Do you think that High-Church Anglicanism is much more elaborate and ornate than Novus Ordo Catholicism?

[CradleCath]

corsair;5909489]It doesn’t take much to be more reverent than the Novus Ordo.

Agreed. We, for 8 Months had a parish in our city that celebrated the Novus Ordo, as it was supposed to be said. Latin was given a prominent place in the Liturgy…as was Gregorian Chant. We could either kneel at the old altar rail for Communion…or remain standing & receive in the hand. It was a true relief from the Masses I’d been attending for so long & if it were still available here, I might still be going to that parish.

However, The Novus Ordo…
even when prayed with reverence, is mundane & NOISY compared to the TLM. The awe-inspiring majesty of the Mass of Trent just isn’t there &, for me at least,
meditating on the Sacrifice that is taking place on the Altar, becomes harder & harder as the busy-busyness increases.

I feel comfortable saying that here on the “traditional” forum. But watch some libs come over to attack.

Cheers

Oh oh…You shouldn’t feel comfortable. The number of liberals posting on the “Traditional forum” is infinite. They come here to monitor the Traditionalists…to make sure that we aren’t guilty of “heresy”.

 

[ProVobis]

And if the change in the form of the Mass was such a cause of defection from the Church, then please explain why western Europe has had a far, far greater defection from weekly Mass attendance than the US, and why an area, such as Poland, which also had the change to the form of the Mass, has had such far, far greater attendance. All three - the US, western Europe and Poland, all had the same form of the Mass change; Europe fell so far off the edge of the earth that they make us look great; and Poland is so far beyond us that your conclusion makes no sense. Both the US and Poland should be showing attendance rates similar to Europe if the change in the Mass form was the cause of loss of attendance, but they don’t. However, Europe is far more secualrized than the US, and the US far more than Poland.

Not exactly a ceteris paribus argument. Poland has had a very high (estimated at 90%) Catholic population and will stay Catholic and attend Mass no matter what, even their divorced and remarrieds. Pope JPII was from Poland and thus the Polish took even greater pride in their faith when he disrupted the long line of Italian Popes. Also the Polish consecration does have the words “for you and for many” and you’ll find a much higher percentage of Poles who take confession before communion a lot more seriously than other countries. If the US only took half of the same pride Poles (and Hispanics, for that matter) have in their Catholic faith.

 

[Timothysis]

Also the Polish consecration does have the words “for you and for many” …

Are you suggesting that Mass attendance has declined due to the singular fact that the English translation of the liturgy reads “for you and for all?” In my entire life I have never heard the argument regarding “for all” vs. “for many” until I started visiting here. I think it is absurd to suggest that the Pauline Missal is the cause of the decline in religiosity in America post 1960s. As has been posted here before mainstream protestant denominations experienced the same decline post 1970. To place the blame on “for all” vs “for many” is to greatly over exaggerate the degree of knowledge of the average Catholic (the only ones I see who object to “for all” are the militant “Trads” who post here) and to underestimate the influence of the secularization that occurred in the post World War II world.

 

[ProVobis]

Are you suggesting

No, I’m not suggesting anything. You focused on a by-the-way and jumped to unwarranted conclusions again.

Just merely offering some explanations on how it’s unfair to lump all cultures together on the Post-Vatican II issues.

Actually post Vatican II is more about cultures than pre-Vatican II, though prior to Vatican II, the Poles seemed to have stuck together about as much as they do now, but that’s only an observation.

 

[wisdomseeker]

My overall experience has been at OF masses that are said reverently. I realize that this hasn’t been the experience of all the posters on this thread. At a recent daily mass, when my pastor sat down after communion he began to sing “Oh, Lord, I am not worthy”, IMHO the perfect after-communion song. He is 65 and recently ordained, after 34 years as a Franciscan brother. Thank God, for holy pastors!

Our former pastor was the youngest in the diocese, also one who was obviously committed to his priesthood and the Lord. He always did everything according to the rubrics. (well there was one aberration on Holy Thursday washing of the feet of some who were not men but I don’t expect perfection in this world).

I’m not liberal, not conservative, just Catholic. I’m so happy to be Catholic all my life beginning way before Vat.2. I’ll go to mass anywhere: OF, EF, other rites, English, Spanish, French, Latin. Just give me Jesus and I’m happy!

