Do you support the Minutemen? Well don't

[estesbob]

actuall this encyclical along with a plethora of others are historically consistent in teaching the faithful how to apply our faith in modern situations, for a partial list of these documents:

I dont think anyone here believes if is just to treat an illegal immigrant cruelly or taxe advantage of them in any way. The questions are:

1, Is it moral to try and keep them out of the country
2, Is it moral to send them back if you aprehend them

The Churchs answer to both those questions is YES

 

[sprout]

I dont think anyone here believes if is just to treat an illegal immigrant cruelly or taxe advantage of them in any way. The questions are:

1, Is it moral to try and keep them out of the country
2, Is it moral to send them back if you aprehend them

The Churchs answer to both those questions is YES

Although I agree somewhat with your assessment, the Church does put conditions on both items. It’s not a black & white issue.

If you are trying to evaluate what the Church teaches regarding the responsibility of Soveriegn nations in controlling borders it is more true than not that a soveriegn nation may licitly control her borders, but cannot do so in a way that violates the dignity and God given rights of humans. Common good refers to all of mankind, not just “select citizens”. Since I am not a soveriegn nation this does not apply to me personally.

If you, as in my case, are trying to evaluate personal accountability and responsibility as a follower of Christ, then it’s very clear that we are bound to give comfort, solace, and above all charity towards our neighbor i.e. the example of the Samaritan.

I would invite you to read the Pastoral Statements by our Pastors.

 

[estesbob]

If you, as in my case, are trying to evaluate personal accountability and responsibility as a follower of Christ, then it’s very clear that we are bound to give comfort, solace, and above all charity towards our neighbor i.e. the example of the Samaritan.

I would invite you to read the Pastoral Statements by our Pastors.

I have read the statements. You seem to be interperting them to mean that giving comfort means giving Sanctuary. That would be breaking the law-something the Church forbids.

 

[yannick]

I dont think anyone here believes if is just to treat an illegal immigrant cruelly or taxe advantage of them in any way. The questions are:

1, Is it moral to try and keep them out of the country
2, Is it moral to send them back if you aprehend them

The Churchs answer to both those questions is YES

Well my dear, Catholicism is a lot more than a set of morals and law, it is a religion and the Religion of Charity taken to the highest degree (ie. the Cross, the given up of oneself) let’s not hide behind the question: “is it moral?”
The question “is it moral ?” was not asked or debated when europeen came over… was it moral for us to come? was it moral to stay? wouldn’t it be moral for indians to have everybody out? No my dear we find a way to make it work. Today it’s mexicans, let’s not forget that them used to be us.
So the real question is: Is it charitable? is it Catholic in the proper sense? Clearly it is not… unless the popes are wrong…oops!!! they’re infallible. I guess that makes me right.
Our Lord did multiply bread and fish he will do the same with our ressources through our inteligence, innovation and our spirit of rising above challenges (after all this is the american way) if we find a way to live together; remember the the offertory song “Ubi Caritas et amor Deus ubi es…” *(“where there is Charity and Love God is”) *

Yannick

 

[estesbob]

Well my dear, Catholicism is a lot more than a set of morals and law, it is a religion and the Religion of Charity taken to the highest degree (ie. the Cross, the given up of oneself) let’s not hide behind the question: “is it moral?”
The question “is it moral ?” was not asked or debated when europeen came over… was it moral for us to come? was it moral to stay? wouldn’t it be moral for indians to have everybody out? No my dear we find a way to make it work. Today it’s mexicans, let’s not forget that them used to be us.
So the real question is: Is it charitable? is it Catholic in the proper sense? Clearly it is not… unless the popes are wrong…oops!!! they’re infallible. I guess that makes me right.
Our Lord did multiply bread and fish he will do the same with our ressources through our inteligence, innovation and our spirit of rising above challenges (after all this is the american way) if we find a way to live together; remember the the offertory song “Ubi Caritas et amor Deus ubi es…” *(“where there is Charity and Love God is”) *

Yannick

Thank you for your rude and condescending reply. You may think that open borders and no immigration controls is the charitable thing to do but that is not in any way shape or form the teachings of the Church .

