Do you support the second amendment?

[Brendan]

Put it this way: Guns are used to kill, be it animals or humans. Killing is their job.

I would claim that punching holes in paper and breaking little clay Frisbees is their job.

We can validate our respective claims by comparing how often guns are used to put holes in paper or break little orange clay Frisbees vs the number of times that they are used to kill.

What do you think the ratio is?

 

[Duesenberg]

I couldn’t find a better link–but do the math, the muskets would take longer than the hand-guns (or whatever they’re called); yet, consider that people would be lined up (3 thick) to be somewhat effective… so you want to compare today’s weapon’s destructive power to them yonder chunks?

My regrets but we’re not going back to muskets.

 

[Brendan]

Puckle gun -1718

Repeating flintlock - 1760

First revolver - 1598

Generally speaking, civilians had BETTER weapons than the military, especially in the way of repeating firearms.

In addition, there was no prohibition on civilians owning artillery, and even equipping private ships as ships of war

 

[Brendan]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[FollowChrist34]

Along these lines I think ISIS is pretty blown away by Stephen Paddock. If you’ll pardon the pun. Talk about getting upstaged.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

I think the reason you see democratic administrations in cities is because the Republican ethos of “minimal government” only works super-well in rural environments. It breaks down when exposed to urban centers that requires more rules to govern closer and more frequent human interactions.

That’s a curious POV considering that Detroit didn’t start its decline while Republicans were in city government.

Free trade killed Detroit. Whoever just happened to be in charge of the city at any particular moment secondary to that overwhelmingly primary causation.

New York did much better under Guliani than under extremists like the mayor there now.

Crime fell under Giuliani because he just so happened to be the mayor of the city roughly 20 years after Roe V. Wade. Crime was falling practically nation-wide.

The problem is progressives view rules in terms of controlling people’s lives. That’s not the job of government, unless it is authoritarian or totalitarian

More vagaries and hand-waving… Virtually every government policy or program post-Spanish-American War directly harpoons your statement here.

Progressives don’t want to control your life. Quite the opposite.

 

[Vonsalza]

Jamie5:

Put it this way: Guns are used to kill, be it animals or humans. Killing is their job.

I would claim that punching holes in paper and breaking little clay Frisbees is their job.

We can validate our respective claims by comparing how often guns are used to put holes in paper or break little orange clay Frisbees vs the number of times that they are used to kill.

What do you think the ratio is?

The modern semi-automatic rifle actions and handguns were designed as people-hunters. They’re obviously very good at that job.

 

[JonNC]

Nothing wrong with hunting… just, why do you have to have access to guns that can put upwards of ten rounds in bamby before you feast on it?

Maran atha!

Angel

When did I say I wanted a ten round magazine to hunt? When did anyone say that?

 

[ChaosGamma]

Yes, I too learned this in school. That doesn’t mean it’s not nonsense.

Who’s our sovereign if not “We the People”?

Who indeed? The enlightenment nonsense cooked up by the founders had a collision with reality and the result has been the monstrous, serpentine Leviathan currently sitting in Washington. But while I might not be able to untangle the beast to find where it gets its will from, I think I can rest assured it is not the people. Why? Well, just for one, we have the Supreme Court which seems to get away with overturning the will of the people an awful lot. There are no peasant riots against the Court, the most we get is the whining of conservatives who have, once again, failed to conserve anything.

Also, no, I’m not sure what you’re point is about Europe. So they didn’t form separate nations. They arguably morphed into them though. Independent America was much more similar to Colonial America (and Great Britain) than Revolutionary France was to the Ancien Regime. Arguably, America’s Constitution was more British than Britain itself by that time (the President had the same powers that the Crown theoretically had, which were much more than what it actually had). And now we’ve got a Europe that is full of republics (whether crowned or not) based on the Anglo-American model. If anything, the real difference is that the conquered regions have drunk more deeply than their conquering overlords.

 

[JonNC]

…hey, but that’s ok, no worries, no one keeps tabs!

Maran atha!

Angel

When will you stop with the bearing of false witness?

 

[Vonsalza]

Jamie5:

Guns are not tools, they are weapons whose purpose is to kill. This is just in regard to the “X” kills people too, be it food, cars, tools, etc…argument.

Guns are tools…

Yes. Tools explicitly designed for killing human beings, in the case of assault rifles and handguns. This is unlike your car, a knife, or any other object used to kill people for which its designed purpose IS NOT killing people…

 

[JonNC]

Yes. Tools explicitly designed for killing human beings, in the case of assault rifles and handguns. This is unlike your car, a knife, or any other object used to kill people for which its designed purpose IS NOT killing people…

Amazing. Hundreds of millions of guns in citizen hands that have not fulfilled their function. On the other hand , socialist governments have been much more successful at that.
Guns, like Amy other tool, are dependent on the motives of the user. There are guns in my house that have never jumped up and killed someone. They just sit there unless we pick them up. And even when we’ve picked them up, they haven’t killed anyone.

 

[phil19034]

The President did not have the same powers as the King when our founding
happened, and still does not. One example, the Queen has the legal right
to abolish the government, our President does not.

Anyway, , if you think our founding was filled with a bunch of nonsense, we
will have to agree to disagree and end our conversation here.

God Bless

 

[Brendan]

The modern semi-automatic rifle actions and handguns were designed as people-hunters. They’re obviously very good at that job.

Interesting premise.

Here are two modern semi-automatic rifles

The Marlin 60
http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo...semi-auto-rimfire-rifles/1702466.uts?slotId=1

And it’s cousin the Ruger 10/22
http://www.cabelas.com/product/shoo...r-takedown-rimfire-rifle/1836531.uts?slotId=2

Both are commonly used to teach youths how to shoot. I use a set of Marlins to run the Boy Scout Rifle Merit badge. They use the .22 caliber round that so underpowered that it is illegal to use hunting anything larger than squirrels in most states.

