Do you think radical pro-abortionists are possessed?

[estesbob]

i have read books on demonic possession and the authors write about this condition called “perfect possession” wherein the person is so possessed that there is no longer any struggle whatsoever between good and evil going on in his/her soul/mind/heart. These are supposed to be basically immune to exorcism. In exorcisms of those who are NOT perfectly possessed, the devil has spoken about this and says that these people are “too far gone”. Yes, the devil lies, but during an exorcism, he is very often compelled to tell the truth, even against his strongest inclinations…

anyway, I feel that many pro-abortionists are perfectly possessed.

I mean: How could a person possibly condone something SO hideous unless that were the case??

Even so, i will continue to pray rosaries over pro-abortionists… can’t hurt…

No

 

[estesbob]

No.

 

[Joysong]

Wow! You’re really deep in thought tonight, Barb! Good questions. Let’s assume a person uses their free will to reject God and embrace evil and has no desire for salvation or eternal life with God. I just happened to read this morning from 2 Tim. 2:12, "If we disown him, he will also disown us *, but if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

This tells me from the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin, that Jesus will always seek us, for he cannot disown himself. “I have other sheep that are not of this fold, and them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice.” Jn. 10:16

I believe God importunes us to intercede for the lost and seeks such intercessors who are listening to His Spirit so we can cooperate with His saving grace. As you know, this was the mission of St. Therese who won a special grace for that infamous man who was going to the gallows. He repented at the very last minute due to her prayers for him. She had asked God for this initial grace of his conversion as a sign that He would use her efforts henceforth to obtain similar graces for others.

This is only my layman’s response to your questions, Barb, but it is born from my understanding of Our Merciful, Loving Redeemer who wills and ardently desires ALL men to be saved.*

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

first, maybe you need to re-read what i said. I said “I feel…” not that i KNOW.

But then you followed up the next sentence:

distracted:

I mean: How could a person possibly condone something SO hideous unless that were the case??

So, seems you “feel” and then act like it’s a matter of fact. Why the hostility?

frankly i feel that anyone who commits murder of any kind is possessed (unless it was done in a jealous rage or whatever…& even then, i wonder… ) where have you been? There ARE demons in every corner… .

It doesn’t matter what you feel because feelings without knowledge is pretty useless. You have no evidence to support your feeling. Just because you read a book or two on exorcism doesn’t mean you can make judgments about something as complex as possession.

Where have I been? Fighting demons instead of reading books. Where you have been? No, there aren’t demons in every corner. Not everything that happens in the world has a demon attached to it and not every person who commits a sin or crime is possessed by a demon.

Diagnosing possession is not that simple, not matter what you think. Actually discuss this with people in the deliverance ministry or who are participating in exorcisms and you’ll get a different picture.

There are legitimate cases of mental instability that have nothing to do with demons. That’s why diagnosing possession is difficult. Some of the same symptoms are present in both.

You’re barking up the wrong tree on this subject with me. I was offering my knowledge and experience in real exorcism cases and confrontations with the Devil. Not anymore. I leave you to your own thoughts because you obviously aren’t open to the thoughts of others.

MW

 

[beckycmarie]

Presupposing a person is actually demonically possessed but with free will still intact (as The Church teaches), then if such a person actually chooses to be possessed and all it implies…then this person, it seems to me, could well be termed “perfectly possessed” since they actively choose to be so with no desire to be saved nor helped?
And to reason that such a state is impossible is a denial of our free will - it is to state that our will is not entirely free?

Hi Barb,

You and I are in agreement here. If the person has free will intact and wills to be in accord with a demon, it is one thing. Where the problem comes in is when people assert that a demon possesses the will, as has been done before when it comes to the teachings of Malachi Martin. A demon can posses a body, but cannot take over someone’s free will.

I personally would not want to use the terminology “perfectly posessed” since it originated with Malachi Martin comes with all the connotations of loss of free will and impossibility of deliverance that he teaches.

For Satan to strive to drive a person to despair is an entirely different matter. In my example above, the person is actually and actively freely choosing Satan and all the concurrent evil in the wake. To be tempted to despair, or an attempt made to drive a person to despair, it seems to me that the person needs to have some hope somewhere in the first place of salvation? Else despair is clearly impossible. In my example above, the person has no desire whatsoever for salvation in the first place - does not want to be saved…

I see where you’re saying despair of salvation and despair of deliverance are two different matters, but under Martin’s teachings, the two are closely related. He asserts that a person can choose evil to the point that he becomes “perfectly possessed” and that his will is permanently set against God and that free will is revoked and handed over to Satan with no help of repentance or deliverance. Essentially Martin asserts that God would give up on that person and leave them, body, soul and will, under the complete control of demons. My understanding is that a person’s will is not “fixed” on evil untill he dies unrepentant in a state of mortal sin, not before.

