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Returning_Home
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Sorry, didn’t mean to be repetitive.
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Eliza10
Guest
Oh, go ahead and post your finueral potatos recipe here for everyone to see! I’m interested.Yep. and anybody who wants the recipe, send me a PM and I’ll give it to you! That stuff is…well, it’s very, very good, very very rich and very, very fattening.
Perfect, in other words.
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dianaiad
Guest
…and this constant criticism of us because we are 'too busy’is NOT judgmental?
It is true that there was this story about Mary and Martha, and Jesus telling Martha not to be concerned that Mary was choosing to sit quietly and listen to Him. However…remember, it is Martha who actually DID something when Lazarus died. She had such deep abiding faith in Him that even though Lazarus was dead, she knew that Jesus could fix it: that He could raise Lazarus to life. She went, and she did…and she asked. Mary, on the other hand, sat in the house and wept, and when Martha brought her out of the house, all SHE could say was something along the lines of “if you were here, he wouldn’t have died.” She blamed Jesus for not being there, and Martha–just did something about it.
As women, sometimes we need to be Mary, and sometimes we need to be Martha. There is nothing at all wrong with that!
…and I think you are judging your friend.
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dianaiad
Guest
It is considerably off topic, Eliza; I’m using a funny version of it that I found on the internet.(don’t worry, it’s exactly the same recipe I use!) However, if you don’t mind, I’ll send it to you via PM.
Diana
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Is it the same “busy people” who are interested in doing things in their faith communities? I ask, because I think it is in some parishes, and also some wards.
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Eliza10
Guest
I was judging the activities and structure of LDS. We are supposed to use our minds to judge things around us.
But you, in this one instance, were judging the motives of the heart of those who think there is too much busyness at LDS - - they must “feel guilty about their own inactivity”. Thats different. Only God can judge the heart. Thats why I called you on it. I realize you wrote it in haste, but I just felt I should say something.
No, I really don’t think I am. I know my freind doesnt take it that way, as I have told her my concern, and it comes from loving my friend. She’s wise, and she knows its better not to worry about things she can’t change (like what people think!).
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Eliza10
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From Dianaiad’s private message recipe (which she’ll send anyone):
“…I was going to give you my mother’s recipe, but hers calls for Tater Tots, and that’s just…blasphemy”
P.S. Yup it looks really fattening, but easy to make, and crowd pleasing, tummy-filling comfort food. Funeral Potatoes is a perfect name for them!
“…I was going to give you my mother’s recipe, but hers calls for Tater Tots, and that’s just…blasphemy”
P.S. Yup it looks really fattening, but easy to make, and crowd pleasing, tummy-filling comfort food. Funeral Potatoes is a perfect name for them!
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tundramom
Guest
On this, the most amazing subject of potatoes, I completely agree with dianiad.
Say NO to tater tots.
Steph
a Minnesotan who never ever ever makes or consumes “tater tot hot dish”.
Say NO to tater tots.
Steph
a Minnesotan who never ever ever makes or consumes “tater tot hot dish”.
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dianaiad
Guest
yes…but if you can’t see the judgmental and condemning nature of this criticism of LDS activity, then you haven’t been listening to yourself. We ARE supposed to judge, and make decisions for ourselves: that is, 'this is for me, and that is good, and this is not…" but since none of us can see into the hearts and minds of others, then making statements regarding what you think THEY should do or how they should live their lives is, well…judgmental in a way that Jesus wouldn’t much approve of, I don’t think.
For instance, I have an aquaintance (not a ‘friend,’ she’s too busy!) who volunteers at the local Catholic school, organizes five Catholic women’s retreats a year, goes to her local Catholic women’s prayer group every Wednesday, is a den mother for her local Catholic Cub Scouts group, and is very active in the Daughters of Isabella. She attends Mass three times a week.
