Do you think Mormonism (LDS) is basically a North American religion?

[Returning_Home]

It’s a far more common practice for white southerners of the time to hide identities, especially at night. Come to think of it, it still is.

Cite your source here.

You DO realize, don’t you, that Mormons have had a far better history with Native Americans than any other group, right? They actually liked us.

The early church, however, wasn’t very successful in converting many so as to make them "white and delightsome,’ was it?

LJ, you are spouting some pretty standard anti-Mormon rhetoric here. Fun, but not really useful.

It funny how what’s considered ‘anti-Mormon’ is never actually refuted with any real facts, only suppositions and fictional works. Perhaps the church should weigh in on these issues instead of letting their flunkies deal with them.

 

[LongJourney]

Well,m sure, Diana, I will give the early Mormons that much credit. Very few of them believed in overt genocide, unlike a larger percentage of the general white population. On the other hand, once they realized that the Natives wouldn’t accept the BoM as their history, they turned nastier.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Mormonism IS a North American based religion…

No, it is a North American dangerous cult

 

[SirThomasMore]

Indeed, the inactivity rate for the CoJCoLDS is unacceptably high.

It’s better than yours, though.

for a minute, I thought I wasa teaching 4th grade again.

Diana, get a billion members and get back with us

 

[StevieD]

Remember, we were quite literally driven right out of the nation, and have the dubious honor of being the only religious group in US history to have had half the US armed services sent against us.

Well… yes but this might have had something something to do with the fact that the Mormons declared themselves not bound by the laws of man. Even the goods of their non-Mormon neighbours were regarded as God’s and therefore belonging to the Mormons during the time of the ‘persecution’.
I suppose Catholics in Utah might be persecuted if we took a similar line today.

 

[Eliza10]

When Smith wrote the BOM, polygamy was outlawed, unless ordered by God, which implies that it was already on his mind. A Freudian slip, perhaps. D&C 101 clearly denounced polygamy, allowing no room for it to be ordered by God at any point. That section ran from 1835 until 1876, at which point section 132 was added. The old section 101 was quietly dropped.

Since most of Smith’s plural wives were sealed to him in 1841-1843, he did so in opposition to the old section 101.

How’s that for a ‘reference?’

Sounds like a serious reference to me.

 

[Eliza10]

Eliza

I noticed, based upon a couple of threads that you have started recently, that you have an LDS friend and that you seem to have some curiosity about Mormonism. I get the impression, just an impression and I don’t mean to sound presumptuous, that you have gotten some of your information from websites that are critical of Mormonism. How about rounding out the picture?..

There is no quesion in my mind about the truth of Mormonism. Its founder is Joseph Smith, and I have looked only at facts of his life, no fiction: facts that come from Mormon sources, or unbiased historical sources. I know enough aobut Smith to know that other than being the living star of the religion he created, he was not a nice man; he was selfish and self-serving, he lied, and he was lustful,all they while saying he was receiving messages from God. God doesn’t use prophets like that. And there was no great apostasy. So along with the plethera of other ways to disprove LDS theology, the person of Smtih and the apostacy fable are enough for me to settle any questions about Mormon theology. My quesitons are more about the lifestyle, not the theology. The quesiton on this thread pertained to whether the practice of Mormonism was especially suited to our North Amercian culture.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Actually, the military was NOT sent against a religious group, but against The Territory of Utah which refused to abide by the laws it had sworn to obey.

 

[Eliza10]

Apples and oranges, Eliza. The women Joseph married made their own choices. .

So you say. However, Smith’s usual modus operendi was to tell his latest victim that “celestial marriage” to him was God’s command for her, and she had only 24 hours to agree to God’s command.

…It’s in YOUR history books, obviously. I would like to see the references to show that they are in OURS. …OK, I want references. In context.

You know my information om the wives of Joseph Smith is from www.wivesofjosephsmith.org. That website’s biography is 100% Mormon history books and Mormon documents. You can read the website and you can get the books from Deseret books if you think reading the actual words in the actual Mormon books will do anything for you.

 

[StevieD]

You DO realize, don’t you, that Mormons have had a far better history with Native Americans than any other group, right? They actually liked us.

Maybe that was because the Mormons manipulated them and used their grievances to incite them against the ‘gentiles’ and do their fighting for them. They certainly used that friendship in the Mountains Meadow Massacre when they tried to blame the natives for murder and rape committed by Mormons.

 

[Eliza10]

Maybe that was because the Mormons manipulated them and used their grievances to incite them against the ‘gentiles’ and do their fighting for them. They certainly used that friendship in the Mountains Meadow Massacre when they tried to blame the natives for murder and rape committed by Mormons.