In my Parish the holy Thursday the wash of feet was only women and children. talk about aberration.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Br. David:

You are under no obligation to read or respond to this.

I agree with you and the Holy Father that there is only one Rite within the Latin Church. I further agree that the Rite contains both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms.

Novus Ordo Catholicism is neither a rite nor a form within the Catholic Church. It’s a toxic attitude of superiority - introduced to the Church in the 70s and 80s - that continues to infect many parishes today. It is about intolerance, disrespect, suppression of ideas, gratuitous exercise of authority, crushing of opposition, desecration of what is sacred, elevation of what is not.

What is obvious to some may be less so to others. Indeed, one who sees no evidence of the existence of racism or sexism may benefit from a closer look. Or not.

Peace. Out.

good points…

may be to those who have never experienced the dissecration in the Church of today may not understand why we say these things.

but i can tell, in my area. all those i talk to have something to say about the Parishes in my area, each one is worse than the other. from disrespect of the Liturgy by priests and parishoners to rock roll band music. where is the Bishop on all this. nobody knows.

the feeling i have is that some priests thinks that they own the Church. each is doing their own adding and taking as they please.

the radio music in my Parish is torturous. but no sign of changing.

Lord have Mercy.

 

[otjm]

Not exactly a ceteris paribus argument. Poland has had a very high (estimated at 90%) Catholic population and will stay Catholic and attend Mass no matter what, even their divorced and remarrieds. Pope JPII was from Poland and thus the Polish took even greater pride in their faith when he disrupted the long line of Italian Popes. Also the Polish consecration does have the words “for you and for many” and you’ll find a much higher percentage of Poles who take confession before communion a lot more seriously than other countries. If the US only took half of the same pride Poles (and Hispanics, for that matter) have in their Catholic faith.

The peak in church attendance was 1957 - 1958 in the US, well before Vatican 2 was even an idea. Attendance fell off gradually since then, with one or two spikes upward; there are no statistics showing any rapid drop after the introduction of the OF. Comments that the loss of attendance in weekly Mass are due to the introduction of the EF do not explain why, long before the EF was introduced, attendance was already dropping; further, the gradual erosion of attendance does not fit the picture of people leaving because of the EF as that was introduced extremely rapidly and in the US as has been admitted elsewhere and repeatedly, with little effective catechesis. Because of the way it was introduced, if there was to be a significant drop, it would have occured soon thereafter. There is no such drop. The fact is, the vast majority of people attending Mass at the time of the EF, whether they liked it or not, continued attending, with an erosion to attendance at about the same rate as before it was proposed.

However, your responses about Poland completely miss the point; John Paul 2 was not named pope until well long after the EF was introduced in Poland; so if the EF was the cause of a major drop, it should show long before his being named pope. However, there was no such drop. Why? Because the Polish bishops as a group made serious and repeated efforts to implement the documents of Vatican 2, and implemented the EF, both by strong and continuous catechesis. These points are simply ignored by those who dislike, dispise and/or hate the EF because it does not fit into their theory; their theory is constructed of whole cloth and never mind the facts.

Interestingly, Poland since it was out from under the command and control of Communism, has started to show the same erosion pattern to Mass attendance. What changed? Not the Mass; the EF is primarily celebrated there. Not the Pope, as it started occuring while John Paul 2 was alive.

So what changed? The first issue was changes to the economy, and freedom from government control; with that economic change came a society more capable of achieving material goods, and with that came the issue of materialism; and not long behind that came the issue of secularism, as the press and entertainment outlets were much more open to Western practices and thought.

 

[PA650]

Why does Catholic Church deny its rich liturgical heritage?:dts:

Although the simplifying of the liturgy within the Catholic Church is saddening, I still find the loss of the traditional Lutheran liturgy to a more “contemporary” service in many parishes to be a step in the wrong direction. Alas, these are the times that we live in.

 

[DarkNight]

***" No more smells&bells,Mozart,Bach in church "

Why does Catholic Church deny its rich liturgical heritage?***

If you are going to mass expecting smells & bells & 18th century music and other such pageantry then you are going with the wrong expectations. You expecting a certain entertainment.

Go to mass expecting to find God. In focusing on Him the incidentals always become glorious.

Music from the heart, whether Gregorian chant or folk songs, are all part of the rich liturgical heritage of the church.