As an employer I face civil and criminal charges if I employ illegal immigrants. I suspect that you aren’t a employer which is why it is easy for you to tell me to be charitable in that your charity costs you nothing. It is easy to be charitable with other peoples money.

 

[jmj603]

It is nice to see someone aknowledge this fact once in a while. U.S. citizens are Americans, but so are Canadians…

What do Canadians call citizens of the United States?

How do you distinguish these people from Canadians?

If Mexicans are Americans, why are there Mexican-Americans?

Anti-Americanism is offensive and deserves reprobation. It does not come from the Church and is against the teachings of the Church because it is offensive and insulting. It is the sort of insult that leads eventually to war. Someone levies an online insult against one foreign country, and some kid sees it and develops a grudge. Later, he goes on to talk politics and to vote and organize and serve in the military, and that grudge can develop into something dangerous. This isn’t just child’s play. As Catholics and peacemakers, we need to respect the legitimate aspirations of countries.

It is astonishing to me to see Catholics who ostensibly want to defend the Catholic position on immigration to the United States try to do so by advocating internationalism and anti-Americanism. Not only is it counter-productive, but it is truly immoral. In fact, one of the reasons it is immoral is because it is counter-productive.

 

[sprout]

I have read the statements. You seem to be interperting them to mean that giving comfort means giving Sanctuary. That would be breaking the law-something the Church forbids.

First, it is not against the law to give sanctuary to an undocumented immigrant. I know that one of the bills that our Bishops opposed recently before Congress was trying to make it a crime to do so and failed.

Second, the Church does not forbid breaking man-made laws that violate the laws of God.

1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, “authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse.”

I don’t see how it can be justified under God’s laws to make it a crime to give solace or sanctuary, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc (see Christ’s admonition in Matthew 25:31-46). Such a law would be in violation of God’s word and bring forth God’s vengeance (see sins that cry out to God for vengeance). (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167692&page=4) my previous post #60. To say nothing of how Nazi-like such a law would be.

Again, if you truly care to understand where I am coming from on this issue you have only to read the Church’s Pastoral Statements and Encyclicals (The Compendium of Social Doctrine is online now too!) on the subject as that is where I am forming my conscience on this issue.

Aside from that this discussion has 1) gotten WAY OFF TRACK and 2) is just going in circles.

Adios Amigos! Via con Dios!

 

[yannick]

Thank you for your rude and condescending reply. You may think that open borders and no immigration controls is the charitable thing to do but that is not in any way shape or form the teachings of the Church .

As an employer I face civil and criminal charges if I employ illegal immigrants. I suspect that you aren’t a employer which is why it is easy for you to tell me to be charitable in that your charity costs you nothing. It is easy to be charitable with other peoples money.

Well again my Dear Friend. Rude? aurely it was not. If “condescending” I was just using the same tone (chatingly speaking) that you were using in your post, I know it may hurt coming from the other side, but you know what they say about sticks and stones right?
As for your assumptions, again you’re are wrong. I have been running my own business for 4 years now. To be honest I probably don’t have the same problems that big employers have since I only have 14 employees. My point is not opened borders, my point is that we as catholic can make our points of known in and with charity. If your concern is employment and fees you incur for employing undocumented aliens, just don’t employ them, if they are documented than if it rocks your boat don’t employ them either…
The point being it’s up to us the employers. But calling human being “illegal” catecorizing them as some subhumans is just not the catholic way… It is always the same chorus, everytime something goes wrong in a country let’s get the immigrants, let’s get the irishs, let’s get the italians, let’s get the jews, today it’s let’s get the mexicans… catch my drift?
Again I know that when my ancestors came here the idians did not ask for visas, though illegal they have made this land theirs and I am glad. Let’s keep an open mind, that’s all I’m saying.
“them” used to be “us”

 

[Indyann]

---

Look–The Church has spoken on this matter. Whether you agree or not—that is up to you.

