Do you think Free Masonry is dangerous to the church?

[mosher]

seabird3579:

BJRumph,

Your discourses are far too long to take point by point, but suffice it to say that I believe your “emotional” attachment to the Masons has clouded your view on the issue.

I will say that you make grand assumptions about other posters without specifics, and you seem to be trying to say that it’s “okay” to be both Mason and Catholic.

One moment you say it shouldn’t be, the next moment you try to justify it. You also seem to be dealing with a little bit of a superiority complex and you dismiss those who would even dare consider challenging your “superior” view of the Masons and how they operate.

We do know that when anyone comes under a certain kind of mind control through various groups, not just the Masons, it takes a great deal of time and “deprogramming” to see clearly.

I think you are well on the way, but you would do better to “defer” to the Church’s teachings and not be so antagonistic towards those that are trying to warn you about serious spiritual dangers.

Again, it is impossible to have a rational discussion when this type of absurdity abounds. For this reason I do not post for posters such as this but rather for those who actually have a sense of reality in their lives as opposed to needing some fanciful gnostic conspiracy or kabal to justify their belief in the evil one. Life is not a Lord of the Rings book.

BJRumph:

I am a little curious as to Mosher’s answer regarding the “INRI” question, though he does not need answer me here (if at all).

I am sure that you are referring to the Rose Croix degree of the Scottish Rite and in that Pikes use of INRI. My response is justified by my understanding that Pike was not supplanting but rather while recognizing the reality of the phrase he adds another esoteric meaning to it. So, when asked do masons give any other significant meaning to the INRI I have to say no because to say yes is not correct. First it must be nuanced to a particular degree in the Scottish Rite and then it must be further distinguished that it is not a meaning that supplants the true meaning but rather is used as an implement of teachings.

 

[mosher]

Gelassenheit:

I see where you’re coming from more clearly now, and I understand your position. Of course, the problem with the nature of the subject is that it is no accident or fault of non-Masons that they may be “uninformed” on some of the issues, as that inherent with the secrecy. And so basically when someone such as yourself enters into dialogue with non-Masons, you claim a position of special authority within argument that is neither falsifiable nor verifiable for others, and “debate” as such, goes out the window. But I do see how your background would come in handy for helping Catholics who are Masons, so point taken.

True, because of the literal hundreds of years of speculations and sensational accounts of things and as BJRumph states about the modern phenomenon of the internet having a deluge of false information it is hard to sift through the information. However, there are good sources out there. Nearly everything in freemasonry is not secret. Even the degrees have been made public through various venues. The problem is that because of the simplicity of it and the non-uber-spooky aspect of it causes those who believe in Illuminati Conspiracy Theory silliness can’t believe it and resort to calling such things a diversion or smoke and mirrors so that people do not see the real agenda. I could not imagine living my life this way it would be just the same as sustaining my faith through apparitions and private revelation as opposed to the ordinariness of holiness and the true revelation that the Church safeguards.

 

[seabird3579]

mosher:

True, because of the literal hundreds of years of speculations and sensational accounts of things and as BJRumph states about the modern phenomenon of the internet having a deluge of false information it is hard to sift through the information. However, there are good sources out there. Nearly everything in freemasonry is not secret. Even the degrees have been made public through various venues. The problem is that because of the simplicity of it and the non-uber-spooky aspect of it causes those who believe in Illuminati Conspiracy Theory silliness can’t believe it and resort to calling such things a diversion or smoke and mirrors so that people do not see the real agenda. I could not imagine living my life this way it would be just the same as sustaining my faith through apparitions and private revelation as opposed to the ordinariness of holiness and the true revelation that the Church safeguards.

I find it difficult to continue a conversation with someone more devoted to the Masons than to the Church.

Are you agast, and taken aback? Go back and read your responses to those only repeating what the Church has taught for well over one hundred years regarding the Masons.

In the end, will it really be worth it to have “defended” the Masons, and defied your own Church?