I have been to Tridentine, Byzantine and Novus Ordo masses; I found God at them all.

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In response to the OP, actually even the regular Anglican parish here in town that I have attended is much more reverent and pius in ritual than the novus ordo Catholic Mass, and this Anglican Church is really middle church, not high with the bells and whistles, but by no means low evangelical either.

Going to Mass here in central California is a kind of purgatory. Happy-clappy guitars with synthesizers, Hispanic-style music infused even into the English Mass music, people holding hands during the Our Father, everyone taking communion in the hand. It blows.

Honestly when the Swine flu came and no one was able to hold hands during the Our Father, I felt like it was just awesome! And no hand-shaking, even better! That H1N1 wasn’t so bad liturgically!

Now if they could just come up with a virus that requires latin, incense and no guitar-strumming as a cure, I’d be in business!!

 

[Spirithound]

Not exactly a ceteris paribus argument. Poland has had a very high (estimated at 90%) Catholic population and will stay Catholic and attend Mass no matter what, even their divorced and remarrieds. Pope JPII was from Poland and thus the Polish took even greater pride in their faith when he disrupted the long line of Italian Popes. Also the Polish consecration does have the words “for you and for many” and you’ll find a much higher percentage of Poles who take confession before communion a lot more seriously than other countries. If the US only took half of the same pride Poles (and Hispanics, for that matter) have in their Catholic faith.

I think you’ve proven otjm’s point: it’s not the fault of VII, or the Pauline Mass, it’s the culture, and the pride they take in their faith.

 

[PA650]

In response to the OP, actually even the regular Anglican parish here in town that I have attended is much more reverent and pius in ritual than the novus ordo Catholic Mass, and this Anglican Church is really middle church, not high with the bells and whistles, but by no means low evangelical either.

Going to Mass here in central California is a kind of purgatory. Happy-clappy guitars with synthesizers, Hispanic-style music infused even into the English Mass music, people holding hands during the Our Father, everyone taking communion in the hand. It blows.

Honestly when the Swine flu came and no one was able to hold hands during the Our Father, I felt like it was just awesome! And no hand-shaking, even better! That H1N1 wasn’t so bad liturgically!

Now if they could just come up with a virus that requires latin, incense and no guitar-strumming as a cure, I’d be in business!!

gurneyhalleck1, are you by any chance familiar with why parishioners hold hands during the Our Father? I hate to say it, but it seems to be nothing but an innovation from “the spirit of Vatican II” albeit such a claim is more or less of a cop-out.

I think you’ve proven otjm’s point: it’s not the fault of VII, or the Pauline Mass, it’s the culture, and the pride they take in their faith.

For example, flickr.com/photos/ilvic/sets/72157600254147670/

 

[ProVobis]

I think you’ve proven otjm’s point: it’s not the fault of VII, or the Pauline Mass, it’s the culture, and the pride they take in their faith.

But is it a good thing to segregate these cultures as the spirit of Vatican II seemed to have done?

Where everyone used to attend the Latin Mass, not everyone attends a Spanish Mass, for example. Or a gay or children’s Mass, for that matter. If the only available Mass were an Italian Mass, would you expect a 100% Mass attendance amongst the Catholics who lived or visited there? That would be my argument against catering to the different cultures. I don’t think that was the idea behind “Go and preach to all nations” message.

By the way, I’m one of those who always believed that the “spirit of Vatican II” started long before the actual council.

 

[CradleCath]

But is it a good thing to segregate these cultures as the spirit of Vatican II seemed to have done?

Where everyone used to attend the Latin Mass, not everyone attends a Spanish Mass, for example.** Or a gay or children’s Mass**, for that matter. If the only available Mass were an Italian Mass, would you expect a 100% Mass attendance amongst the Catholics who lived or visited there? That would be my argument against catering to the different cultures. I don’t think that was the idea behind “Go and preach to all nations” message.

By the way, I’m one of those who always believed that the “spirit of Vatican II” started long before the actual council.

What in the world is a “gay Mass”??

 

[ProVobis]

What in the world is a “gay Mass”??

I don’t know but they had them in Chicago.

And you can throw in polka Masses, guitar Masses, and youth Masses in the mix.

Point is that these Masses are but for an intended segment of the Catholic population. How do you expect everyone to go these?

