Do you think priests should be allowed to marry?

[vocatio]

The priests’ bride is our Mother the Church. He stands in the perssona of Christ. So it’s not as an earlier poster suggested that this is wrongful union.

Study Scott Hahn’s covenant theology. He explains it quite well. There exists a pyramid of metaphors with regards to the marriage covenant throughout the Church. But this is not the real reason for priests not being married men. I’m always surprised at the responses with good intentins. But if we expect non-Catholics and Catholics to accept things the way they are they need to know the truth. Priest in the Catholic Church as in the Orhtodox Church are required to make a vow of Celibacy. That is that once their wives die they are to live out their life in full service to the Church.

 

[thirdn6]

uhh, Christ married the church, not its priests. That would be a homosexual union which would be unbiblical.

Capital letter “C”. Christ married the Church as in the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ! And you’ve separated yourself from it… very sad.

 

[stbruno]

Study Scott Hahn’s covenant theology. He explains it quite well. There exists a pyramid of metaphors with regards to the marriage covenant throughout the Church. But this is not the real reason for priests not being married men. I’m always surprised at the responses with good intentins. But if we expect non-Catholics and Catholics to accept things the way they are they need to know the truth. Priest in the Catholic Church as in the Orhtodox Church are required to make a vow of Celibacy. That is that once their wives die they are to live out their life in full service to the Church.

Priests of the Orthodox church and deacons of the Roman Catholic church when widowed remain celibate tonly on very rare occasions is there permission granted by the Vatican

 

[SIA]

Capital letter “C”. Christ married the Church as in the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ! And you’ve separated yourself from it… very sad.

gonna rant unprovokingly at me now huh?

 

[SIA]

The priests’ bride is our Mother the Church. He stands in the perssona of Christ. So it’s not as an earlier poster suggested that this is wrongful union.

Its all just playing with words now. By your own theology then, how can Mary be our mother and the Church be our mother and our biological mother all be our mother then? Not logical at all and certainly not Biblical.

 

[stbruno]

ourholyredeemer.btinternet.co.uk/motherchurch.html

. The Knowledge of God According to the Church
36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PB.HTM

It’s not my own terminology, it’s the terminology of our Catechism. Yes, Mary is our Mother as well. She’s our adoptive mother. Just as we are God’s adoptive sons and daughters. Works out quite well, I think.

 

[vocatio]

Priests of the Orthodox church and deacons of the Roman Catholic church when widowed remain celibate tonly on very rare occasions is there permission granted by the Vatican

Either I have a typo or you misread my post. I am a former seminarian. I know this better than most. But thank you for reading my post. I’m rooting out a misunderstanding that many cracle Catholics themselves do not understand. Many priests would have prefered to be married before becoming priests. But once they are ordained that chose no nonger exists without them being laicized for good. It’s a very bad situation to be in and I would rather die that to attempt marriage after being ordained. I’ve read that there are rare occasions for deacons or priests have very young children and they need a mother. But I don’t know how often this actually occurs or how its’ looked upon. I’m Latin, not Greek.

 

[distracted]

I wanted to offer some insights into your June 1 post.

I already know all that…

I am a cradle Catholic, now well-catechized… The fact that you seemed to have assumed that was not the case indicates something to me:

That maybe you think that only someone who is NOT well-catechized would hold to the belief that priests should (sometimes) be allowed to be married…

Priests are well-catechized… and some of them even think they should be allowed to be married…

And if you had read my other posts, i have maintained that i am not speaking of ALL priests… I think it should be a case by case thing…

I have also said that i would abide by the Church’s stand on this since the Church hierarchy must be presumed to know more about spriitual matters than i… esp the pope… I am just trying to understand something that i do not, totally, understand… I have been celibate for a long time and know how difficult it can be… to always fight off desires… and to always be 'alone" (though priests, i feel, are far less “alone” than i am)… I guess what i am saying is that i emphathize with priests who wnt to be married… that’s all…

Anyway, for those who didn’t know all that… well, now they do…

 

[PaulDupre]

Priests are well-catechized…

In my experience, this is often not the case.