Yes, the Church has spoken, and we would all do well to abide by Her teachings.

archindy.org/archbishop/pastoral-2007.html

 

[aspawloski4th]

First, it is not against the law to give sanctuary to an undocumented immigrant. I know that one of the bills that our Bishops opposed recently before Congress was trying to make it a crime to do so and failed.

Second, the Church does not forbid breaking man-made laws that violate the laws of God.

I don’t see how it can be justified under God’s laws to make it a crime to give solace or sanctuary, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc (see Christ’s admonition in Matthew 25:31-46). Such a law would be in violation of God’s word and bring forth God’s vengeance (see sins that cry out to God for vengeance). (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167692&page=4) my previous post #60. To say nothing of how Nazi-like such a law would be.

Again, if you truly care to understand where I am coming from on this issue you have only to read the Church’s Pastoral Statements and Encyclicals (The Compendium of Social Doctrine is online now too!) on the subject as that is where I am forming my conscience on this issue.

Aside from that this discussion has 1) gotten WAY OFF TRACK and 2) is just going in circles.

Adios Amigos! Via con Dios!

when harboring an illegal alien you are harboring and criminal and a fugative, doing that is immoral simply put. if one is not documented one is illegal.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Well again my Dear Friend. Rude? aurely it was not. If “condescending” I was just using the same tone (chatingly speaking) that you were using in your post, I know it may hurt coming from the other side, but you know what they say about sticks and stones right?
As for your assumptions, again you’re are wrong. I have been running my own business for 4 years now. To be honest I probably don’t have the same problems that big employers have since I only have 14 employees. My point is not opened borders, my point is that we as catholic can make our points of known in and with charity. If your concern is employment and fees you incur for employing undocumented aliens, just don’t employ them, if they are documented than if it rocks your boat don’t employ them either…
The point being it’s up to us the employers. But calling human being “illegal” catecorizing them as some subhumans is just not the catholic way… It is always the same chorus, everytime something goes wrong in a country let’s get the immigrants, let’s get the irishs, let’s get the italians, let’s get the jews, today it’s let’s get the mexicans… catch my drift?
Again I know that when my ancestors came here the idians did not ask for visas, though illegal they have made this land theirs and I am glad. Let’s keep an open mind, that’s all I’m saying.
“them” used to be “us”

if they came here undocumented they came here illegally , thus an illegal alien. please dont make comparrisons to the far distant past. the american indian didnt have sovereign borders or a unified governement, or written law. no unified language either. they were not a unified nation in any sense of the word what so ever. so any of our white ancestors were invading indian territory than indians were invading eachother’s territory. its a differnt society now. illegals are driving wages down, drain hospital resourses, and yes not putting anything in the collection plate at the Catholic churches they attend, while demanding special spanish Masses for themselves. enough is enough , draining our nation is going to make this a 3rd world nation for everyone.

 

[sprout]

when harboring an illegal alien you are harboring and criminal and a fugative, doing that is immoral simply put. if one is not documented one is illegal.

LOL. Give me a break. First, if an “undocumented worker” is HERE in the US they are not a criminal, as I cleared up earlier “unlawful presence” is merely a civil offense - the same as pirating music off the internet is a civil offense. By your logic if I have a teenager pirating music off the internet, then I’m “harboring a fugitive”.

Harboring a fugitive that’s a good one! Thanks for the laugh! This thread could use a little laughter!

 

[Walking_Home]

LOL. Give me a break. First, if an “undocumented worker” is HERE in the US they are not a criminal, as I cleared up earlier “unlawful presence” is merely a civil offense - the same as pirating music off the internet is a civil offense. By your logic if I have a teenager pirating music off the internet, then I’m “harboring a fugitive”.

