Do you think that a Catholic who supports a pro-choice candidate is a heretic?

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unfortunately some people just can’t see it:rolleyes:
someone can be for gay rights and not be gay
someone can be for the right to self-defense and be a pacifist
there are so many similar examples
its called “live and let live”
Yep!
 
Geez! We’re talking about something worse than the Jewish Holocaust here Mikey. Stay focused!

And I pointed out how many people in Germany knew and tacitly approved of the Holocaust. And those who know and tacitly approve of our Holocaust are as guilty as they are.

Just like the Germans who didn’t personally shove Jews into the gas chambers, but who tacitly approved of what the Nazis did.

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No doubt, the Holocaust was tragic, and many Germans may have known about it, but if they spoke out against it, they may have ended up in the camps themselves. Pretty good deterrent to keep your mouth shut, eh?

No limitation Abortion is tragic and people here in America can speak out about it, through the political process.

Now can we leave WW2 history to another thread?
 
someone can be for gay rights and not be gay
someone can be for the right to self-defense and be a pacifist
there are so many similar examples
its called “live and let live”
It’s called ‘moral relativism’ . It’s called, 'let’s attempt to defend our position by casting aspersions and bringing up the equivalent to the by accusing those who attempt to point out a great evil of being ‘intolerant’, unable to understand nuances, the old Daniel Websterism of “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

You see, you can ‘say’ or ‘believe’ anything you choose, and I will defend your right–and I’ll also insist on your obeying your responsibilities as well.

Your ‘right’ to yell “FIRE” in a crowded movie theatre is abrogated by law. If there is no fire, and you are simply yelling because you have a ‘right’ to ‘free speech’, and people are crushed to death by the actions of those trying to escape ‘fire’, you are morally responsible for your part in their deaths; they would not have been crushed had you not yelled and incited a panic. There are laws about this. So your ‘free speech’ carries the responsibility that you exercise it with due care and consideration.

Now below I am speaking ‘generally’ and not to a specific person.
Likewise, your right to a different opinion on moral issues is your ‘right’; but if you are Catholic, you carry the responsibility to know the Church’s position on those issues and if your position differs, your responsibility is to examine your position in light of that, with the presumption being that if you are in opposition, you are more than likely in error. Further, if in your mad hubris to exercise your ‘right’ to think or say whatever you choose despite your ‘status’ as a member of a religious group you chose not only to disregard the teachings as an individual, but to espouse your teachings to others, to misrepresent them as ‘authentic’ or of equal or even greater value than the Church’s teachings, your responsibility as a Catholic to not only know but obey and model Catholic teaching for others is gravely compromised and you run the risk of suborning the truth and of leading innocents astray. Further, when your position involves a neglect at best and active cooperation at worst with grave sin–be it perjury, theft, fornication, adultery, abortion or other murder–your immortal soul is in grave peril.

Is it really worth it to appear ‘society’s darling’ by babbling of tolerance, of ‘personal distaste’ for certain actions even when they lead to death, rather than risk looking like some ‘nut’ for following and encouraging the Catholic faith??

I surely don’t think so. I’d rather follow God than the media, rather model my conscience on the Church’s teachings than the newest theory from some scientist, rather listen to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit than the gobbledegook of the latest media darling or pundit.
 
Nope. I’ve told you the difference. A 5 yr old would see it.
Interesting that you chose a 5-year old, since the Church considers such a child too young to fully understand the difference between right and wrong (that’s why we wait a couple of years before admitting a young child to communion.)

Pro-choice means at least “I approve of allowing people to kill children.” The difference between that and pro-aboirtion is merely that between the man who ties the knot at a lynching, and those who stand around and watch.
 
It’s called ‘moral relativism’ . It’s called, 'let’s attempt to defend our position by casting aspersions and bringing up the equivalent to the by accusing those who attempt to point out a great evil of being ‘intolerant’, unable to understand nuances, the old Daniel Websterism of “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

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News Flash! Both sides of the debate to the same thing to the other.

BTW, the old Daniel Websterism quote you tried to put down is a bedrock right we have as Americans, and thank God for it. Many other countries can’t claim it. I may disagree with your position, but you still have every right to say it.
 
Interesting that you chose a 5-year old, since the Church considers such a child too young to fully understand the difference between right and wrong (that’s why we wait a couple of years before admitting a young child to communion.)
I chose a 5 yr old as a sarcastic rebuttal to the poster who mentioned 1st grader logic. I apologize for the use of sarcasm.
 