Wow. This is some shocking history. However, seeing the man that Smith is, and the people that he would have had to surround himself with in order to reamin master, star and mainipulator of his people, such fruits would be expected.

 

[Murdock]

Eliza

My post was not intended to imply that the sources I was suggesting would cause you to believe that Mormonism is true or to cause you to abandon your view that Joseph was “not a nice man” as you put it politely and with what must have been some restraint on your part. If I gave an impression that was different than my intent, then I apologize for not having been clearer. However, there is more and better to Mormonism in general and to Joseph in particular than is reflected in your posts, including your post in response to me, and the website and the book that I suggested are good sources if you would like to know more about the religion and the person about whom you are posting.

More relevant to the specific point of this “North America” thread, you asked Diana for statistical information in response to her remark that most Mormons are not Americans. There are a little over 13.8 million Mormons worldwide of whom a little over 6 million live in the United States. Not quite 1.9 million Mormons live in Utah. I think that a majority of Mormons have been non-Americans for 15 years or so although my recollection of that date is not good.

Statistical information about the Church and its membership, from the Church, can be found at:

newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/statistical-information

First click on the continent of the country in which you are interested and then click on the country itself. Membership numbers as well as other statistics are given for each country. For the United States, statistics are given for each state (looks like a bad link for California).

I am pretty confident that, in numbers of Mormons, the top three countries outside of the United States are Mexico with nearly 1.2 million Mormons, Brazil with a little over 1.1 million Mormons, and the Philippines with a little over 630,000 Mormons.

According to a Pew Forum survey in 2008, about 1.7% of adults in the United States are Mormons. According to that survey, that is about the same as the percentage of Americans who are Jewish. I think (not sure) that the three countries with the highest percentages of Mormons in their populations, all Polynesian, are Tonga with over one-third, Samoa with over one-quarter, and Tahiti with over one-fifth. Some other countries, Chile for example, have significantly higher percentages of Mormons than the United States, but none approach the percentages in Polynesia. BTW: I have never been to Polynesia, but my image of it is not “frenzied activity.”

I think (not sure) that the countries with the highest percentage growth of Mormons are either all or mostly in Africa. However, they are starting with pretty small bases so big percentages do not mean big raw numbers. For example, Nigeria has only about 93,000 Mormons and Ghana not quite 42,000 Mormons. In terms of raw numbers of growth, the United States, Mexico and Brazil are still the top three. However, each year, at an increasing rate, the overall growth of the Church outside of the United States exceeds the United States growth of the Church. It is readily apparent that the Church’s membership will become predominantly Latin American, African and Asian.

I am not quite sure how all of this responds to your question about whether Mormonism is a North American religion. On the one hand, the membership of the Church has not been majority North American for quite some time and North Americans as a percentage of Mormons are less every day. The question of whether Mormonism conforms better to a “fast pace” found only in North America is a subjective one that I think only people from other parts of the world would be well-qualified to answer. However, apparently, based upon the statistical information, people from other cultures in other parts of the world are either faster-paced than we may think, or they are adaptable.

Murdock

 

[SirThomasMore]

If Religion is defined as worshipping the True God, is not a true religion, but a cult that uses many of the same words as you would find in the worship of the True God to fool people, but, under close inspection, worships made up gods and has an ever-changing doctrine.

 

[Returning_Home]

Well… yes but this might have had something something to do with the fact that the Mormons declared themselves not bound by the laws of man. Even the goods of their non-Mormon neighbours were regarded as God’s and therefore belonging to the Mormons during the time of the ‘persecution’.
I suppose Catholics in Utah might be persecuted if we took a similar line today.

Persecuted, no, it’s not legal and that’s where the Federal Government will step in. That said, I’ve heard numerous stories from people who have lived and worked in Utah and Idaho who have been discriminated against as far as employment and job eligibility goes. That’s preferential treatment and therefore illegal.

 

[StevieD]

Eliza

There are a little over 13.8 million Mormons worldwide of whom a little over 6 million live in the United States. Not quite 1.9 million Mormons live in Utah. I think that a majority of Mormons have been non-Americans for 15 years or so although my recollection of that date is not good.

Statistical information about the Church and its membership, from the Church, can be found at:

newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/statistical-information

The LDS own figures for membership are grossly overstated worldwide. In those countries where religion is stated in censuses, the figures published for self-identifying Mormons are always substantially less than the figure quoted by LDS official sources. The actual figures are frequently less than 50% of LDS figures. A Mormon statistician has stated that the worldwide active membership is currently about 5 million.

