C
chicago
Guest
That sort of a nickname for a priest usually isn’t affectionately given.
Do you think secular (upbeat, fast) music at mass is distracting?
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StephenB
Guest
Nope!
And quite honestly, this sounds like very passive / aggressive behavior due to the apparently perceived or actual lack of power he holds within the parish.From the other entires by OP, it seems he realizes he’s fighting an uphill battle, so rather than face it directly and take his concerns up the chain of command, he’s sadly opted for the “pithy” approach. (I don’t know this priest from adam’s rib, but I’ve seen the behavior often enough.)
Hopefully some one can approach HIM about his approach to issues and help him find a more constructive method to resolve problems.
A
anniemart
Guest
Our pastor does need to work constructively with others to resolve the music issue…you are right. …Nope!
From the other entires by OP, it seems he realizes he’s fighting an uphill battle, so rather than face it directly and take his concerns up the chain of command, he’s sadly opted for the “pithy” approach. (I don’t know this priest from adam’s rib, but I’ve seen the behavior often enough.)
Hopefully some one can approach HIM about his approach to issues and help him find a more constructive method to resolve problems.
just a note…we have no musical director…
perhaps we should kindly keep in mind that in a perfect world our duties are all spelled out for us in detail and everyone does their job well. But, unfortunately, we are all human and as such, I have seen on more than one occasion, the tantrums, the exhaustedness, and especially the goodness that these holy men offer us. I’m a regular volunteer at the church so I’ve witnessed it. What can we do other than remember to pray for them no matter what they might say out loud to us in a moment of frustration?
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anniemart
Guest
hmmm…I hadn’t thought of it this way.
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StephenB
Guest
Having worked for 20 years with military chaplains, I can empathize with you completely - we do need to remember to pray for the pastors - especially when we wowrk closely with them and see their humanity on a much closer level than most people can even imagine. That is a reflection of trust they have people they work closely with: the expectation that what “happens in the rectory stays in the rectory” so to speak.
Your best bet IS to continually invoke the guidance and love of the Holy Spirit to help your priest renew himself in his ministry and remain a faithful witness through his actions and words.
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Sarabande
Guest
You are right.
In regards to having no music director, I would suggest that the priest speak with whomever is in charge of the choir or who chooses the music for the choir.
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Aramis
Guest
One other reminder: It is the Pastor’s duty to oversee the music. The pastor appoints the musicians, the pastor assigns priests of his parish to the schedule.
The Pastor may have delegated the music choice to the choir director (Mine does). But at least at my home parish, the music director will get a PRIVATE correction if it goes awry. And the Pastor will listed to his assistants and associates.
The pastoral assistants don’t always have any say.
If this priest is being refered to as “little bishop” and isn’t the pastor, well, it’s probably because he’s
The Pastor may have delegated the music choice to the choir director (Mine does). But at least at my home parish, the music director will get a PRIVATE correction if it goes awry. And the Pastor will listed to his assistants and associates.
The pastoral assistants don’t always have any say.
If this priest is being refered to as “little bishop” and isn’t the pastor, well, it’s probably because he’s
- outspoken
2a) critical of the bishop who is generaly popular
2b) overzealously in favor of the bishop who is generally unpopular - often “very old school” (as opposed to traditional) with all the poor habits that implies. (One priest was using as recently as 5 years ago, “Pray for the Conversion of the Jews, and for the forgivenness of their [Treachery].” (I’m not certain on the exact wording he used) on the good friday liturgy in English during the prayers of the faithful.
J
jrnami
Guest
If you are refering to Praise and Worship type music, I wouldn’t define that as ‘secular’. I love it and I wish it were more common. I find it spiritually uplifting.
M
MusicMan
Guest
I’m a little suprised that the OP called me out by name … but I’ll give you a short thesis… or perhaps a long one.
Without regard to secular vs. sacred, different styles, modes, and keys will affect people in different ways and illicit different responses. Tonal music has developed two of the six Church modes into common use, Ionian became major, Aeolian became minor. Within tonal music, major keys will typically be cheerier and happier, while minor keys will be more sad. Keys such as D Major and G Major will be very bright sounding (D Major is sometimes call the Sun Key), while Bb and Eb (the Band keys) will be darker.
