Do you support the second amendment?

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jcrichton.

You said to JonNC . . . .
Jon, could you reason out this math: Indiana gun sales say “XYZ” per year, Indiana citizenry owner ship of guns “XYZ-xy missing guns” so no import of violence from Indiana?
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But once you even tacitly admit these are from lawbreakers (“missing guns”), WHY would you think MORE LAWS are going to be helpful?

Especially when those “more laws” in effect are pointed at Law abiding citizens?

And also especially when those “more laws” continue to chip away at our Constitutional protections for law abiding citizens?
 
Is there is misunderstanding here?

If Indiana traffics guns and hundreds if not thousands end up (as you have argued previously) in the hands of those from other states that use them to commit violence in their states, what does it matter if the number is “x” or “xy?”

There are still guns missing that end up out of Indiana!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
It is a compilation of protections not a single-issue protection that keeps the government away from tyranny.

Maran atha!

Angel
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Of course. The entire constitution is supposed to be intentional in limiting the general government. Article 1, section 8.
The B of R intended to identify specific inherent human and civil rights that are hands off to government, along with a general protection of rights not enumerated (9th a) and maintaining the balance between federal and state (10th a). In part is the 2nd, for numerous reasons, including the militia, as is enumerated in the prefatory clause
 
I thought that you were making a point about the disparity between the “elite” and the poor, were you not?:
Cathoholic said:
my point concerned elites in power and how they will pull out all the stops for protection for . . . .themselves (yet not afford the common law abiding people the same consideration).
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…unless you only mean the elites that own guns and pay body guards and are part of the US military.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Your calling citizens insisting on their rights being preserved “romanticized militia” is not a good reason to blow off ANY part of the Constitution.

As I said. THEIR constitutional rights, do not depend upon YOUR opinions as to their response and the success of their response or not.
 
jcrichton said:
Is there is misunderstanding here?

If Indiana traffics guns and hundreds if not thousands end up (as you have argued previously) in the hands of those from other states that use them to commit violence in their states, what does it matter if the number is “x” or “xy?”

There are still guns missing that end up out of Indiana!

Maran atha!

Angel
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You tell me (link to a source). Are there straw purchasers? Probably.
But the fact is the violence is in the progressive Mecca of Chicago, not Indiana.
 
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uh… “xyz” = total number of guns running through Indiana;
…“xyz-xy” equals the number of guns that you have argued that are being found in states where law mandates impede the proliferation of open sales of guns–unless you are going back to that “miniature black holes that make guns disappear from the production lines and distribution channels and reappear in the hands of criminals who have yet to master the technology of teleportation.”

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
uh… “xyz” = total number of guns running through Indiana;
…“xyz-xy” equals the number of guns that you have argued that are being found in states where law mandates impede the proliferation of open sales of guns–unless you are going back to that “miniature black holes that make guns disappear from the production lines and distribution channels and reappear in the hands of criminals who have yet to master the technology of teleportation.”

Maran atha!

Angel
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Give your source. Name names, other than Gun Runner Eric
 
I don’t mean to be insensitive… but why are gun enthusiasts so thick:

If guns are being manufactured in far more numbers than they are being bought and retained by law abiding gun enthusiasts, are the restrictions on guns truly working?

Then they get hooked on that romanticized “defenders” of the US’s Constitution.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
But it is wrong to pretend that the 2nd’s militia is what keeps tyranny at bay!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jcrichton to Cathoholic:

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I thought that you were making a point about the disparity between the “elite” and the poor, were you not?:
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I am making a point about “power brokers”.

Power brokers may or may not be wealthy.

Think Democrat attorney John Edwards and his illicit use of “bunny money” or think of high school wrestling coach turned politician Republican Denny Hastert who is later able to pay out over a million dollars in “hush money”.

And these are the guys who got caught.

No. I am not focusing on mere income per se.

I am focusing on the ability to control other people’s lives. I am focusing on “power”.

Yes unfortunately, many of these power brokers use their power to enrich themselves too, but my focus was upon their power (not necessarily their money–although they always seem to get that in the package too).
 
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Correct!

It depends upon the government to uphold the whole body of the Constitution–no amount of militia fires burning bright is going to deter a tyrannical agent from cancelling all rights and liberties… no matter how many guns and ammos are stockpiled or passed!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jon, reread your posts–more than once you’ve attempted to make a point that “criminals” use guns in zero policy regions. That states as Indiana have no such restrictions.

So unless you believe that ETs are arming criminals, those guns are getting from the point of great distribution to the point of no distribution.

I can’t explain to you why egg white remains clear while egg yoke is yellow.

You cannot abandon your argument when it points to your error.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton:
It depends upon the government to uphold the whole body of the Constitution–no amount of militia fires burning bright is going to deter a tyrannical agent from cancelling all rights and liberties… no matter how many guns and ammos are stockpiled or passed!
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But you cannot blow off the Constitution because of this. ANY part of it.

And it doesn’t just depend on “the Government”.

It depends upon all of us. The Governmental bodies AND the citizenry.

And if you DO blow-off the Constitution in a manner that you are suggesting here, the whole Constitution begins to crumble.

Pope John Paul II the Great saw this connection of citizens rights and societies falling associated with abortion. (It is in Evangelion Vitae)
 
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We were talking to the “tyranny” issue.

But you are correct, as I also have pointed out, the citizenry must engage in governance.

This is where the power lies.

Both government and citizenry must engage the Balance of Power. Yet, if citizens rely on the 2nd to force a government to remain constitutional, the folly is oh so great.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jcrichton:
If guns are being manufactured in far more numbers than they are being bought and retained by law abiding gun enthusiasts, are the restrictions on guns truly working?
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So your answer is MORE RESTRICTIONS (which effect law abiding citizens).

This is a blame the victim mentality in a sense and I am not accepting it.

It also chips away at the Constitution. I will have no part of that either.

Where have you complained about the Government setting up arms deals jcrichton? Where have you complained about the Obama administration sending US arms to Syrian rebels or Libyan agitators for example?

Why are you only upset when the arms are in the hands of good, honest, law abiding U.S. citizens. Or make laws and regulations that further hinder our good citizens?

This seems like a low ball view of humanity to me.
 
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jcrichton:

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Both government and citizenry must engage the Balance of Power. Yet, if citizens rely on the 2nd to force a government to remain constitutional, the folly is oh so great.
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I don’t see the gun rights folks as reducing this down to an “either/or” scenario (balance of political power AND having weaponry).

I DO see them as wanting our founding principles preserved.

And if YOU think any of those founding principles are now irrelevant, you have the freedom to start a do-away-with-the-Second-Amendment change to the Constitution.

But what YOU or even Congressman and women, Senators, Judges, and Presidents do NOT have the POWER to do . . . . is ignore the Constitution and make “laws” that usurp the Constitution.

.

And we have all seen such antics. We’ve all seen Presidents putting themselves over the Constitution, judges legislating from the bench, etc. etc.
 
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