 

[seabird3579]

Satan is a Master at Deception.

That is his craft. That is his trade.

If he can get one soul to believe his conjectures rather than the Truth (and we know that the Church teaches Truth) then he has succeeded.

You have obviously bought into the “modern day thought” that those who are aware of the Illuminati conspiracy are “silly.”

You’re making his work too easy…do some more research yourself.

Even going to a “Catholic” university does not make you safe these days…you have to go beyond what some professors teach at Catholic colleges. Not all espouse faithfulness to Rome.

Check it out. Then report back.

 

[mosher]

seabird3579:

I find it difficult to continue a conversation with someone more devoted to the Masons than to the Church.

Are you agast, and taken aback? Go back and read your responses to those only repeating what the Church has taught for well over one hundred years regarding the Masons.

In the end, will it really be worth it to have “defended” the Masons, and defied your own Church?

I have in no place defended freemasonry but rather defended truth. I refuse to allow silly claims to get in the way of the true discussion that must happen in truth. If we truly love as we claim then we must desire the conversion of all and in this case the only way that such a conversion can happen is if we approach the issue with honesty and charity and not fanciful stories of absurdities. In the end I am sure that in examining things from a position of truth that the Lord will be pleased.

 

[chrisb]

In a word… YES.

Nuff Said.

 

[mosher]

seabird3579:

Satan is a Master at Deception.

That is his craft. That is his trade.

If he can get one soul to believe his conjectures rather than the Truth (and we know that the Church teaches Truth) then he has succeeded.

You have obviously bought into the “modern day thought” that those who are aware of the Illuminati conspiracy are “silly.”

You’re making his work too easy…do some more research yourself.

Even going to a “Catholic” university does not make you safe these days…you have to go beyond what some professors teach at Catholic colleges. Not all espouse faithfulness to Rome.

Check it out. Then report back.

I refuse to act in hubris so I will not detail my qualifications but I can assure you that my mind has been formed in strict orthodoxy.

 

[seabird3579]

There is literally nothing you could “inform” me about when it comes to freemasonry that would change my mind about it. I will never see it as just the boy scouts – no matter how you spin, no matter how deep we delve into it, it won’t happen.

As one poster already suggested, going deeper into evil in the hopes of “understanding” it better is ridiculous.

Freemasonry has set its sights against Christ and His Church, and that’s enough for me to know.

End of subject.

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

There is literally nothing you could “inform” me about when it comes to freemasonry that would change my mind about it. I will never see it as just the boy scouts – no matter how you spin, no matter how deep we delve into it, it won’t happen.

As one poster already suggested, going deeper into evil in the hopes of “understanding” it better is ridiculous.

Freemasonry has set its sights against Christ and His Church, and that’s enough for me to know.

End of subject.

First, I agree w/ Seabird that free masonry is in conflict with the Church in many ways. For most of us, this is all we need to know. My only direct experience was the funeral of my aunt’s father-in-law where the burial rite was definitely pagan and caused the hair on my back to stand up (I was younger so there was less hair then but I could still feel it )

However, my deceased father and his forebears were Episcopals and all were active Masons (I have no idea what level they reached as it was not a subject my Catholic mother allowed to be discussed in the house while I was growing up).

Seabird, this is an apologetic forum. To be interesting, it usually requires at least thread poster to be providing information on the other side. Otherwise, it becomes a discussion based on innuendo, half facts, and rumors. Mosher tried to give information without defending masonry based on his experience and knowledge which was more first-hand from a Catholic source than I’d ever seen without getting into the direct theological issues it raises.

My dad was not a particularly deep man or thinker. He enjoyed the comraderie (probably a component was it allowed him to indulge in his alcoholism-different issue and thread), would have seen no theological implications in the rituals but just “rules of being in the club”, and was very proud of the social good they did in the community.