Harboring a fugitive that’s a good one! Thanks for the laugh! This thread could use a little laughter!

---

You may think its funny—but many a time small offences that do not seem much—if not corrected can lead to more serious offences. And that madam/sir is not funny.

 

[Walking_Home]

I just cannot believe someone thinks it is funny to break the law.

 

[aspawloski4th]

LOL. Give me a break. First, if an “undocumented worker” is HERE in the US they are not a criminal, as I cleared up earlier “unlawful presence” is merely a civil offense - the same as pirating music off the internet is a civil offense. By your logic if I have a teenager pirating music off the internet, then I’m “harboring a fugitive”.

Harboring a fugitive that’s a good one! Thanks for the laugh! This thread could use a little laughter!

that person is a criminal in the classic sense of the word. please dont compare it to something less consequencial. you obviously dont care about the havoc they are creating in some places, like in west michigan where I live.Ive watched parrishes gone in severe debt catering to them, ive seen plenty of emergency rooms flodded by them taking their kids in for the sniffles,ive watched wages in ceartain professions go thru the floor on the account of them.I have nextdoor neighbors, who after being there 6 years,dont know a lick of english. now there are numerous reports of disease cases of diseases we thought were done, because illegals bfought them in. I say one by one deport every last illegal.

 

[jj2011]

*From the Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in America:
*

…the Synod Fathers recalled that “the Church in America must be a vigilant advocate, defending against any unjust restriction the natural right of individual persons to move freely within their own nation and from one nation to another. Attention must be called to the rights of migrants and their families and to respect for their human dignity, even in cases of non-legal immigration”.

Migrants should be met with a hospitable and welcoming attitude which can encourage them to become part of the Church’s life, always with due regard for their freedom and their specific cultural identity. Cooperation between the dioceses from which they come and those in which they settle, also through specific pastoral structures provided for in the legislation and praxis of the Church, has proved extremely beneficial to this end. In this way the most adequate and complete pastoral care possible can be ensured. The Church in America must be constantly concerned to provide for the effective evangelization of those recent arrivals who do not yet know Christ.

 

[aspawloski4th]

From the Apostolic Exhortation, Ecclesia in America:

…the Synod Fathers recalled that “the Church in America must be a vigilant advocate, defending against any unjust restriction the natural right of individual persons to move freely within their own nation and from one nation to another. Attention must be called to the rights of migrants and their families and to respect for their human dignity, even in cases of non-legal immigration”.

Migrants should be met with a hospitable and welcoming attitude which can encourage them to become part of the Church’s life, always with due regard for their freedom and their specific cultural identity. Cooperation between the dioceses from which they come and those in which they settle, also through specific pastoral structures provided for in the legislation and praxis of the Church, has proved extremely beneficial to this end. In this way the most adequate and complete pastoral care possible can be ensured. The Church in America must be constantly concerned to provide for the effective evangelization of those recent arrivals who do not yet know Christ.

when you break the law you give up your rights. illegals have no rights under the law except maybe to not be killed and to the shirt on their back.

 

[sprout]

that person is a criminal in the classic sense of the word. please dont compare it to something less consequencial. you obviously dont care about the havoc they are creating in some places, like in west michigan where I live.Ive watched parrishes gone in severe debt catering to them, ive seen plenty of emergency rooms flodded by them taking their kids in for the sniffles,ive watched wages in ceartain professions go thru the floor on the account of them.I have nextdoor neighbors, who after being there 6 years,dont know a lick of english. now there are numerous reports of disease cases of diseases we thought were done, because illegals bfought them in. I say one by one deport every last illegal.

Wow! that could be titled “The Litany of a Xenophobe”
It’s just WRONG to be going around with these kinds of attitudes in your heart.

I’ll certainly pray for you to have more peace and charity.

