Do you support union of Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

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Hesychios said:
That was a rhetorical device. I am sure he doesn’t believe that himself but it is true that when Western Catholics expect Orthodox to join them in one church while the Western church still teaches errors that Orthodox are being asked to accept errors, as if it doesn’t matter. Most Western Catholics have a hard time grasping that.
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I see what you’re saying, and yes I think you’re explanation is better than mine (that he was just playing some joke).
Hesychios said:
It would be just like insisting the RC merge with the Lutheran churches, without expecting the Lutherans to change their beliefs. Is that a compromise RC are willing to make for the sake of unity?
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But Lutheranism isn’t one of the “Two One True Churches”. (See my earlier comment
Peter_J said:
This isn’t really a response to your post, but I just want say that I like Fr. Robert Hart’s term for Orthodoxy and Catholicism: “the Two One True Churches”.
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)
 
Peter_J said:
But Lutheranism isn’t one of the “Two One True Churches”
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This is why the EO also rejected the reformation as did the Catholic Church.

Which I suppose just to clarify another point bought up about “conversion”. This simply doesn’t apply to the EO and I take offense to it and am Catholic. Not that you bought this up either Peter J That just creates feelings for no good reason IMHO.

Peace
 
GaryTaylor said:
Originally Posted by Peter J
I have given this some thought over the years, and I believe that if I were a cradle Orthodox, I probably would not swim the Tiber. Fortunately, being a cradle Catholic, I’ve never had to decide – though, of course, that means I am faced with the question of whether to swim the Bosphorus.
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I choose to stay in the Roman Communion. It’s not a learned behavior.
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I am not using a rhetorical device. Although at CAF it would be a lively rhetoric! The terms convert or repent imply a turning away. The essence of the One church is Jesus Christ Our Lord. Who wants to turn away? He is Our Unity. It does not require a dis-associative disorder to appreciate your brothers position.

peace
 
Peter_J said:
I choose to stay in the Roman Communion. It’s not a learned behavior.
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And to that I say, Amen. However, if you were raised in the Catholic Church it did start as a learned behavior which you followed in Blind Faith probly do to family which is a Blessing. Certainly at some point your beliefs then became confirmed by educating yourself in this regard? No?

My point being this same belief system is existing in the EO. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume. Thus their convictions are just as strong as yours or mine. In your case your conviction or mine confirmed itself. I have to assume this same situation occurs with the EO.
 
Peter_J said:
But Lutheranism isn’t one of the “Two One True Churches”. (See my earlier comment)
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My point does not depend on whether there are “Two One True Churches” or “Three One True Churches” or “Four One True Churches”. It doesn’t matter.

For arguments sake, let us say Lutheranism stands in relation to the RC in the same way that the RC stands in relation to Holy Orthodoxy. Are Roman Catholics willing to thereby compromise their faith for the sake of unity with Lutherans?

Does unity of ecclesiastical organization trump unity of faith? This is what Orthodox are being asked to do by Roman Catholics.

Are Roman Catholics willing to do the same and allow Lutheranism within the big tent for the sake of unity? Why or why not?

Orthodox are being asked to accept the RC the way they are with no changes. Would the RC accept the Lutherans the way they are with no changes? Would Lutherans accept the Presbyterians the way they are with no changes?

What does ‘Christian unity’ really mean? How are we defining the term ‘unity’ for our discussions here?

Kum Ba Yah
 
hazcompat said:
I am not using a rhetorical device. Although at CAF it would be a lively rhetoric! The terms convert or repent imply a turning away. The essence of the One church is Jesus Christ Our Lord. Who wants to turn away? He is Our Unity. It does not require a dis-associative disorder to appreciate your brothers position.

peace
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Schism doesn’t imply converstion. Which you could read in the CCC or Pope Benedict in this regard. To share in communion is the desired goal. Other than that I agree, in fact St Paul summed it up well in 1-Corinthians 1:12-foward. 👍
 
Hesychios said:
For arguments sake, let us say Lutheranism stands in relation to the RC in the same way that the RC stands in relation to Holy Orthodoxy. Are Roman Catholics willing to thereby compromise their faith for the sake of unity with Lutherans?
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But, since Catholics have approved Orthodox as having the same faith, Orthodox statements to the contrary are irrelevant. Conversely, since Catholics have *not *approved Lutherans as having the same faith, Lutheran statements to the contrary are irrelevant. (Granted, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.)
 
Peter_J said:
But, since Catholics have approved Orthodox as having the same faith, Orthodox statements to the contrary are irrelevant. Conversely, since Catholics have *not *approved Lutherans as having the same faith, Lutheran statements to the contrary are irrelevant. (Granted, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.)
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That is one of the most arrogant, condescending statements I’ve ever read. The Orthodox don’t know their own beliefs? Their beliefs are irrelevant when they don’t align with those of Rome? With this mentality, there is no hope whatsoever of reconciliation. You can’t tell someone else that his beliefs are irrelevant and then expect him to continue in a conversation.
 