 

[Eliza10]

The LDS own figures for membership are grossly overstated worldwide. In those countries where religion is stated in censuses, the figures published for self-identifying Mormons are always substantially less than the figure quoted by LDS official sources. The actual figures are frequently less than 50% of LDS figures. A Mormon statistician has stated that the worldwide active membership is currently about 5 million.

Stats. You can do a lot with them.

I understand that people are encouraged to get the 6 lessons in a short time, sometimes even a week, and that Baptism is often within a week, and people are strongly encourged to get baptized before learning much of anything about the Mormon Church. A good chunk of those take it no further.

So maybe the inflated stats have to do with the people who got baptized after listening to the 6 lessons.

Five million world wide is not such a big deal. Millions visit Our Lady of Guadelupe on Dec.12th every year, many of them walking the last miles on their knees!

 

[PaulDupre]

Many of those listed on the membership rolls of the LDS church do not even know they are there.

When I was a Mormon missionary in Taiwan (1977 - 1979), I would be sent to a branch that claimed 150+ members, only to find that no one, not even the branch president, would show up for sacrament meeting. When we went to find the inactive members, we were surprised to find that most of them had no idea that they were members of the LDS church. Most of them (especially the young girls) remembered their “American friends” who had visited them. In fact, many of the young girls somehow had the idea that their American friend would send for them, take them to America and marry them.

They acknowledged that they had been taken to a place and immersed in water, but did not know why. They only knew that their American friends had asked them to do it and they had, as was expected, done the polite thing and complied with their guests’ wishes.

As we interviewed these “members” we soon learned that they knew little or nothing about Mormonism - its teachings or what the church expected from them. I have seen the same phenomenon in the Philippines, where I spend a significant amount of time each year.

Baseball baptisms, hamburger baptisms, basketball baptisms, young girls with crushes on the missionaries, and those just trying to be polite. These are the bulk of the 15 million “members” they claim worldwide.

 

[StevieD]

Stats. You can do a lot with them.

I understand that people are encouraged to get the 6 lessons in a short time, sometimes even a week, and that Baptism is often within a week, and people are strongly encourged to get baptized before learning much of anything about the Mormon Church. A good chunk of those take it no further.

So maybe the inflated stats have to do with the people who got baptized after listening to the 6 lessons.

Five million world wide is not such a big deal. Millions visit Our Lady of Guadelupe on Dec.12th every year, many of them walking the last miles on their knees!

PS The ‘church’ includes on its rolls all who are ‘living’ and baptised. But if they don’t hear from you, their records office will assume that you will live/have lived until you are 110 years old! (So a substantial number who are on the rolls are in fact dead).
I looked at the membership figures for the UK and also at the figures submitted as income to the Charity Commissioners for the same year. I worked out that if their membership figures were correct (after adjusting them to account for child members) then their tithing members were on average earning less than one third of the median income for the UK - it just doesn’t add up, unless (gasp) they are grossly overstating membership.
This is a minor sect trying to ‘talk up’ its importance.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

I don’t think that the discussion of numbers is that important, since people tend to make similar arguments against the 1 billion+ Catholics, activity level/Mass attendance, whether ex-Catholics are included, etc. Catholicism is true because of its doctrine, not because of the number of people that supposedly believe it.

 

[dianaiad]

PS The ‘church’ includes on its rolls all who are ‘living’ and baptised.

So do the Catholics. It is, after all, a reasonable assumption. It is also the reason that our ‘activity level’ is around 40 to 50%. On the other hand, the world wide CATHOLIC activity level ranges from 20 to 40%. American attendence, for Catholics, hovers at around 24 to 28%, evidently…if you go with the studies (such as that by Hadawy and Marler) that actually count heads at the meetings, rather than depend upon self reporting.

…whereas LDS attendance rates, by the head counters, range from 35 % to 56%. (shrug) make of that what you will.

… Catholicism counts their membership PRECISELY the same way we do. We count the baptized. However, since Mormons don’t get baptised until they are old enough to at least remember the occasion, Catholics can, and do, count as members people who have absolutely no clue that they ARE members. For instance, I have two good friends who were doing their genealogy and discovered that before their parents converted to the LDS church, they’d been baptized Catholic shortly after their births.

It came as quite a surprise to them to see that their records listed them as ‘Catholic,’ and that the Catholic church counted them as members–when they had been raised as LDS, baptized at eight, and spent their entire lives unaware of their Catholicism.

My point is…boy, am I tired of this old canard about membership rates. It’s a really dumb argument, especially when the criticism applies just as, if not more, accurately to Catholicism. There isn’t a religious system in the world that doesn’t have this issue—it’s certainly one that Catholics bemoan in their own parishes!

As well…and just as a final thought; what is that bit about 'straight the gate and narrow the way, and few there be that find it?"

Get over it.