Now if I were to look at her through the same lens you are using, I could say that she is spending too much time doing stuff in the church (all of the above is church organized and sponsered, and she was asked to do most of it by her priest…could YOU say ‘no’ to your priest if he asked you for help?) and think that she’s brainwashed, over whelmed and perhaps thinking more of what other people think of her, because she’s doing so much ‘obvious’ stuff.
However, I just think that she is deeply religious and excercising her faith the best way she knows how. She is happy, organized…and wouldn’t cut out a single thing from her
frenzied activity…nor should she. Bless her–and all the Catholics in her congregation also bless her, you can bet on that.
Indeed. Only God can judge the heart…of you, of me, or of the “friend” (in quotes because, frankly, I don’t think that real friends do to each other what you are doing to her here) you just called a brainwashed hypocrite 1, criticising the way she excercises HER faith to strangers behind her back.
In fact, you were looking down your nose at her, and at Latter-day Saints in general, because we ‘do’ more in our church than you think we should. The problem is, I was always under the impression that Catholicism, like Mormonism, was considerably more than a 'one day a week" thing. It’s a way of life, isn’t it?
Well, a way of life is only that–if you make it a part of your entire life.
Including the weekdays. All of them. Including the way we deal with each other.
- yes, you did just call her a hypocrite, Eliza…A hypocrite is someone who pretends to believe something s/he does not, or pretends to a faith in order to get the admiration of people, not the aprobation of God. Jesus had some very harsh words for people who did that sort of thing, and ‘hypocrite’ was one of the words He used for precisely the actions you just accused your friend of; being more concerned about what people think of her than she is of her faith.
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Murdock
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Eliza It is correct that callings are neither sought nor declined. However, Diana could have been clearer that much of what a Mormon does for the Church or for his or her ward family is not pursuant to a calling. Ward members are in need or the Church has some ad hoc task to be done. Elderly people and also the meetinghouse need a bit of snow shoveling. A family needs help moving into a new home. A widow with impaired vision needs a ride to the doctor. A hospitalized person needs a blessing from the Melchizedek priesthood. The missionaries want to invite an investigator to a Mormon home for dinner. A lonely person needs companionship. Whatever. Life in a Mormon ward includes meeting a diverse stream of human and institutional needs. Usually, at least when time permits, volunteers are sought. On Sunday, sign up sheets are passed around the priesthood quorum meetings and the Relief Society meeting. In my ward, each week three families volunteer to spend Saturday cleaning the meetinghouse. Every few months, it is my ward’s turn to send volunteers to work in the Bishop’s Warehouse to serve those in need or to do gardening and lawn maintenance at the temple. All of this DOES take a lot of time but I would not describe my life in the ward as “frenzied”. In any case, we are taught to love one another and the Church. (As are Catholics I assume.) Moreover, any one of us, at any time, could find ourselves in need of the service of others. Most importantly, for purposes of this post, none of this activity is pursuant to a calling and, usually, it is voluntary. It sounds like your LDS friend might be over doing it, but that is not because of her callings.
Murdock
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Eliza10
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I suppose you could say I am judging LDS activity when I wonder if its too frenzied a lifestyle. I think that is normal judging, using our brains like we should.
But “condemned”? Where did I condemn LDS? Where did this judgement come from??
You are accusing me of things I haven’t done. I didn’t make statements of what I think they should do or how they should live their lives.
I don’t think you have a grasp of my lens.
What? You think I am not a real friend to her? You have NO idea, and are not able to make such a judgement. Its kind of crazy, actually.
Looking down my nose?? At my friend? Where do you get this stuff?
Now you are calling me names??
Hypocrite?
Is anyone else here reading this? it doesnt make sense to me. I am re-reading and re-reading it, trying to get it. How am I a hypocrite? Someone let me know, please.
My friend has no complaint about what kind of a friend I am to her. You are battling windmills here, Dianaiad. I have certainly not “accused” my friend of anything, and I have NEVER thought she is more concerned about what people think of her than her faith. You are reading things in what I wrote that just aren’t there.