 

[veritashunter]

Dear Distracted:

I realize that you have an understanding of this topic. But these short little blurbs tend to minimize the reality of what is being asked so that others (new to the topic) may not understand the greater issue.

You, as stated, faithfully defer to the teaching of the Church while others refuse to do so. A case in point is that of St. Jerome…the great translater and a Father of the Church.

He, on a personal level, disagreed with including the Deuterocanonical Books into the Canon of Sacred Scripture. But when the Church spoke on the subject and presented its reasoning he faithfully obeyed. And after the Church had formally ddeclared the doctrine he never once spoke of it again in any of his writings.

That seems to be the difference between now and then. People make challenges to certain doctrines (and many times for good reason), but when the Church responds (as it usually takes time to consider any subject) people now just keep on dissenting.

We all have a little Protestant in each of us, so to speak. But if we do not like this situation we can always join the a Byzantine or Eastern Rite that does permit married men to become priests (since priests and deacons can never marry regardless of Rite/Catholic or Orthodox once part of Holy Orders).

It isn’t like the Catholic Church has not left the option open in some sense. People are free to migrate into the Eastern Rites of the Church. Instead, people seem to ask that the Roman (particular) Church to change just to suit their wants and desires.

Again, this is much like Protestant thought…Me, Jesus, and the Bible…forgetting the intention of the author (the Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit). When it comes to human nature not a lot has changed in human history. There needs to be a change in the “ME, ME, ME” to a “WE, WE, WE” mentality.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter

 

[mercygate]

Its all just playing with words now. By your own theology then, how can Mary be our mother and the Church be our mother and our biological mother all be our mother then? Not logical at all and certainly not Biblical.

Is this really “not logical” to you?

Catholics (and most Christians) read the Bible on many levels. We read it both literally and spiritually. Further, Catholics (and most Christians) divide the spiritual sense into three subdivisions, the allegorical, moral, and anagogical. So in the anagogical sense, Mary (who is also the mother of the Church) and the Church ARE both our “mother.”

 

[mercygate]

Why not? Where does it say in the Bible that they should not?

I believe up-thread that this was well covered.

The answer to your first question “Why not?” [should priests marry] lies in the choice to follow Our Lord in his personal example of celibacy and in his recognition in Mt. 19:11-12: “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs **for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. **He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

In Mt. 22, Our Lord notes that “in the Resurrection” there is no marriage, so celibacy is a witness to the Resurrection.

The question is not MAY married men be priests – because, as everyone here has acknowledged, it IS possible. The question is SHOULD they. The Latin Church has deemed that she will ordaiin only those men who feel called to follow Our Lord’s example.

One might rather ask why most Christian denominations fail to acknowledge the consecrated single state as something for those few “to whom it is given” for the sake of the Kingdom.

 

[Stratiotes]

I’ve been reading an interesting book on this topic:
Celibacy in the Early Church by Stefan Heid
Anybody want to discuss it in the book discussion forum maybe?

 

[Ignatius]

I would like to know if you think priests should be allowed to marry and still stay in the priesthood…

Married men are allowed to become priests. A married man needs only join an order or Rite of the Catholic Church which has married priests.

 

[distracted]

. But these short little blurbs tend to minimize the reality of what is being asked so that others (new to the topic) may not understand the greater issue.

i don’t understand what you mean…

You, as stated, faithfully defer to the teaching of the Church while others refuse to do so.

That seems to be the difference between now and then. People make challenges to certain doctrines (and many times for good reason), but when the Church responds (as it usually takes time to consider any subject) people now just keep on dissenting.

i hope u don’t think i am dissenting… i am only questioning… something i do not understand… What i don’t understand is how the Church can expect a certain kind of man to remain celibate and in the priesthood… when he does not want to remain so, yet also does not want to leave his Church… The certain man i am referring to is: one who is not a virgin, one who is in love with someone and wants to spend his life with her and the woman is devoted to the Church as much as he is… if the priest just wanted to marry some flake that blew into town one day… that would be different… Anyway… as stated b4, i just feel for priests who have been celibate for a long time… and are fighting (constantly) their physical desires… I never knew how strong my sexuality was until i tried to subdue it… through being celibate for years and years!!! It has a ^%#@) mind of its own… :banghead: uch: :hypno: Even so, It probably IS the case that few priests fit this description… so i am in no way advocating that all priests should be married…

