S
Seamus_L
Guest
I wish Rome would drop the overly ecumenical approach and just face the reality that we don’t believe the same things as the Orthodox, and face the fact that no amount of attempted compromise will change that.
- Status
N
Nine_Two
Guest
Then why do you want discourse with anyone?
T
toosan1967
Guest
WOW! I’ve spent most of this evening following this thread from the beginning. The only thing I can say is, I hope more progress toward (I’m almost afraid to use the term - ) unification has been made in official circles than has been made in this thread over the past year and a half or so!! Ya’ll have been really mean to one another in more than a few places. Guess we’ll just have to keep praying that Jesus’ prayer that we all may be one will actually happen some day. Have to admit, though; I’ve enjoyed the discussions. And the fact that the ‘Threadmaster’ hasn’t shut the whole thing down is extremely hopeful! Learned a lot too! May God Bless Us All.
H
hazcompat
Guest
N
Nine_Two
Guest
But you just said you need have no concern for others. Christ has concern for all man.
M
Marocchino
Guest
Yes, I support and pray for the union of all Christians but under the terms set by Pius XI.
“The union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it.” (Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)
“The union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it.” (Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)
P
Peter_J
Guest
Thanks!
:banghead:
:takethat:
Hmm … sadly, saying “Two One True Churches” only gets us so far (though it does roll off the tongue pretty nicely).
BTW, if anyone read “The Odd Couple” and isn’t sick of that blog yet, I would also recommend A worn out gotcha
P
Peter_J
Guest
We had a little “ecumenism of return” thread last summer – and I do mean little, but it might interest you nevertheless.
H
Hesychios
Guest
With all due respect to the Supreme Pontiff, this statement greatly oversimplifies (and thereby distorts) the reality of the situation and does not address the fact that we are in this predicament because of the actions of Roman Catholic Cardinals behaving in an outrageous manner after their boss the Pope had deceased. One of those men became a Pope later and he was in a position to repent and fix this mess but he didn’t even try.
The quote you give is actually something any Orthodox could say, because in in our understanding Holy Orthodoxy is the One True Church and the bishops of Rome and their followers have unhappily left it by their own unilateral actions.
But it is far more difficult to repair now, after 1000 years of continued doctrinal development. It will require patience and understanding on the part of everyone to repair the damage of so many lifetimes, and that is probably the best reason for threads like this.
H
hazcompat
Guest
Jesus Christ Is Our Fathers Simple Plan for Salvation Since Before Time Began.But you just said you need have no concern for others. Christ has concern for all man.
peace
C
Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
Care to explain that statement?
P
Peter_J
Guest
He means “Father’s”.
H
hazcompat
Guest
C
Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
I know. But I still don’t get the statement. But does that mean that sin and our fall was part of God’s plan since before time began?
J
John_of_Patmos
Guest
No. I don’t think God planned for us to fall.
“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.” - 2 Timothy 1:8-12
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
“Today a free people have the choice to determine their spiritual fate.” Ukraine has spoken loudly on this matter.
“His Holiness Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyiv Patriarchate, leader of over 30 million worldwide, has been working tirelessly to bring the faithful together. Within Ukraine there will be unity and harmony some day due to the leadership of the chief shepherd, Patriarch Filaret who is strengthening a national spiritual identity.” Risu.org
(Pius XI, Mortalium Animos) Quote…
…But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from:shrug:
Is not the very issue Pope Pius XI speaks on here relevant?
The Kyivan Patriarchate is needed for the existence of the independent self-governed church in Ukraine. And, according to Patriarch Filaret, the Moscow Patriarchate can now feel it: “Without us, they would be have been deprived of their independence long ago,” Patriarch Filaret
We need to get back to Christ, and His message, not political agendas, which promote decay in worldwide Christianity. In fact I believe Pope Benedict made a similiar comment last night in Mexico though in relation to a different situation…
Greek-catholic Patriarch: Orthodox connivance with Stalin undermines our relations
by Nina Achmatova
The Major Archbishop of Kiev, Sviatoslav Shevchuk, invites Russian Orthodox to recognize their complicity in the persecution of Catholics in the USSR. For the Moscow Patriarchate the Uniate situation is the biggest obstacle to the meeting between Kirill and Pope.