The song that almost made the OP cry was probably in a minor key, while Glory and Praise to Our God makes a nice recessional because it’s in G Major and is thus cheerier.
So right off the bat, how modes and keys are used will affect people’s moods and responses.
Styles will affect people too. More upbeat music will make people happier (and might cause them to clap), while “down-tempo” music may be calming. Most traditional hymns, when played at a fast enough tempo, will be very upbeat and happy. Even Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, in the key of F Major is very upbeat and happy when taken fast enough.
When you get into jazz and rock styles, you have the addition of a bass player, and possibly a drummer. A bass player will bring added excitment, as will a drummer. And, if the bass player is playing ever so slightly ahead of the drummer, it will cause a sense of anxiety in the listeners that is appropriate to the style.
Let’s recap the OP’s situation. If the music was in a rock style, in a major key, especially G or D, there was a bass player and a drummer, we have a recepie for the psychological reaction of the faithful at this Mass.
Are these appropriate for Mass? I dunno. I’m not a degreed-liturgist. It is my professional opinion as a musician that if you’re going to have a Contemporary-style choir, that having these instruments is desirable and appropriate. It is my opinion as a pastoral musician that the congregation is best served when there is appropriate variety to the music. If there are enough people in the congregation to support Contemporary music, there’s no reason not to have it at one Mass a weekend. Then people can decide which Mass to go to.
As for the sacred/secular debate… Sung music must have a text that is theologically appropriate for Catholic worship. “Contemporary Christian Music” often contains lyrics that are not theologically sound, or is downright heretical.
Instrumental music on the other hand … Bach didn’t write his Toccatas, Preludes, and Fugues for Catholic Mass… he didn’t even write all of them specifically for Lutheran worship, yet our Holy Father has had the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor as a postlude at several of his major Papal Masses (including his installation).
There’s my thoughts. Impeach away.
Without regard to secular vs. sacred, different styles, modes, and keys will affect people in different ways and illicit different responses. Tonal music has developed two of the six Church modes into common use, Ionian became major, Aeolian became minor. Within tonal music, major keys will typically be cheerier and happier, while minor keys will be more sad. Keys such as D Major and G Major will be very bright sounding (D Major is sometimes call the Sun Key), while Bb and Eb (the Band keys) will be darker.
The song that almost made the OP cry was probably in a minor key, while Glory and Praise to Our God makes a nice recessional because it’s in G Major and is thus cheerier.
So right off the bat, how modes and keys are used will affect people’s moods and responses.
Styles will affect people too. More upbeat music will make people happier (and might cause them to clap), while “down-tempo” music may be calming. Most traditional hymns, when played at a fast enough tempo, will be very upbeat and happy. Even Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, in the key of F Major is very upbeat and happy when taken fast enough.
When you get into jazz and rock styles, you have the addition of a bass player, and possibly a drummer. A bass player will bring added excitment, as will a drummer. And, if the bass player is playing ever so slightly ahead of the drummer, it will cause a sense of anxiety in the listeners that is appropriate to the style.
Let’s recap the OP’s situation. If the music was in a rock style, in a major key, especially G or D, there was a bass player and a drummer, we have a recepie for the psychological reaction of the faithful at this Mass.
Are these appropriate for Mass? I dunno. I’m not a degreed-liturgist. It is my professional opinion as a musician that if you’re going to have a Contemporary-style choir, that having these instruments is desirable and appropriate. It is my opinion as a pastoral musician that the congregation is best served when there is appropriate variety to the music. If there are enough people in the congregation to support Contemporary music, there’s no reason not to have it at one Mass a weekend. Then people can decide which Mass to go to.
As for the sacred/secular debate… Sung music must have a text that is theologically appropriate for Catholic worship. “Contemporary Christian Music” often contains lyrics that are not theologically sound, or is downright heretical.