We all have a little Protestant in each of us,

we can always join the a Byzantine or Eastern Rite that does permit married men to become priests (since priests and deacons can never marry regardless of Rite/Catholic or Orthodox once part of Holy Orders).

true… but i doesn’t the Eastern O Church reject the pope?? Should a preist have to give up his belief in the papacy because he wants to get married?? I don’t know… like i said i am just tyringto understand… The Bible says it is better to marry than to burn… There are priests who get around this problem by having mistresses… and that, in a sense, is causing (as it were) people to sin… him and his woman… True, they should stay faithful to the teachings of Christ… and i am not trying to make excuses… but, well, all i am saying is that no one who has ever tried to be celibate for a long time can say they don’t understand how difficult it can be sometimes… Anyway…

When it comes to human nature not a lot has changed in human history. There needs to be a change in the “ME, ME, ME” to a “WE, WE, WE” mentality.

Yours in Christ

don’t really agree with this last thing… I think it should be changed to neither… it should be a Him Him mentality…

 

[distracted]

IVolodymyr probably doesn’t understand why you would post this in a non-Catholic forum on CAF. He’s right.

to be honest, i believe i was being rusehd when i posted it and wasn’t thinking it out very well. I agree that

Protestants …or clealy non-Catholics have no say so at all on this matter.

Well, i more or less agree…

Nothing is accomplished by continuing to whine about such a subject.

Totally do not agree wit this… I am learning an awful lot… and possibly changing my position (though i never really had a firm position in the 1st place… How can u when u are learning about something??

And by the way if I’ve read you post correctly, you out of all people are too close to this problem

too close to the problem?? How so…?

 

[vocatio]

to be honest, i believe i was being rusehd when i posted it and wasn’t thinking it out very well. I agree that Well, i more or less agree… Totally do not agree wit this… I am learning an awful lot… and possibly changing my position (though i never really had a firm position in the 1st place… How can u when u are learning about something?? too close to the problem?? How so…?

It’s too time consuming for me to break up your post like you did mine. I understand why you are asking questions. But whining is an entire different thing. It’s possible that you are struggling with understanding this issue. I’ve read much on the history of celibacy and weas there myself for quite a while since I initially went to the seminary and married only when I was 28 years old. You have to undestand something as a man. It wouldn’t matter if we had a concubine to “enjoy”, we would always be wanting the chick on the other side of the fence. Celibacy is for all of us in many ways. Men in relationships have to stop in the middle more often than realized. A truly transformed Christian understands that sex is not for recreation. It is a liturgical act in some ways. Not for sight seeig of course. But don’t you think that your guardian angel not to mention God’s presence. I can’t feel but holy somehow now when engaged in the life giving act that God has blessed us with.

The same thing holds true with priests. Sure, popular opinion would rather see priests marry and not suffer so much. I’m for this. But it just doesn’t happen the other way. That is ordination and then marriage. Read Genisis about how Moses separated himself form his wife and remained chaste or rather celibate for the remainder of his life. Mary and Joseph remained celibate even after Jesus birth. Joseph may have already had children from a previous wife. It’s probably why the scriptures speak of Jesus’ siblings. Thos siblings were probably much older. Maybe not even that much older.

I will be taking the same vow once I’m ordained to the diaconate. Sure you can say it’s not the same. But let me tell you something…it’s real. It gives me pause to wonder if I have what it takes and therefore become more cognitively aware of my obligation to serve God and the Church.