If God were to allow such a thing, it would essentially condemn a person to Hell while still on earth. He gives us every chance to choose salvation until our last heartbeat.

 

[Joysong]

He gives us every chance to choose salvation until our last heartbeat.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

beckycmarie:

Hi Barb,

You and I are in agreement here. If the person has free will intact and wills to be in accord with a demon, it is one thing. Where the problem comes in is when people assert that a demon possesses the will, as has been done before when it comes to the teachings of Malachi Martin. A demon can posses a body, but cannot take over someone’s free will.

I personally would not want to use the terminology “perfectly posessed” since it originated with Malachi Martin comes with all the connotations of loss of free will and impossibility of deliverance that he teaches.

I actually have to agree with you, beckycmarie, on the idea of possession and a person’s will. Based on my own experiences, I don’t think anyone is beyond help - that is, I don’t think God gives up on people. I also believe that a person’s “soul” can never be truly sold to the Devil because you don’t “own” it to begin with.

We may give our bodies, our possessions, our minds, etc to the Devil, but something he is not allowed to own is a person’s soul. I would have to go back to my books to see what the term “perfect possession” implies. My understanding is that the term meant that the person was unrepentant and unwilling to disassociate themselves from the Devil and in effect became unredeemable because they chose it to be that way.

That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to be delivered, but the person must be willing and some people, frankly, just aren’t willing. So, in my mind, the term would have to spelled out clearly and in this manner for me to agree with it.

If the term means that a person can get to a point where they no longer have free-will (which means choice), then I couldn’t agree with that because it presupposes the erroneous belief that we can give our souls over to the Devil, which is a theological impossibility.

EDIT:

By the way, I’ve known and continue to work with people whose level of possession would rival any known severe case and I can tell you that I’ve not seen perfect possession as a reality.

Peace…

MW

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Wow! You’re really deep in thought tonight, Barb! Good questions. Let’s assume a person uses their free will to reject God and embrace evil and has no desire for salvation or eternal life with God. I just happened to read this morning from 2 Tim. 2:12, "If we disown him, he will also disown us , but if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

This tells me from the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin, that Jesus will always seek us, for he cannot disown himself. “I have other sheep that are not of this fold, and them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice.” Jn. 10:16

I believe God importunes us to intercede for the lost and seeks such intercessors who are listening to His Spirit so we can cooperate with His saving grace. As you know, this was the mission of St. Therese who won a special grace for that infamous man who was going to the gallows. He repented at the very last minute due to her prayers for him. She had asked God for this initial grace of his conversion as a sign that He would use her efforts henceforth to obtain similar graces for others.

This is only my layman’s response to your questions, Barb, but it is born from my understanding of Our Merciful, Loving Redeemer who wills and ardently desires ALL men to be saved.

Hi Carole…good to be speaking with you again and a joyous Christmas to you and yours!

No way would I challenge that The Lord desires the salvation of all without exception and that He works actively to bring this above…however, we have free will and can reject His Grace and some actively do so it must be, else none would be in Hell having chosen it in the first place?

but if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Barb,

You and I are in agreement here. If the person has free will intact and wills to be in accord with a demon, it is one thing. Where the problem comes in is when people assert that a demon possesses the will, as has been done before when it comes to the teachings of Malachi Martin. A demon can posses a body, but cannot take over someone’s free will.

I personally would not want to use the terminology “perfectly posessed” since it originated with Malachi Martin comes with all the connotations of loss of free will and impossibility of deliverance that he teaches.

I see where you’re saying despair of salvation and despair of deliverance are two different matters, but under Martin’s teachings, the two are closely related. He asserts that a person can choose evil to the point that he becomes “perfectly possessed” and that his will is permanently set against God and that free will is revoked and handed over to Satan with no help of repentance or deliverance. Essentially Martin asserts that God would give up on that person and leave them, body, soul and will, under the complete control of demons. My understanding is that a person’s will is not “fixed” on evil untill he dies unrepentant in a state of mortal sin, not before.

If God were to allow such a thing, it would essentially condemn a person to Hell while still on earth. He gives us every chance to choose salvation until our last heartbeat.

Hi Becky…and Happy Christmas to you and yours also…I dont know much about Fr. Malachi and am not terribly interested but can fully appreciate that others are and have opinions to share and discuss:thumbsup: …hence I cannot discuss under the terms of Malachi either for or against, since I have never read any of his works, nor taken any interest in him or what is said about him really. It seems to me simply that he is a very controversial figure with nothing settled…all is still in a state of controversy re Fr. Malachi.