As a young boy, I couldn’t understand my mom’s opposition. At the time, I figured it was just her knowledge Dad would come home drunk. And I didn’t like that she was denigrating the good I saw this group do in town and using religion as a basis. Her ranting against the rituals didn’t make sense to me. I was a boy who had entered into blood pacts w/ my friends to be loyal etc (we lived 20 miles from an Indian reservation) and if you didn’t “join blood”, you couldn’t get in the treehouse, was a Boy Scout, etc., and my mom didn’t condemn those rituals. At the time, I wasn’t being fair to my mom.

But, when I went to the funeral, I over-reacted and said “mom was right.” But that wasn’t fair to my Dad. In such a situation, he wouldn’t take a Masonic rite any more seriously than if the requirement was that they swim across the local lake for admission. This discussion and Mosher’s contributions allowed me to properly see both the rightness of my mom and my dad. Thanks Mosher.

 

[DaMaMaXiMuS]

On the History Channel they had a episode on “Secret Societies” and one of the people they interviewed, David Icke, claims that 51 out of the 57 signers of the constitution were known masons.

Anyone saw that episode? I don’t know how true this is, but doesn’t sound impossible.

 

[mosher]

DaMaMaXiMuS:

On the History Channel they had a episode on “Secret Societies” and one of the people they interviewed, David Icke, claims that 51 out of the 57 signers of the constitution were known masons.

Anyone saw that episode? I don’t know how true this is, but doesn’t sound impossible.

Yes that is true and 14 presidents aswell. Also, Napolian and also the Duke of Wellington who stopped him. Alot of people throughout history can be verified to be masons and masonic lore claims a lot of others but I stick to the people that can be verified.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

Seabird, this is an apologetic forum. To be interesting, it usually requires at least thread poster to be providing information on the other side. Otherwise, it becomes a discussion based on innuendo, half facts, and rumors. Mosher tried to give information without defending masonry based on his experience and knowledge which was more first-hand from a Catholic source than I’d ever seen without getting into the direct theological issues it raises.

I posted #34 and #35 as a direct quote from a devout Catholic who has researched the subject thoroughly. It seems that mosher just disagrees with the quote, and he is free to do so. My only comment was that it wasn’t wise given the vast amount of information against freemasonry, not to mention a number of popes writing encyclicals.

From a human standpoint, my grandmother on my father’s side was herself deeply involved with masonry. She was the president of her Elks Lodge for twenty years and did a lot of social good. She also was the best grandmother anyone could ask for — however, she was spiritually blind and very anti-Catholic. She kept her anti-Catholicism to herself unless someone provoked her. As much as I loved my grandmother, she was wrong and the Church was right.

Ironically, my grandmother’s mother was once a Catholic back in Germany before they came to America. She was raised in an orphanage, married young and wanted a divorce. The Church would not recognize her divorce so she left the Church and became anti-Catholic. She re-married into a masonic family. So you see I do have “some” experience with the Masons.

In my heart of hearts and deep in my spirit, I know what the Church teaches is right – and to answer the original poster – yes, freemasonry can be a threat to the Church, we must be vigilant in prayer and devoted to Christ above all else.

 

[Maureen_Fiore]

Is the Free Masonry a secret society. If it is considered that then any Catholic who is affilitated with this society is committing a grave and mortal sin. This I believe is a sin against the first Commandment. Correct me if I am wrong. I don’t know too much about Masonry, I only hear somethings about it from my boss who is a Mason and feels that they only do good things. He relates it to the St. Jude Foundation and the founder, Danny Thomas.

 

[mosher]

Maureen Fiore:

Is the Free Masonry a secret society. If it is considered that then any Catholic who is affilitated with this society is committing a grave and mortal sin. This I believe is a sin against the first Commandment. Correct me if I am wrong. I don’t know too much about Masonry, I only hear somethings about it from my boss who is a Mason and feels that they only do good things. He relates it to the St. Jude Foundation and the founder, Danny Thomas.

The Church does not bar its faithful from being members of secret societies but rather se bars Her faithful from membership in subversive societies. I will cite the relavent canon is necessary.