pope said this, or the Pope said that.

I say, prove it. Cite the encyclical, verse and chapter.
Cite the event, and give me the full context and the exact words the Pope said.

Otherwise, you’re just whistling in the breeze.

I doubt that I could fit into 500 words or less quotes from all the encyclicals. Several have already been posted earlier in this thread along with links.

Here is a link to the USCCB website specifically on all the Papal Statements usccb.org/mrs/pcmr/statements.shtml. It has links to all the papal encyclicals, apostolic exhortations, pontifical councils, addresses, etc. to your heart’s content. A good place to start would be “Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope” (usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml)andand) follow the references given in the bibliography. They even link to them to make it real easy for you.

Pacem in Terris

Apostolic Exhortation: Ecclessia in America,

Pope John Paul II, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis

Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People

The Role of the Receiving Community in the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Refugees July, 2002

The Church and Undocumented Migrants and Refugees, including those who are not Christian

A few recent articles worth viewing:

Vatican cardinal says U.S.-Mexico fence ‘inhuman’
by Philip Pullella
Reuters
November 14, 2006

VATICAN CITY - A senior Vatican cardinal on Tuesday condemned the building of walls between countries to keep out immigrants and said Washington’s plan to build a fence on the U.S.-Mexican border was part of an “inhuman program”.

Cardinal Renato Martino made his comments at a news conference **presenting Pope Benedict’s message for the Roman Catholic Church’s World Day of Migrants and Refugees, in which the Pope called for more laws to help immigrants integrate. **

“Speaking of borders, I must unfortunately say that in a world that greeted the fall of the Berlin Wall with joy, new walls are being built between neighborhood and neighborhood, city and city, nation and nation,” said Martino, head of the Vatican’s Council for Justice and Peace. catholicmediareport.org/story.php?story_id=2379

“Public authorities unjustly deny the rights of human persons if they block or impede emigration or immigration except where grave requirements of the common good, considered objectively, demand it (Pius XII; Speeches, 1959).”

“Every human being has the right to freedom of movement and of residence within the confines of his own country; and, when there are just reasons for it, the right to emigrate to other countries and take up residence there (Pacem in Terris) Pope John XXIII.”

Indeed, each person’s right to seek opportunities for the work necessary for the sustenance and development of himself and his family must be recognized, even beyond national and continental borders. This certainly does not exclude the legitimacy of regulation of immigration in the light of the common good of each individual nation, to be considered, however, in the context of the other nations of the world (Pope John Paul II, Observatore Romano, 1990).

 

[Ender]

Read the first post in the thread, Scarecrow. The thread is about harassing US Catholics at church, not people illegally crossing the border.

No, this thread is about the Minutemen and whether or not they should be supported in their efforts to limit illegal immigration. The first post contained a link to a news article alleging that a group of Minutemen harassed Catholics at church, with the implication that this behavior was typical of the Minutemen organization. I seriously doubt that the Minutemen have any concern at all about the fact that many (most?) of the immigrants are Catholics. For myself, I never get much beyond the part where the immigrants are identified as … illegal. On the other hand, to the extent that Catholics aid illegal immigration it would be reasonable to assume that they are part of the problem.

Ender

 

[ChristianVet]

I doubt that I could fit into 500 words or less quotes from all the encyclicals. Several have already been posted earlier in this thread along with links. :

If you make a specific statement about a specific subject and quote a specific individual, it is beholden upon you to find the exact statement, within the exact encylical, addressing the exact issue.

To simply supply a website for the Vatican is ridiculous. That would be paramount to me quoting the president and giving you the website to the White House.

You’re gonna have to do better than that to convince anyone of your side of the issue.

Here is a link to the USCCB website specifically on all the Papal Statements usccb.org/mrs/pcmr/statements.shtml. It has links to all the papal encyclicals, apostolic exhortations, pontifical councils, addresses, etc. to your heart’s content. A good place to start would be “Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope” (usccb.org/mrs/stranger.shtml)andand) follow the references given in the bibliography. They even link to them to make it real easy for you.

Pacem in Terris

Apostolic Exhortation: Ecclessia in America,

Pope John Paul II, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis

Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People

The Role of the Receiving Community in the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Refugees July, 2002

The Church and Undocumented Migrants and Refugees, including those who are not Christian

A few recent articles worth viewing:

These quotes do not strengthen your case. They are so “broadly written” and non-specific that they virtually say nothing directly.

Since I am not the only Catholic who really only gives credence to what the popes have said, as opposed to Vatican officials or bishops, I find the popes’ quotes to be supportive of my position.

So unless you can give me a specific sentence, from a specific document, quoting a specific Pope – I’m afraid your view does not hold water.

 

[ChristianVet]

No, this thread is about the Minutemen and whether or not they should be supported in their efforts to limit illegal immigration. The first post contained a link to a news article alleging that a group of Minutemen harassed Catholics at church, with the implication that this behavior was typical of the Minutemen organization. I seriously doubt that the Minutemen have any concern at all about the fact that many (most?) of the immigrants are Catholics. For myself, I never get much beyond the part where the immigrants are identified as … illegal. On the other hand, to the extent that Catholics aid illegal immigration it would be reasonable to assume that they are part of the problem.

Ender

Again, I agree with you.

What the Bishops, and Vatican officials for that much, should be doing is first of all an ***in-depth study ***of the specific problem going on in Mexico, the U.S. and the southern border. Instead of giving platitudes that are designed to sound like the Beattitudes.

We have serious illegal drug smuggling, human trafficing, child pornography, Islamic-terrorist threats going on near our southern border – not just poor families seeking relief. Which, by the way, is of great concern to most Catholic Americans, but no greater a concern than for those who have lost their jobs here in America due to NAFTA and illegal immigration.

When desparate individuals will work for slave wages, then all individual workers wages make a dive for the bottom. That is not a Living Wage and it puts more and more families, here in the U.S., in dire straits financially.

Tell me, would bishops and archbishops, who presumably have a comfortable place to live, with three meals a day on the table, and comfortable surroundings – really understand what modern day parents go through, both holding multiple outside jobs to keep their children fed and in shoes?

The point here is that poverty is growing everywhere. It isn’t just in Mexico or India. The U.S. has plenty of its own, in case you didn’t view it first hand after Katrina.

And sadly, when American companies lay off American workers to hire foreign workers at slave wages, many will not even allow American workers to Interview for jobs.

They have every intention of hiring illegals, paying them under the table, and not being held accountable for safety and financial regulations passed by the U.S. Congress.

Therefore, All workers and families become endangered.
The things I’ve stated are only the tip of the iceberg. There are many other complications that makes this issue – not ready for prime time by the American bishops.

I respect their wisdom when they have the whole picture.

Sadly, much of it is still missing because political heavyweights have made themselves front and center – while American families get swept under the rug.