Do you support the second amendment?

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Cathoholic said:
LeafbyNiggle:
If the so called “gun-grabbers” were to agree to having gun safety training classes in high school, would you agree to making such training a requirement for owning a gun? Now we will see if you are using the training issue as yet another dishonest excuse to get kids to oppose gun control.
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Now you are imagining things I did not say. Actually my proposal was just hypothetical, to expose the insincerity of the proposal from your side that kids be educated into gun safety in school. The response of your side shows that it was not a sincere proposal, but likewise a hypothetical one - just like mine - placed there just to get a response. So now that I have found out what I wanted to find out, I withdraw my proposal entirely.
Law-abiding gun owners are ALREADY held to education standards in a default to manner by the courts.
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You mean after a kid has been killed by an unsecured weapon? I think that is too late.
If a law abiding citizen arms herself (of himself), she needs to be educated already.
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We agree on that. What we disagree on is whether they need to demonstrate that education before an incident occurs.
Good honest citizens are already taking their own responsibility seriously.
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Most of them are. Some are not. The ones who take safety seriously should not mind proving that fact.
But this is education of THEIR choice.
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That is the point on which we disagree.
You don’t tie Constitutional Rights to “certificates” as LeafbyNiggle seems to be suggesting here.
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…which is exactly why I propose repealing the 2nd amendment so that it will no longer be a Constitutional right.
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Some people grew up with guns being a part of their life. They tend to decry the misuse of firearms, and consider the idea of harsh restrictions on their ownership ridiculous. Some people did not grow up with guns, and often see them as weapons made simply for murder and crime. It used to be in this country we understood those differences, and lived with those differences. But like so much else, it has become a political issue that feeds the coffers of polarizing organizations that are not interested in discussion, but in raising money to advance their particular agenda.
 
MonteRCMS said:
The 9/11 hijackers demonstrated and proved otherwise.
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Nice joke, but still not true. They did not know how to take off, how to land, or many other things that we would expect any licensed pilot to do. And that is what we were talking about - what we as a society expect of pilots and gun owner. Sure, anyone can shoot a gun, in the same way that the 9/11 hijackers flew planes. But that does not mean we should let them.
 
starshiptrooper said:
Your understanding of the Constitution is limited. Felons may have their rights limited because they have been tried and convicted.
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Sure. Due process of law.
The rest of us are under the protection of the 2nd Amendment and 9th Amendment. So your gun buyback will not fly.
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Which can also be created by due process of law.

You don’t have an argument here.
 
Good, feel free to buy them with your own money and make it a truly voluntary buyback all around.
 
starshiptrooper said:
Good, feel free to buy them with your own money and make it a truly voluntary buyback all around.
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The benefit is societal. Ergo the cost is societal.

Perhaps pay for it with the revenue from the permits? I think that’s an EXCELLENT idea.
 
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SuperLuigi said:
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Vonsalza:
At least a man wielding a knife has to be able to over-power you with it, physically. A gun has no such requirement. A Polish granny holding a blunderbuss could drop the khanate’s mightiest warrior, which the mongols learned when they expanded to Europe.
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That’s the whole point to having #2A—equalize the playing field.
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Sure. And we also limit what arms the #2A allows in an effort to limit the damage of the random, destructive vector.
 
We still have the 2nd Amendment and the 9th Amendment. If those fail us, it will be time to emulate the glorious deeds of our Founding Fathers.

I will never pay for a permit.
 
LeafbyNiggle:
You mean after a kid has been killed by an unsecured weapon? I think that is too late.
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Yet another reflection of the “low-ball view” of the good guy.

I specifically said:

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Good honest citizens are already taking their own responsibility seriously.
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But there will always be “bad guys”.

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LeafbyNiggle NEEDS to constantly conflate the good guys with the bad guys.

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This is a reflection of the view of humanity LeafbyNiggle has.
 
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Vonsalza:
I’m not. I support voluntary buy-backs. So the rest of your post is moot.
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The “rest of my post” is NOT moot.

Even if voluntary, Government NEVER OWNED the firearms in the first place.

Thus there can be no buy “BACK”.

I stand by what I said.
 
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Cathoholic said:
LeafbyNiggle:
You mean after a kid has been killed by an unsecured weapon? I think that is too late.
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I understand that. But until an accident like I described happens, how can you tell the difference between the good guys and the irresponsible ones? That is what safety certification does. It determines who knows how to be a good honest citizen.
This is a reflection of the view of humanity LeafbyNiggle has.
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Once again (sigh!) please discuss the issues and not each other.
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Vonsalza said:
The benefit is societal.
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this is the point of discussion. is gun control beneficial or a detriment.

no the data doesn’t prove it completely one way or the other.

how many lives are saved with guns removed versus how many lives are saved because a gun was available.

both sides have their studies claiming their agenda. there are even studies of the studies…
 
LeafByNiggle said:
how can you tell the difference between the good guys and the irresponsible ones? That is what safety certification does. It determines who knows how to be a good honest citizen.
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a certificate or training in no way makes an irresponsible person responsible. just because you know what to do doesn’t mean you will do it. common sense tells you to not leave a loaded gun around kids. yet we read about it all to often
 
upant said:
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LeafByNiggle:
how can you tell the difference between the good guys and the irresponsible ones? That is what safety certification does. It determines who knows how to be a good honest citizen.
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a certificate or training in no way makes an irresponsible person responsible. just because you know what to do doesn’t mean you will do it. common sense tells you to not leave a loaded gun around kids. yet we read about it all to often
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We are not looking for iron-clad guarantees. It is enough if the certification raises the overall awareness and knowledge about safety issues. And it can do that. Just look at what pilot certification has done to the general aviation accident rate.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
We are not looking for iron-clad guarantees. It is enough if the certification raises the overall awareness and knowledge about safety issues. And it can do that. Just look at what pilot certification has done to the general aviation accident rate.
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Can we start with certifying the gun ownership by criminals?
 
LeafByNiggle said:
We are not looking for iron-clad guarantees. It is enough if the certification raises the overall awareness and knowledge about safety issues
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you just keep moving the bar

again this is the issue in a nut shell, i say ok mandatory training in school for all gun owners and non-gun owners and you come back with well i want re-training every so many years and now…
its certification.

i can have training without having to be re-trained later and i can have training without a pilot like certification which requires a review every 2 years

this is why you can’t give an inch
 
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