However, God would never revoke free will and it is heretical to with insight assert such and yes salvation is open to all until the last heartbeat, no matter the evil and debauchery of the life lived. The Church does assert that in the case of both possession and obsesssion (demonic) free will remains intact and free. It seems in such cases that demonic forces, against the free will of the person, can have some control over certain human functions. There is no culpability however on the part of the person, unless the person in free will consents to such control absolutely.

“Perfect possession” seems to me to be a term of indeterminate actual definition simply because the term (as I understand it) does not exist in formal Catholic theology, nor have I ever heard it before - although of course for the sake of discussion such could be agreed upon.

If a person has no longer freedom of will recognizing good from evil, and able to choose freely between the two, it is called insanity. This of course is a completely different matter again. Of course, to freely choose Hell and damnation strikes me as an absolute insanity since everything has a complete opposite - and once one gets to know The Thing, who would want to spend eternity with it:shrug:

I am no expert for sure on such matters along with all else.

And now I must go up the shops as it is Christmas Eve here and last opportunity to do the fresh food shopping before shops close until Monday.

Barbhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_16_11.gif

 

[Joysong]

I seem to recall a lovely little anecdote in the life of St. Therese re the repentant murderer and the hangman…after his conversion prior to execution, she pondered that if God was going to answer her prayers just as she wished, she had better be careful about what she asked for!

Ah, I’m glad you remembered this incident, Barb. My husband had a tatoo that said basically the same thing, for he found it to be very true!

I send my very best wishes for a beautiful Christmas. I just realized that it is already Christmas Eve day in Aussie land. O Holy Night, O Holy Infant Savior, bless my friend Barb!

Carole

 

[apromisemade]

No. And I can say that with some authority because I, unfortunately, used to be one of them.

I was a passionate defender of the “right” of abortion. I would get defensive of it. I was completely stone hearted toward the fact that human life begins at conception. But one day I stopped and thought…What was I so angry about??

I then realized…

There were many moments in my childhood when I genuinely wished I had never been born. I contemplated killing mysef at age 7 because I felt so unloved, unimportant, and unwanted. I always felt like an encumbrance, never a priority.

My anger, I realized, was not directed, or perhaps was misdirected, at the pro-life movement and the plight of unborn children. I realized I was really angry because of the lack of validation and sympathy for what I experienced as a child, the feeling of being unwanted by my own parents. If someone feels compelled to abort their pregnancy, that obviouslly means they don’t want the baby. I had gotten the misguided notion in my head that there really is such a thing as an “unwanted child.” I thought that these babies, should they’ve been allowed to be born, would’ve met the same fate I had. I was looking at pro-life people and thinking “the only reason you do this is because you don’t understand what if feels like to be marginalized by your own parents.” (If that makes any sense at all:shrug: ) I hardly even understand it myself now.

But I saw the light. I realized it was wrong for me to push my pain and frustration toward my own childhood on those who would never even have a chance at life.

Every time I heard about an abortion I, if only subconsioucly, would think, “There’s one more who was spared from going though what I went through.”

I realize now how twisted that logic is. I kid you not when I say my heart was changed over the course of a bike ride. Oh Heavenly Father, you never cease to amaze me.

 

[beckycmarie]

I realize now how twisted that logic is. I kid you not when I say my heart was changed over the course of a bike ride. Oh Heavenly Father, you never cease to amaze me.

Dear apromisemade,

Thank you for your testimony. I praise God for your conversion. It is astounding what He can do with even the hardest heart once we decide to start listening to Him and to cooperate with His will. Your story is a beautiful example of His amazing grace.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Dear apromisemade,

Thank you for your testimony. I praise God for your conversion. It is astounding what He can do with even the hardest heart once we decide to start listening to Him and to cooperate with His will. Your story is a beautiful example of His amazing grace.

… Amen…God bless you indeed for your testimony which is great encouragement to us all and takes no little courage I think…
Look at what The Lord and His Grace did with St. Paul who started out hating Christians, hunting them down and murdering them:thumbsup: …

.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t have a problem with people who don’t accept Malachi Martin’s expertise on exorcism or demonic possession.

Fine, I don’t accept everything that other’s accept.

What I don’t accept, is statments like this;

You, Jim, are putting your own soul and the souls of those reading this forum at risk by continuing to propagate Martin’s Doctrine of Despair. Please stop.

This violates CAF rules which prohibits questioning the spiritual level of a person.

If you don’t agree with Malachi Martin’s writings, fine, don’t agree with him.

But don’t attack people who do.

Merry Christmas
Jim

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Merry Christmas to all! And to all I say this: Let us fight darkness with light and exalt our Lord Jesus!

Peace…

MW

 

[Joysong]

JimR-OCDS:

I don’t have a problem with people who don’t accept Malachi Martin’s expertise on exorcism or demonic possession.