Instrumental music on the other hand … Bach didn’t write his Toccatas, Preludes, and Fugues for Catholic Mass… he didn’t even write all of them specifically for Lutheran worship, yet our Holy Father has had the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor as a postlude at several of his major Papal Masses (including his installation).
There’s my thoughts. Impeach away.
V
VAC
Guest
I don’t think he’s acting in the person of Christ at this point.
It’s a comletely inappropriate, immature and ineffective way to lead a music ministry or a parish. He needs to make his wishes clearly known to the music leader and set tangible guidelines for what he wants. If he has not communicated his wishes to the appropriate persons, and has not seen that clear guidelines, and clear consequences for not following the guidelines, then IMO he should not complain about the results.
Unfortunately, this is an all to common method of leadership in my experience.
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VAC
Guest
Pray for them? of course. Invoke the Holy Spirit? Absolutely.Having worked for 20 years with military chaplains, I can empathize with you completely - we do need to remember to pray for the pastors - especially when we wowrk closely with them and see their humanity on a much closer level than most people can even imagine. **That is a reflection of trust they have people they work closely with: the expectation that what “happens in the rectory stays in the rectory” so to speak. **
What happens in the rectory stays in the rectory??
Absloutely NOT!!! Things must be brought out into the open. People must be accountable.
The sex abuse scandals were bad enough… The fact that they were hidden and covered up is what caused so much damage and mistrust against the church.
V
VociMike
Guest
Totally secular (profane).
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VociMike
Guest
It is quite secular, in composition, instrumentation and presentation. Hence the very same songs can and will be played at Christian rock and pop concerts and other non-liturgical events.
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anniemart
Guest
The song that almost made the OP cry was probably in a minor key, while Glory and Praise to Our God makes a nice recessional because it’s in G Major and is thus cheerier.
Wow! I’ve learned so much from all the posters regarding sacred music…and I knew that you would be kind enough to respond…so thank you very much
You are absolutely right…the one that made me weep was not a happy sounding one. I don’t know the name yet but I will get it soon. I absolutely adore Holy God We Praise Thy Name and Herre I am Lord. The latter one has verses that include “Is it I Lord?” I have heard you calling in the night." and “Whom shall I send?” For someone who has spent very little of her lifetime in worshiping our Lord, I hope to someday know all these sacred songs by heart. Thanks again!
Wow! I’ve learned so much from all the posters regarding sacred music…and I knew that you would be kind enough to respond…so thank you very much
You are absolutely right…the one that made me weep was not a happy sounding one. I don’t know the name yet but I will get it soon. I absolutely adore Holy God We Praise Thy Name and Herre I am Lord. The latter one has verses that include “Is it I Lord?” I have heard you calling in the night." and “Whom shall I send?” For someone who has spent very little of her lifetime in worshiping our Lord, I hope to someday know all these sacred songs by heart. Thanks again!
P
PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
Cite a source for this judgement.
My documents say that other instruments beside organ may be used in the dioceses of the United States.
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VociMike
Guest
Simple. The history of the saxophone is my source. It’s a secular instrument, pure and simple.
That wasn’t the question at hand. The question was, is the saxophone a secular (profane) instrument. It is, just like the electric guitar, electronic keyboard and drum set.
D
demerzel85
Guest
Growing up with the Missa De Angelis sung on the 2nd Sunday of every month, I must say that as a youth, plain chant, polyphony, Gregorian Chant and organ versicles are proper to the Mass.
C
chicago
Guest
The history of the saxophone, simply, is not that long. It’s use, while uncommon in symphonies (for example), has not developed a particularly strong usage in liturgical experience, either. Though other instruments such as violin, trumpet, and oboe have found their place. There is no intrinsic reason why a saxophone could not be appropriately accomodated for liturgical music, though admittedly, my own preferences and experience have suggested that an ideal use has not yet been found for such.
J
jrnami
Guest
No, it’s not secular if it praises God. It’s spiritual.
V
VociMike
Guest
I’ll simply repeat, it is quite secular, in composition, instrumentation and presentation. It’s Christian pop rock, or Christian easy listening ballad. Why would you feel the need to deny something so obvious?
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