No doubt, the Holocaust was tragic,
No, the Holocaust was not a tragedy. It was a crime. A brutal and dispicable crime committed in a century marked with many crimes.

Our Holocaust is equally criminal – having killed to date four times as many as died in the Nazi Holocaust.
and many Germans may have known about it, but if they spoke out against it, they may have ended up in the camps themselves. Pretty good deterrent to keep your mouth shut, eh?
And that’s your position – that if you speak against abortion, you will be put in a camp?
No limitation Abortion is tragic and people here in America can speak out about it, through the political process.
Then let us do so – openly and forthrightly. Let us not make excuses for those who support this horrible crime under the rubric of “pro-choice.”
Now can we leave WW2 history to another thread?
When speaking of the horror of abortion, can you find a better historical parallel? Do you have another example where millions of innocent people were put to death, and others who knew what was happening stood by in tacit approval?
 
I can’t read all the posts here but I would like to ask a question before I vote:
  1. Define what “support” means for this poll? Is it just voting for a pro choice candidate or does it mean more, like say volunteering.
If support means more than just voting I don’t know if it makes one a heretic but it certainly can be sinful and scandalous.
 
Heresy is defined as “the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by a baptized member of the church”.

So no, it’s not heresy, but it may be a sin, given the right circumstances.
To answer the question as posed, it seems that, technically speaking, it would not constitute heresy, even if it is sinful. The person who votes for a pro-choice/pro-abortion candidate may still technically accept all the articles of faith about when life begins and the immorality of abortion, they may just not be living up to it (and I think failing to live up to the standards of our Catholic faith is probably something we are all guilty of).

That being said, one might argue that, if a Catholic is voting for a pro-choice candidate, do they really understand and accept the Church’s teaching on the dignity of human life beginning at the momet of conception?

If a politician came forward and said he wanted to reinstitute slavery in the U.S., would you say, “Well, I personally oppose your stance on slavery, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on health care.” Or if a politician said he wanted to legalize rape, would you say, “Well, I don’t like your views on rape, but you have a good tax plan!” If any politician said these or similar things, everyone would rightly be disgusted and refuse to vote for them, regardless of what other positions they might hold.

If this holds true for slavery and rape, how much more should this hold for abortion? If someone sees no problem with voting for a candidate who is willing to do everything in his/her power to keep abortion legal, do they really believe that abortion is the killing of a human being? If they do, I would like to hear an explanation of how they reconcile the Church teaching on the grave immorality of abortion with their choice of candidates (I say this not to be flippant but out of a genuine desire to hear an explanation of how someone could possibly reconcile the two).
 
Tantum ergo, I wasn’t arguing for these positions, just trying to clarify the difference between being pro-abortion and being pro-choice. The aspersions were being cast by those making the comments about “pro-abortion”. I’m sure you realise defending a position is very different from agreeing with it:thumbsup:
Do you think I’m arguing for moral relativism BTW?
 
And this is what happens when Religion interferes too much with politics.
Huh? When is God separate from politics or anything else?
One person’s candidate may absolutely represent everything that person believes in except the life vs. choice issue.
Just that life thing?
The pro-life candidate, except for the life vs choice issue, doesn’t have anything else in common with that one person. However, the person is obligated by the Church to vote for the pro-life candidate. Anybody else see a problem here?
The problem is one of moral truth and logic. Why would one conclude there is something more important than the right to life? If we misorder our life then we will come up with erronoeus conclusions.

See, it is not about opinions as in one likes chocolate and one likes strawberry. It is about whether we grasp intentionally allowing innocents to be killed is important or not.

That some fail to grasp truth does not make all “views” equal.
 
No, the Holocaust was not a tragedy. It was a crime. A brutal and dispicable crime committed in a century marked with many crimes.
One major difference among the many similarities, like it or not, abortion is legal in this country. The Holocaust was a product of an insane regime, led by an insane dictator.
 
unfortunately some people just can’t see it:rolleyes:
They can see fine. They simply reject misusing terms.
someone can be for gay rights and not be gay
If by rights you mean codifying vice as a right then yes people here oppose “rights”. Or, more accurately they oppose the idea of calling agenda driven poilitics “rights”.
someone can be for the right to self-defense and be a pacifist
There is a right to self defense. There is no “right” to intentionally kill innocent.
there are so many similar examples
its called “live and let live”
There is no letting live in abortion. It is like saying I am not in favor of bank robbery, but if you want to rob a bank you should be free to do so.
 