Moscow (AsiaNews) - The non-admission of the Russian Orthodox Churches’ complicity with the Soviet persecution of Greek-Catholics in Ukraine is undermining relations between the two Churches. The warning was voiced by the Archbishop of Kiev, Sviatoslav Shevchuk, head of the Greek-catholic Church. Meanwhile, the Patriarchate of Moscow has again confirmed that precisely the Greek-Catholic situation - Eastern Rite, but in communion with the Pope - is the biggest hurdle for the expected meeting between Patriarch Kirill and Benedict XVI.
“The ability to apologize shows a lively Christian conscience, which is a precondition for the so-called healing of memories,” said Archbishop Shevchuk in an interview with the Ukrainian newspaper Den (Day). “The Russian Orthodox Church was used by Stalin’s regime for the compulsory settlement of our church - he added - the fact there has been no symbolic reconciliation between us is really a serious obstacle to the development of mutual relations.”
In 1946, two years after the occupation of Ukraine by the Red Army, with the council of Lviv orchestrated by Soviet power, the Greek-Catholic Church (Uniate) was outlawed, because it was considered - as opposed to orthodoxy - hostile to Moscow and to directly ‘dependent’ on the Vatican. Priests and bishops were sent to jail or labor camps, from where many did not return. More than 2,270 parishes were closed or transferred, and their property passed to the Orthodox. Patriarch Shevchuk has also reiterated that the discussion on the “pseudo-Synod of Lviv” is still “at a standstill.” ‘03/22/2012’
Complex it is. Yet here is where the meeting between Pope Benedict and Patriarch Kirill stalls.
“His Holiness Patriarch Filaret of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyiv Patriarchate, leader of over 30 million worldwide, has been working tirelessly to bring the faithful together. Within Ukraine there will be unity and harmony some day due to the leadership of the chief shepherd, Patriarch Filaret who is strengthening a national spiritual identity.” Risu.org
(Pius XI, Mortalium Animos) Quote…
…But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from:shrug:
Is not the very issue Pope Pius XI speaks on here relevant?
The Kyivan Patriarchate is needed for the existence of the independent self-governed church in Ukraine. And, according to Patriarch Filaret, the Moscow Patriarchate can now feel it: “Without us, they would be have been deprived of their independence long ago,” Patriarch Filaret
We need to get back to Christ, and His message, not political agendas, which promote decay in worldwide Christianity. In fact I believe Pope Benedict made a similiar comment last night in Mexico though in relation to a different situation…
Greek-catholic Patriarch: Orthodox connivance with Stalin undermines our relations
by Nina Achmatova
The Major Archbishop of Kiev, Sviatoslav Shevchuk, invites Russian Orthodox to recognize their complicity in the persecution of Catholics in the USSR. For the Moscow Patriarchate the Uniate situation is the biggest obstacle to the meeting between Kirill and Pope.
Moscow (AsiaNews) - The non-admission of the Russian Orthodox Churches’ complicity with the Soviet persecution of Greek-Catholics in Ukraine is undermining relations between the two Churches. The warning was voiced by the Archbishop of Kiev, Sviatoslav Shevchuk, head of the Greek-catholic Church. Meanwhile, the Patriarchate of Moscow has again confirmed that precisely the Greek-Catholic situation - Eastern Rite, but in communion with the Pope - is the biggest hurdle for the expected meeting between Patriarch Kirill and Benedict XVI.
“The ability to apologize shows a lively Christian conscience, which is a precondition for the so-called healing of memories,” said Archbishop Shevchuk in an interview with the Ukrainian newspaper Den (Day). “The Russian Orthodox Church was used by Stalin’s regime for the compulsory settlement of our church - he added - the fact there has been no symbolic reconciliation between us is really a serious obstacle to the development of mutual relations.”