FYI: I’m only comparing it to what it IS “a civil offense” to try and give you some perspective. You’ve gotten yourself all worked up and are calling human beings “illegals” and referring to these humans, these families of immigrants as “criminals” solely on their “presence” here. Their “presence” (if in fact it’s unlawful) is a civil offense. If you don’t believe me google it, do some research. You need to get a grip on reality and understand the difference between criminal laws and civil laws.

How do you know your neighbors are here unlawfully? Have you asked to see their birth certificates? Or drivers licenses? or passport? or are you just judging them by the color of their skin and the language they speak?

That’s one of the issues I have with the whole idea of the Minutemen is they don’t have the authority anymore than you or I to determine who is here legally and who is not. I could go up to the first Mexican-looking person I see and ask to see their identification, but that would be just wrong and a violation of their rights. Can’t you see how wrong that is? How would you like it if anyone and everyone came up to you asking to see your identification? suspecting you of being a criminal? a thief?

The thing is, these Minutemen are the ones who are unpatriotic. Our Country has a set of rules and officials to enforce those rules and they decide which rules they want to enforce and which ones they don’t and how they want to enforce them…yadayadayada. That’s not good enough for the Minutemen. They think the Country should be doing things THEIR way, the way THEY’D like it to be and so they take matters into their own hands. Just like President Bush said, they’re vigilantes. They’re trying to enforce their own laws.

We have a democracy in this country. It’s run by a democracy, so that when a handful of old geezers decide they don’t like the way the government is handling things, instead of forming their own “minutemen-geezer patrol” they’re to talk to their legislators, talk to the public and get the majority of voters to change the law rather than take the law into their own hands. That’s the “democratic” way. That’s patriotism is. A patriot is " one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests" rather than one who takes the law into their own hands.

 

[jabelltulsa]

The people will not fix their country if they are given an easy way out by coming here… We can only help them by helping them stay in their country and make it a better place.

Quoted for Truth

I am in complete agreement. We need to secure our boarders for many reasons that are obvious.

The people of Mexico, Central America, and South America, unfortunately need to rise up and change their governments. As long as they have a way up and out, they will take it. I have been to Mexico. I have seen the corruption. I have seen the poverty.

People from this region have a beautiful culture, and wonderful lands; they are also wonderful people. I pray that they will rebuild their countries so that they will serve the people instead of oppress them.

 

[jabelltulsa]

We have a democracy in this country. It’s run by a democracy, so that when a handful of old geezers decide they don’t like the way the government is handling things, instead of forming their own “minutemen-geezer patrol” they’re to talk to their legislators, talk to the public and get the majority of voters to change the law rather than take the law into their own hands. That’s the “democratic” way. That’s patriotism is. A patriot is " one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests" rather than one who takes the law into their own hands.

I have to disagree with some of your post, here. I’m not trying to be picky here, but I have to interject this. We do not live in a democracy. We live in a republic. A democracy would be extremely chaotic. In a democracy, we would vote on every issue, and every issue that would come up would have to be voted on; the majority would rule. This is not always the best practice. We have elected representatives to do this for us. Our job is to keep them in line with a vote for their election or that of another candidate. A democracy would do away with this form of representation.

In our system, our founding fathers setup the small, but well worded constitution, and then made it very difficult to change. The document limits the power of the federal government (read BOR 1-10 - "The government shall not … ") The responsibility of government does, in fact, rely primarily on the private citizen. We should govern ourselves first - Freedom with responsibility. After that, it should go local, state, then federal.

I digress … back to the subject at hand …

We are allowed to protest, and practice free speech in all forms, and we should feel it our civic duty to do so in political matters.

What we do not have the right to do, is to threaten, spit upon, beat up, or oppress other people.

In watching those videos about the minutemen (faction?), I would want my law enforcement officers to arrest, or at very least, issue citations to those who did these things to other people - citizens or not.

If these people are illegal, then we have to do our best to get them back to the country of their origin, where they can apply for naturalization. This is not that simple; don’t worry, I understand that.

A closed boarder would fix most of this situation for the US. The Mexicans will have to sort out their government on their own. I believe they can do it.