Let me put this another way. If someone constantly threw sexual enuendo in my face because they beleived we should be able to say watch adult movies and engage in pornagrphy freely, don’t you think that after a while if left unchecked it would begin to tempt people. In this case the persons being tempted are priests. Why put them through hell over your own wishes. I don’t appreciate it knowing what I will be promising. I knw far to many priests in the middle of their priesthood that dissented to the point of falling away completely. I was close to a Deacons family that failed to be even chaste in his marriage while going through diaconate formation in the 70’s. You are pushing a point that you really should step back and pray about now. Drop this thread and let it die for a while. If you have questions, I’d be more than happy to read and study more and send you or start a thread on the history of celibacy. There is a time to submit. If your not submitting your in dissent. Think and pray about it. You are in my prayers.

I think I may have misunderstood a previous post on anothe thread. I meant to PM you on the matter so as not to scandalize anyone. I think by your reactions that I was wrong. Sorry.

Actually, when I find it I will go ahead and PM you an email sent to me by an Orthodox priest. Ironically, I trusted the Orhtodox priest more than a Catholic priest. Now I understand what I was doing. Let me find it and maybe this will answer some hidden questions you just haven’t asked yet.

 

[distracted]

i tried to PM you and was not able to send it… I am having a hard time understanding some of what you are saying…

I understand why you are asking questions. But whining is an entire different thing.

are you saying i am whining?? Isn’t that just a degrading way of saying that i don’t completely understand the teachings on the subject: celibacy…?? Just wondering…

It’s possible that you are struggling with understanding this issue.

I don’t understand one or two aspects of it…

. You have to undestand something as a man. It wouldn’t matter if we had a concubine to “enjoy”, we would always be wanting the chick on the other side of the fence.

well, if that is t he way all men are… I am glad i don’t have one… I would like to think there are men out there who are not like that… and frankly, i feel that men like that should not be in the priesthood OR marriage… but then, maybe i am speaking of what should be “in a perfect world” & of course, that is not the case here on Earth…

. A truly transformed Christian understands that sex is not for recreation.

i hope u r not insinuating that that is the way i view sex??

It is a liturgical act in some ways.

this is more the way i see it…

But don’t you think that your guardian angel not to mention God’s presence.

i dont understand this…

If someone constantly threw sexual enuendo in my face because they beleived we should be able to say watch adult movies and engage in pornagrphy freely, don’t you think that after a while if left unchecked it would begin to tempt people.

I think something is a little (?) amiss here because i do not compare pornography w/ discussionss on celibacy… to me, they are miles apart…

in this case the persons being tempted are priests. Why put them through hell over your own wishes.

I am sorry but i don’t feel i am putting anyone thorugh Hell… In fact, i think these posts (by various people) may help seminarians to better think through what it means to take such serious vows…

I knw far to many priests in the middle of their priesthood that dissented to the point of falling away completely. I was close to a Deacons family that failed to be even chaste in his marriage while going through diaconate formation in the 70’s.

there are always going to be dissenters… apostates… Having a discussion on celibacy or not having one is not going to change that…

You are pushing a point that you really should step back and pray about now.

I don’t appreciate you acting like you are my father and i am a little child…

If your not submitting your in dissent.

not submitting to what??

 

[distracted]

Why not? Where does it say in the Bible that they should not?

Catholics, as you probably know, don’t go just by the Bible, though they do not ever contradict it (well, individual Catholics do, but not the church, officially)…

Anyway… priest celibacy is not a doctrine, much less a dogma…

 

[distracted]

Why would they want to - they are already married to Christ?

Peace,

Gail

i am mostly speaking of priests who have a strong desire to be physically intimate with a woman in holy matrimony, a woman who loves Christ as much as he does (or more??) and who understands what marriage means in the eyes of God…

Loving Christ does not exclude marriage… Being married doesn’t haveto take away from being close to Christ… In fact, for some people, marriage can bring one closer to Jesus… Again, i am talking about two people who love Jesus and are committed to serving Him… wanting to marry…

It should be case by case… I just have a problem with the Church hierarchy making a rule that ALL priests, regarldess of circumstances… should be celibate forever…

that is all i am saying… that is w hat i don’t understand… I know how hard it is to be celibate for many years… and if i have gotten to the point of … well, not liking it anymore (to say the least) i can understand othersfeeling the same way…