This conversation is taking a crazy turn. Maybe we should veer back to the topic.
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Eliza10
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Really, I think I should start a new thead: Do Mormons have religious defensiveness, sometimes seeing insult where there is none?
I don’t mean to be insulting here! However, at times my friend has surprised me, when I’ve boldly asked her things like, 'You can’t do that on the Sabbath?" or, “You can’t drink tea either?” (I’d thought it was just coffee). But we communicate well, and we straighten things out.
With the first statement, I was so surprised to find later she thought I was insulting her or her religion, or supposing she should do things differently, when I just was genuinely surprised and wanted clarification. The latter question came up at a later time, whenI offered her some iced green tea, and I saw the hestatiion after my surprised question “You don’t drink tea, either?!?” (I was surprised, becasue green tea is healthy), and afraid that it was the beginnings of the look of, “I’ve been insulted” on her face, and was able to clear it up right away – I was not judging her belief, just asking what her beleif was, and I completely respect her for following the rules of her faith. Obedience is a virtue. Jesus honors what we do for Him!
But as I have gotten to know my friend I do assume a defensiveness and look out for that - that my statements or questions just might be taken as intended insults when they are not. I never assumed this was a culturally Mormon defensiveness; I thought it was my friend’s own senstivities. However, after this dialougue with Dianaiad, I am wondering otherwise!
I don’t mean to be insulting here! However, at times my friend has surprised me, when I’ve boldly asked her things like, 'You can’t do that on the Sabbath?" or, “You can’t drink tea either?” (I’d thought it was just coffee). But we communicate well, and we straighten things out.
With the first statement, I was so surprised to find later she thought I was insulting her or her religion, or supposing she should do things differently, when I just was genuinely surprised and wanted clarification. The latter question came up at a later time, whenI offered her some iced green tea, and I saw the hestatiion after my surprised question “You don’t drink tea, either?!?” (I was surprised, becasue green tea is healthy), and afraid that it was the beginnings of the look of, “I’ve been insulted” on her face, and was able to clear it up right away – I was not judging her belief, just asking what her beleif was, and I completely respect her for following the rules of her faith. Obedience is a virtue. Jesus honors what we do for Him!
But as I have gotten to know my friend I do assume a defensiveness and look out for that - that my statements or questions just might be taken as intended insults when they are not. I never assumed this was a culturally Mormon defensiveness; I thought it was my friend’s own senstivities. However, after this dialougue with Dianaiad, I am wondering otherwise!
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CatholicGuyNY
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If you read it again, you’ll see that she didn’t call you a hypocrite. She said that you called “her” (your friend in the OP) a hypocrite.
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Eliza10
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Oh, Okay! Thanks so much for clarifying that. I see it now. Thanks!
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Eliza10
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I don’t think my friend is a hypocrite at all. I admire her faith. I think it is misplaced - that is, believing the teachings of Smith. However, she thinks they are true and she is true to what she believes. I admire that. Particularly since, from my view, she persues her faith because she is persuing God. I don’t think she is a hypocrite by any stretch of the imagination. That she occasionally allows concern for what others think of her vex her does* not* imply that she worries about others more than her faith.
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MelanieAnne
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I thought I’d add something in here just for clarity.
Whenever we say someone is being “judgmental”, we are, by definition, being judgmental ourselves. That’s just a fact and Diana is correct on that point. (I’m not going to get into the rest of the back and forth in this thread, I’m just remarking on that small part of it.)
We often will categorize such determinations one way when we agree with the determination and another way when we don’t. “Judgmental” is usually applied as a pejorative, to something that we don’t agree with. But both are judgments. Hence, any determination that another person is being “judgmental” should generally be avoided since, by definition, the person making that determination is doing exactly the same thing.