If your premise is true, it you would likewise hold that if we took their corporate Executives and made them swear on a stack of Bibles, while connected to polygraphs, that their orders to their engineer that they were to design these firearms as ‘people hunters’. Is that your claim?

In regards to the semi-auto handguns, here is a picture of an Olympic athlete doing a sport called ‘rapid fire shooting’. The object is to knock down a certain number of metal targets in the shortest period of time.

The semi-auto pistols are generally custom built to the shooters specification. It would seem, if your are correct, that the athletes instructions to the gunsmiths are not to create precision target pistols, but to build ‘people hunters’

Is that really what you are claiming?

 

[HarryStotle]

Ok, let’s do the math:

60% of guns related to imprisonment for youth offenses with guns are traced back to authorized dealers:

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) issued a comprehensive report in 2000 detailing firearms trafficking investigations involving more than 84,000 diverted firearms, finding that federally licensed firearms dealers were associated with the largest number of trafficked guns – over 40,000 – and concluded that the dealers’ “access to large numbers of firearms makes them a particular threat to public safety when they fail to comply with the law.”3

Oh, I don’t know if the ATF is lying or not, but they certainly haven’t said much about, say, Benghazi, Fast and Furious, the tens or hundreds of thousands of tons of weaponry that has been delivered to Al Quaeda linked rebels in Syria, or Obama’s drone war in the Middle East.

I had to smile when I read “access to large numbers of firearms makes them a particular threat to public safety when they fail to comply with the law.”

Speaking of “diverted firearms…”

Full Coverage: ATF's Fast and Furious scandal

A federal operation dubbed Fast and Furious allowed weapons from the U.S. to pass into the hands of suspected gun smugglers so the arms could be traced to the higher echelons of Mexican drug cartels.

www.latimes.com

And these are the people and entities to whom you want to relinquish control of guns?

Giving THEM “access to large numbers of firearms” when THEY too have failed comply with the law or made up executive orders on the spot is a desirable thing?

Give your head a shake.

 

[HarryStotle]

Progressives don’t want to control your life. Quite the opposite.

I have never laughed so hard in my entire life.

They even now want to control the pronouns that come out of my mouth. I think it is a $250 000 fine in New York, and a jail sentence in California.

California has Made Misgendering Someone with Improper Pronouns a Jailable Offense

redstate.com

 

[kesa82]

Gun control ?

My guess it would teach mean people who want to kill people about the "virtues " of bombs and IED’s.
The technology is now about 500 years old , you can glean the necessary info from some middle school textbooks. And the odds that you will kill more people , and evade being identified longer, increase significantly, because you don’t have to be present to kill.

The 2nd Amendment ?

You have a right to defend yourself …UNLESS you are a convicted felon , or mentally ill …as if these were significant distinctions … and then you are fair game for any clown who wants to kill you.

As for convicted felons ; with 20,000 + federal laws , not counting state and local laws , that this is a significant distinction is a pretty fairy-tale.

As for the mentally ill , that might be a significant distinction if the definition of mentally ill was a strict one , but, obviously , that is the rare exception, not the rule.
The definition of mentally ill is so broad that to say that one is mentally ill is to say as much , or as little, as to say one is blue eyed or brown eyed , and in plain English mentally ill means someone you don’t like.

I have met die hard communists, and I have met Americans , and I do not get the impression that either gives a fig for my rights.

 

[Vonsalza]

The modern semi-automatic rifle actions and handguns were designed as people-hunters. They’re obviously very good at that job.

Interesting premise.
Here are two modern semi-automatic rifles
The Marlin 60
And it’s cousin the Ruger 10/22

The premise endures. Both the Marlin 60 and Ruger 10/22’s actions are a blow-back driven semi-auto. The first successful implementation of this action was the Mannlicher rifles. These were infantry rifles. “People-hunters”, as it were.

The semi-auto pistols are generally custom built to the shooters specification. It would seem, if your are correct, that the athletes instructions to the gunsmiths are not to create precision target pistols, but to build ‘people hunters’

Is that really what you are claiming?

Not at all. You either misunderstood the claim or this is your attempt to widen the goalposts to fit a canned response that you’re familiar with.

The claim was that "The modern semi-automatic rifle actions and handguns were designed as people-hunters.

As it pertains to pistols, literally everyone of them operate on an action that came into being for warcraft. Most use the action pioneered by the Mauser brothers(and stolen by Browning). Browning developed for the US army and the Mausers developed for the German army.

You might have a very weak argument about breach and bolt guns not being developed primarily for military purposes (even though you’d still be wrong), but every main semi-auto action that exists was initially developed for a military application.

There are no major innovations in these types of firearms done for civilian purposes, I’m afraid. Just minor redesigns that are just substantial enough to avoid patent lawsuits where they still apply (as most of this tech is now over 100 years old).

 

[starshiptrooper]

Why does it matter? Sometimes it is necessary to kill.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Progressives don’t want to control your life. Quite the opposite.

I have never laughed so hard in my entire life.

They even now want to control the pronouns that come out of my mouth. I think it is a $250 000 fine in New York, and a jail sentence in California.

California has Made Misgendering Someone with Improper Pronouns a Jailable Offense – RedState

I’m pretty progressive when it comes to most things, but not this.

The dangers of using broad labels, I reckon.

Oh, BTW

No, NYC Did Not Just Introduce A $250,000 Fine For Any Incorrect Use Of Gender Pronouns

---

On the flip side, plenty of progressives might argue that conservatives are trying to control the lives of some gay folks who just want to call themselves “married”.

Per Vonnegut, “So it goes”.