In 1946, two years after the occupation of Ukraine by the Red Army, with the council of Lviv orchestrated by Soviet power, the Greek-Catholic Church (Uniate) was outlawed, because it was considered - as opposed to orthodoxy - hostile to Moscow and to directly ‘dependent’ on the Vatican. Priests and bishops were sent to jail or labor camps, from where many did not return. More than 2,270 parishes were closed or transferred, and their property passed to the Orthodox. Patriarch Shevchuk has also reiterated that the discussion on the “pseudo-Synod of Lviv” is still “at a standstill.” ‘03/22/2012’
Complex it is. Yet here is where the meeting between Pope Benedict and Patriarch Kirill stalls.
K
karaleigh
Guest
No, I don’t support the idea of unification of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Orthodox is much more into education and study. Money is scarce. To have to divide among the many churches would hamper the efforts of the scholars(Orthodox) who help to aid the Vatican in the world-wide concourse on the activities of Christians.
C
Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
What did you say?No, I don’t support the idea of unification of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Orthodox is much more into education and study. Money is scarce. To have to divide among the many churches would hamper the efforts of the scholars(Orthodox) who help to aid the Vatican in the world-wide concourse on the activities of Christians.
H
hazcompat
Guest
CCC
1066 In the Symbol of the faith the Church confesses the mystery of the Holy Trinity and of the plan of God’s “good pleasure” for all creation: the Father accomplishes the “mystery of his will” by giving his beloved Son and his Holy Spirit for the salvation of the world and for the glory of his name.1
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2.htm#1066
Ephesians 1:
The Father’s Plan of Salvation. 3* Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,c who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,* 4as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him.d In love 5he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,e 6for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.f
Fulfillment through Christ. 7In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his graceg 8that he lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight,h 9he has made known to us the mystery* of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in himi 10as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth.j
Inheritance through the Spirit. 11In him we were also chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the One who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,k 12so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped* in Christ. 13In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed* with the promised holy Spirit,l 14which is the first installment* of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.m
II. Unity of the Church in Christ
The Church as Christ’s Body.* 15Therefore, I, too, hearing of your faith in the Lord Jesus and of your love* for all the holy ones,n 16do not cease giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,o 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him.p 18May the eyes of [your] hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones,q 19and what is the surpassing greatness of his power for us who believe, in accord with the exercise of his great might,r 20which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,s 21far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come.t 22And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,u 23which is his body,* the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.v
usccb.org/bible/ephesians/ephesians1.htm
peace
1066 In the Symbol of the faith the Church confesses the mystery of the Holy Trinity and of the plan of God’s “good pleasure” for all creation: the Father accomplishes the “mystery of his will” by giving his beloved Son and his Holy Spirit for the salvation of the world and for the glory of his name.1
scborromeo.org/ccc/p2.htm#1066
Ephesians 1:
The Father’s Plan of Salvation. 3* Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,c who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,* 4as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him.d In love 5he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,e 6for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.f
Fulfillment through Christ. 7In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his graceg 8that he lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight,h 9he has made known to us the mystery* of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in himi 10as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth.j
Inheritance through the Spirit. 11In him we were also chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the One who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,k 12so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped* in Christ. 13In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed* with the promised holy Spirit,l 14which is the first installment* of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.m
II. Unity of the Church in Christ
The Church as Christ’s Body.* 15Therefore, I, too, hearing of your faith in the Lord Jesus and of your love* for all the holy ones,n 16do not cease giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,o 17that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation resulting in knowledge of him.p 18May the eyes of [your] hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones,q 19and what is the surpassing greatness of his power for us who believe, in accord with the exercise of his great might,r 20which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens,s 21far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come.t 22And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,u 23which is his body,* the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.v
usccb.org/bible/ephesians/ephesians1.htm
peace
H
hazcompat
Guest
Look to the Liturgy, where time and no time kiss. Look to the Eucharist. Look to Christ enthroned in your heart and the Holy Spirit indwelling. Bring everything into His Light, just as it is, and wait.
peace
peace
- Status