mike262:
IMO, People should be allowed to vote their conscience and not be directed by the Church or threatened by it if they happen to vote for somebody the Church disapproves of. Hopefully that conscience has God in the equation.
There is no autonomy of conscience as many think. Truth is above conscience. We must conform our conscience to truth. Voting one’s conscience is only authentic if one has an informed conscience. So, claiming one is voting their conscience, while supporting murder, really is acting erroneously.
Life is not one issue among many as if all are of the same weight.
What I’m saying is most folks hopefully gauge a candidate by what all his positions are and vote accordingly versus only looking at 1 issue and ignoring the others.
One issue can easily be of greater importance than all others. What if chattel slavery were the issue? Would enslaving people be equal to minimum wage or health insurance?
Of course, it’s important, but there are many other issues that are vote critical as well.
Sure, many issue are imporant, but which ones surpass abortion?
Some may say your grasp of “truth”, may not be the same as another person’s “truth”.
Some may think slavery is good. That does not mean their view is morally good. All it means is that a good many form their conscience based on moral relativism.
 
One major difference among the many similarities, like it or not, abortion is legal in this country. The Holocaust was a product of an insane regime, led by an insane dictator.
Just like the Holocaust was legal in Nazi law.

I note you call the Nazis “an insame regime.” Why do you call them that? Is it because they killed 12 million innocent people?

And what does that make us, who have killed four times that many?
 
So if a candidate wants to stop pollution, institute just wages, and basically offers utopia–safe streets, jobs for all, socialist medicine, school vouchers, etc. etc. but is adamantly for ‘abortion rights’, we should vote for that candidate because all the ‘other’ important things by their sheer volume make this candidate’s stand, because of those other things, ‘better’?:confused:

The only thing is, I wonder if all those little murdered children would trade their ‘choice’ to be born just so that you or I can have ‘utopia’ in **our ** lives. Comes to that, it seems pretty immoral to me that I would trade the lives of those children to have ‘the good life’ for anybody, not just me. And yes, it is a trade. So long as it exists and we allow it to exist by our silence, we are culpable.

It seems like the most absurd and extremist scenario. . .but it is real and has been so for 30 plus years. Do we really ‘have’ utopia–no, but arguing as though there is any way that other ‘social justice issues’ come before the primary and most important–the right to life, without which there are no other issues–just seems like grasping at straws.

Because if you take the leap that, wait a minute, nothing is more important than the right to life–you disturb all the happy blinded people who have put this national moral crime on the back burners in order to ‘live and let live’. You put yourself in a position where you (gasp! the horror!) are advocating that some person’s ‘individual choice’ isn’t really individual or a choice. In abortion, the infant dies. . .without any choice whatsoever. You’re pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. That for all the fine sounding rhetoric about choice, and the sobbing personal ‘testimonies’ of how miserable an individual would be were she forced to give birth, ‘ruining’ her life’; the arguments that the child is better off ‘not knowing’ the poor quality of life so abort from the start as ‘kindness’. . .

what you are really saying is, "Millions of babies have been killed and are being killed, and it is (God forgive us) legal, so I am going to shut my eyes, walk away, and either say with the tax collector, thank God I’m not like those others–while doing absolutely nothing to remedy the situation. . .or justify ‘my choice’ with any straw I can grasp, from ‘expediency’ to ‘God will understand’.

God help us.
 
this all simplistically assumes that one candidate will have a monopoly on “pro-life” policies, which often will not be the case
real life as opposed to nice theory
 
this all simplistically assumes that one candidate will have a monopoly on “pro-life” policies, which often will not be the case
real life as opposed to nice theory
It all simplistically assumes that I can see the trainloads of starving Jews roll by, and when the wind is right I can smell the smoke from the crematoria. But, hey, this is real life, so I have no obligation to do anything about it, which means I can even tacitly support this Holocaust.
 
So if a candidate wants to stop pollution, institute just wages, and basically offers utopia–safe streets, jobs for all, socialist medicine, school vouchers, etc. etc. but is adamantly for ‘abortion rights’, we should vote for that candidate because all the ‘other’ important things by their sheer volume make this candidate’s stand, because of those other things, ‘better’?:confused:
IMO, someone who doesn’t look at the “whole person” when deciding how to vote is not voting intelligently. Whole person meaning taking all the issues into account and not just one. To do otherwise is absurd IMO. However, this is exactly what happened in the last Congressional elections. Most everybody looked at the war as the central issue and virtually ignored everything else. Now we have a liberal Democrat dominated Congress; not real good for the Pro-Life movement.

The abortion issue is certainly an important one, and one I do carefully consider when evaluating a candidate, but I look at everything he/she stands for and then I vote accordingly.
 
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