I think I see where the misunderstanding originated. Becky briefly stated her opinion of Fr. Martin in post #2. *“The concept of perfect possession is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. I believe it was an invention of Malachi Martin.” *

You contradicted your statement above, Jim, and it seems you did have a problem with Becky’s non-acceptance of him. You countered her opinion with your defense of him in a subsequent post which gave details from his website that she considered dangerous to readers.

If you don’t agree with Malachi Martin’s writings, fine, don’t agree with him.

But it wasn’t fine, was it? And your defensive post touting his expertise is what caused her rebuttal.

You, Jim, are putting your own soul and the souls of those reading this forum at risk by continuing to propagate Martin’s Doctrine of Despair. Please stop.

This violates CAF rules which prohibits questioning the spiritual level of a person.

I do not believe for a minute that Becky was questioning your spiritual level, for her words do not indicate that at all. My take on it is her concern for Fr. Martin’s doctrinal errors you posted. In many respects, I agree. Barb previously posted these words from Fr. Hardon.

As in the case of possession, the devil is not allowed to force a person’s free will.

However, we see the opposite teaching in your link, and I believe it is this error that is under attack, as you call it, not your spiritual level.

The demon does not physically inhabit the body; it possesses the person’s will.

You both are very special people to me, and I pray this explanation puts a different light on what you felt was a breach of forum rules.

Peace!
Carole

 

[beckycmarie]

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.” (Matthew 5:9)

Thank you, Carole, for stepping in as mediator. Your comments on the point I was trying to make are right on the money. Thank you for translating.

I pray there are no hard feelings, Jim. I do enjoy many of your posts.

 

[distracted]

Distracted,

I know you didn’t, which is why I wanted to bring up what the concept of “perfect possession” claims. Jim confirmed it a few posts later by sharing the quote from Malachi Martin in which Martin asserts that it is possible for someone to be “so far gone” that they are beyond help.

Yes, I know demons will say a person is too far gone. Demons want us to give up; they want us to despair. Which is why we shouldn’t listen to them, or ex-priests who agree with them.

i think what is important in all this is that one must be very careful to guard one’s soul (& others’) against this kind of … giving in to satan in little ways here, little ways there… which then leads to not so little ways (& so forth) until one gets to the point of…being sold out to the devil. This is an importnat condition that i believe is more prevelent/pervasive in society than people care to admit… There is SO much evil in the world these days & its getting worse… You can’t tell me that there aren’t many people out there who fit this descirption of being almost entirely sold out to the devil (&, of course, the devil is not going to advertize… put a virtual sign on someone’s back saying “I’m perfectly possessed”…

Anyway,. We can’t just let these people go - hoping they will some day find Jesus and be set free… God gives us Christians the responsibility of saying what needs to be said to get these people to thinking about (caring about) their eternal destiny. That is why I don’t like it when some posters seem to want to dismiss the whole thing as if we are judging by even questioning/wondering about such a thing…

 

[distracted]

I don’t think pro-choice people are intrinsically evil or possessed.
I think they are just ignorant. So sad.

most probably are not… but abortionists… well, i wonder about them mostly… they see the results of their work.

 

[brigid12]

Don’t give the devil more than his due. Man is capable of much evil on his own without demonic help.

Definitely!

“Do you think radical pro-abortionists are possessed?”

Sort of…yeah. I know a few intense radicals at work who seem possessed when they argue with opponents. They totally lose it, turning red, panting, with bulging eyeballs and sweat building up on the brow. It’s fascinating to watch. I can’t believe how worked up they get. It’s a sign of immaturity, bad judgment, mild insanity, or demonic possession.

Yup, or demonic influence - direct or indirect (through the media, et al).

… …the devil did not make me do it, I chose to do it…

:yup:

Wow! You’re really deep in thought tonight, Barb! Good questions. Let’s assume a person uses their free will to reject God and embrace evil and has no desire for salvation or eternal life with God. I just happened to read this morning from 2 Tim. 2:12, "If we disown him, he will also disown us , but if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

This tells me from the parables of the lost sheep and the lost coin, that Jesus will always seek us, for he cannot disown himself. “I have other sheep that are not of this fold, and them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice.” Jn. 10:16

I believe God importunes us to intercede for the lost and seeks such intercessors who are listening to His Spirit so we can cooperate with His saving grace. As you know, this was the mission of St. Therese who won a special grace for that infamous man who was going to the gallows. He repented at the very last minute due to her prayers for him. She had asked God for this initial grace of his conversion as a sign that He would use her efforts henceforth to obtain similar graces for others.

This is only my layman’s response to your questions, Barb, but it is born from my understanding of Our Merciful, Loving Redeemer who wills and ardently desires ALL men to be saved.

I agree with this!