I was first exposed to the absolute truthfulness of this dynamic in a program hosted by Mother Angelica on EWTN. A guest was remarking about a similar situation, where she had been giving a seminar on Faith and Morals, and one of the people attending the seminar came up to her during a break and suggested that, in speaking about Faith and Morals in absolute terms she was being “judgmental”. Her immediate reply was “then why are you judging me?” Something to think about!
Whenever we say someone is being “judgmental”, we are, by definition, being judgmental ourselves. That’s just a fact and Diana is correct on that point. (I’m not going to get into the rest of the back and forth in this thread, I’m just remarking on that small part of it.)
We often will categorize such determinations one way when we agree with the determination and another way when we don’t. “Judgmental” is usually applied as a pejorative, to something that we don’t agree with. But both are judgments. Hence, any determination that another person is being “judgmental” should generally be avoided since, by definition, the person making that determination is doing exactly the same thing.
I was first exposed to the absolute truthfulness of this dynamic in a program hosted by Mother Angelica on EWTN. A guest was remarking about a similar situation, where she had been giving a seminar on Faith and Morals, and one of the people attending the seminar came up to her during a break and suggested that, in speaking about Faith and Morals in absolute terms she was being “judgmental”. Her immediate reply was “then why are you judging me?” Something to think about!
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Ahimsa
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I’ve noticed that among some Catholics, too. In both cases, the defensiveness probably is a result of a history of being doggedly attacked/criticized by non-Mormons or Protestants, as the case may be.
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dianaiad
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Eliza, the very title of the thread is a condemnation of Mormonism.
Think about it:
What if I started a thread entitled:
“Do you think that Catholics revere statues to the point of idol worship?”
(disclaimer…the above question is one I would never seriously ask, because I know better.)
The question itself poisons the well, and projects the desired answer to the question asked…your question was, in fact, not a real question at all, but a rhetorical one. What you were going for was agreement with you that “Mormonism is a religion of frenzied activity,” with a negative connotation.
Eliza, you’ve been condemning the busy lifestyle of Mormons…and of your friend, from your very first post.
Oh, I believe that I see you very clearly.
You are using her as an example of someone who is being a “Martha” to your “Mary,” and you came right out and said that you think she does what she does because she thinks too much of what others think of her.
No, I told you that you called your friend a hypocrite…by saying that you think she does as she does because she is “too concerned with what others think of her”…(post #43) That is, after all, the definition of ‘hypocrite.’
Do you think she would thank you for using her here as you are…as an example of a brainwashed hypocritical cult member? Would you be really comfortable if she read this thread–and knew that she was the example you are using?
Actually, I am simply reading what you wrote. Period. It’s called exegesis.
You mean, where you are sweetly examining the frailties of your friend, and wondering (ever so politely) what it is about the Mormons that make them brainwashed zombies who do too much church work?
Please excuse me, but I have an uncontrollable urge to go mow someone’s lawn. There MUST be a widow in the ward with some weeds I can pull.
Oh. Wait. I’m a widow in the ward. I think I’ll go pull my own weeds. It’s nice to know, however, that because Mormons lead lives of such ‘frenzied activity,’ that if the weeding is too much for me, I can call my Home Teacher and there will be Boy Scouts or men from the Elder’s Quorum, or sisters from the Relief Society here to help. In the mean time, if I get a call because Sister M needs a ride to her doctor’s appointment, I’ll ramp up my 'frenzied activity" level and just—go get her.
SOMEONE, somewhere, needs a good dose of funeral potatos. I think I’ll go find out who, and deliver some.
Diana
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I know I’m a little beyond your ward boundaries since I’m in Huntington Beach, but if your uncontrollable urge towards yard work is not remedied by your assisting your neighbors, feel free to come and weed my vegetable garden! Sometimes I even give out zucchini as a reward!
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tundramom
Guest
I know I’m WAY out of your ward boundaries, but you could seriously use a trip to Minnesota. Just sayin’.
Steph
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