Compare that to each EF which is (or at least used to be) intended for all and truly universal.

 

[jonpd]

About 9 years ago I went from a High Church Episcopal parish to the Catholic Church. I currently attend an EF Mass in which I find everything I missed about the Anglican Mass and more.

The big drawback to the Anglican / Episcopal church is that it is a church whose authority is scripture and tradition that is interpreted in the light of reason, and therefore every individual has the right to his or her own interpretation of the scriptures and therefore the authority of scripture and tradition in the end does not exist. Therefore you end up with non-celibate gay bishops. Really the only thing in common between churches in the Anglican Communion is the form of worship, i.e. the Prayer Book, everything else can and does vary from one parish tro another and can change at the whim of the rector or the parish vestry.

While beautiful and moving liturgy is important, I think that adhering to the scripture, tradition, and magisterium of the Universal Church is more important.

 

[otjm]

I don’t know but they had them in Chicago.

And you can throw in polka Masses, guitar Masses, and youth Masses in the mix.

Point is that these Masses are but for an intended segment of the Catholic population. How do you expect everyone to go these?

Compare that to each EF which is (or at least used to be) intended for all and truly universal.

The OF is no more intended for sements of the population than the EF.

Or, another way of saying it is that having a Mass, say, for youth in the OF is not some sort of new aberration. We had the same sort of thing before Vatican 2; a prime example is the Red Mass, which is said for judges and attorneys.

That one just happened to start in the Middle Ages; slightly before the time of Vatican 2.

And while a Mass in the OF for youth will be attended more heavily by youth than adults, an EF for attorneys and judges will be attended more heavily by them than “all”.

So the short of it is that I don’t expect everyone to go to an OF that is said for a specific group any more than I would expect everyone to go to an EF said for a specific group - which they were.

An EF that is not said for a specific group is therefore, in terms of who goes, just like an OF that is not said for a specific group. Everyone goes. And whether it is the OF or the EF, both can and have been said for specific groups.

 

[Monica4316]

***Do you think that Vatican II. Council ***has given enough harm to traditional Roman Catholicism and in fact some Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian/Anglican parishes are to be considered more ‘‘High-Church’’ rather than Novus Ordo Catholics? No more smells&bells,Mozart,Bach in church but guitar and commercial music…

Why does Catholic Church deny its rich liturgical heritage?:dts:

I think it really depends on the parish. I’ve been to some really traditional ones, even with Novus Ordo.

But one thing we know we have in the Church is the fulness of truth and correct doctrines

 

[IHeartAquinas]

I think it really depends on the parish. I’ve been to some really traditional ones, even with Novus Ordo.

But one thing we know we have in the Church is the fulness of truth and correct doctrines

Amen.

I am too young to have ever experienced the “clown masses” that my grandmother railed against, but I am old enough to have passed through a couple different parishes in my life. Fortunately for me (I’m horrified by some stories I hear of other parishes), every OF mass I’ve ever attended has been fairly uniform. There have been some slight differences, but all in all, I only had to use the locally-printed missal once outside my home parish.

Monica, however, has it right. This entire thread seems to be debating semantics. My parish celebrates exclusively the OF, and incense is used at every mass of every day of the week. The parish I grew up in was much smaller. Incense was only used on Holy Days of Obligation, and the incense would literally choke you on Christmas and Easter. I asked my priest once why the incense wasn’t used at every mass and he said “We cannot justify spending as much as we would have to on that much incense.” Given the cost of Frankincense (I burn it sometimes in my house), I can believe Fr. Kavenaugh, especially considering the tiny congregation we had growing up.

Isn’t the point of Catholicism that we believe in the fullness of truth as it is contained in the Magesterium of Holy Mother Church? This thread would make it seem that it is about the pomp and ceremony of how we celebrate that makes us the “true, inerrant, infallible” faith. I’ve seen youtube video of pagan festivals that put the EF to shame (and I have attended EF masses). I’m going to go with Monica and celebrate the joy of my faith knowing that we have the fullest expression of truth, and the correct doctrines to guide us as we live our lives in service to God under the inspired wisdom and leadership of the Pope and the Bishops of the world in full Communion with the Holy Mother Church in Rome.

 

[peary]

Doesn’t matter. The high-church anglican service is not the Mass.