Peter_J said:
But, since Catholics have approved Orthodox as having the same faith, Orthodox statements to the contrary are irrelevant. Conversely, since Catholics have *not *approved Lutherans as having the same faith, Lutheran statements to the contrary are irrelevant. (Granted, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.)
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We want nothing to do with reunion on such terms.
 
Peter_J said:
But, since Catholics have approved Orthodox as having the same faith, Orthodox statements to the contrary are irrelevant. Conversely, since Catholics have *not *approved Lutherans as having the same faith, Lutheran statements to the contrary are irrelevant. (Granted, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.)
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But Orthodox have not approved any one else of having the same faith. What the Papacy might think about it is irrelevant as far as the Orthodox are concerned. I will say that the Papacy could hardly do any different, since condemning Orthodox belief would be like condemning it’s own origins.

To some Anglicans (by no means all, or even most), what the Papacy thinks about Anglican orders and teachings is important to them, this is why they pursue the “Dutch Touch” in consecrating their bishops. You will not find a parallel in Orthodoxy. Orthodox might be flattered that the Papacy thinks so highly of Orthodox teachings and orders, but Orthodox do not need anyone outside to tell us this, we already know it.

The problem is that we don’t really know that about Roman Catholic orders, and don’t need to know. We know that RC teachings have problems and nothing else matters. We could personally assume they are fine or we can assume not, no matter, we cannot break bread together until our beliefs match.

Unity of any sort is entirely dependent upon unity of faith. It comes first. From Orthodox perspective the RC would actually have to change it’s teaching before it could be recognized as Orthodox. It would have to deny some of it’s own dogmatic pronouncements. I see this as highly unlikely, but not until after that point can real Eucharistic unity be acheived. Even then there is not going to be one human organization, the RC would be considered one of many Orthodox churches.

Until then. we will just have to be friends.

We would expect the same from the Lutheran World Federation or the LCMS. If they change their theology they could potentially be admitted into the communion as one of several Orthodox churches. If they don’t change, we will have to try to be friends and continue to cooperate on another level.
 
Hesychios said:
But Orthodox have not approved any one else of having the same faith. What the Papacy might think about it is irrelevant as far as the Orthodox are concerned. I will say that the Papacy could hardly do any different, since condemning Orthodox belief would be like condemning it’s own origins.

To some Anglicans (by no means all, or even most), what the Papacy thinks about Anglican orders and teachings is important to them, this is why they pursue the “Dutch Touch” in consecrating their bishops. You will not find a parallel in Orthodoxy. Orthodox might be flattered that the Papacy thinks so highly of Orthodox teachings and orders, but Orthodox do not need anyone outside to tell us this, we already know it.

The problem is that we don’t really know that about Roman Catholic orders, and don’t need to know. We know that RC teachings have problems and nothing else matters. We could personally assume they are fine or we can assume not, no matter, we cannot break bread together until our beliefs match.

Unity of any sort is entirely dependent upon unity of faith. It comes first. From Orthodox perspective the RC would actually have to change it’s teaching before it could be recognized as Orthodox. It would have to deny some of it’s own dogmatic pronouncements. I see this as highly unlikely, but not until after that point can real Eucharistic unity be acheived. Even then there is not going to be one human organization, the RC would be considered one of many Orthodox churches.

Until then. we will just have to be friends.

We would expect the same from the Lutheran World Federation or the LCMS. If they change their theology they could potentially be admitted into the communion as one of several Orthodox churches. If they don’t change, we will have to try to be friends and continue to cooperate on another level.
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This is as it should be. Our discourse is not intellectual. It is Spiritual. Why would anyone leave a conversation with God to have a conversation with men? I’ll get my robe and ring. My name is in the book of life. I’ll get my white stone with my new name. Why should I be concerned about another?

peace
 
John 21 : 20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them – the one who had leant back close to his chest at the supper and had said to him, ‘Lord, who is it that will betray you?’ 21 Seeing him, Peter said to Jesus, ‘What about him, Lord?’

22 Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to stay behind till I come, what does it matter to you? You are to follow me.’

peace
 
Hesychios said:
Originally Posted by Peter J
But, since Catholics have approved Orthodox as having the same faith, Orthodox statements to the contrary are irrelevant. Conversely, since Catholics have not approved Lutherans as having the same faith, Lutheran statements to the contrary are irrelevant. (Granted, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.)
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Well as I said, you might hear something different on a Lutheran forum or an Orthodox forum.

As for the rest of what you’re saying, I’ll give it some thought (I’m about to go out the door). But my gut reaction is that you won’t find too many people around here who are open to what you’re saying.
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RyanBlack said:
That is one of the most arrogant, condescending statements I’ve ever read. The Orthodox don’t know their own beliefs? Their beliefs are irrelevant when they don’t align with those of Rome? With this mentality, there is no hope whatsoever of reconciliation. You can’t tell someone else that his beliefs are irrelevant and then expect him to continue in a conversation.
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Peter is a good man, he is extremely calm and rational and he is brilliant at these discussions. I don’t take offense because he is advocating a position for arguments sake. It is provocative but not intended as a belittlement, it is there to make us think and respond.

I do take the argument seriously, there are people out there who actually have the opinion and a response is in order.
 
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