True.
Boy, PA, I wish I could tell ya. The holding hands thing makes me wince every time. But then again, so does communion in the hand, extraordinary ministers all over the place (usually like five or six of them at our Masses), and Extraordinary Ministers giving “blessings” to kids and those not wishing to take Communion. It also drives me nuts some of these more kumbaya-type tunes and the lax kick-back air of the post Vatican II atmosphere. I can sympathize with William F. Buckley and JRR Tolkien in their blasting of the new Mass in the vernacular. I envy the people that lived pre-Vatican II…lucky suckers…
), a couple of years back while they were away visiting her side of the family on the West Coast. My son told me the service felt a little more like the Extraordinary Form than the Ordinary Form.Could not agree more!
I’ve collected Tolkien for many, many years. Can you give me a citation/source for that quote? I’d like to read it in its context. I can almost imagine one.
The actual quote is that Anglicanism was ***“a pathetic and shadowy medley of half-remembered traditions and mutilated beliefs.” *** I can’t remember where he said it. Another quotation from Tolkien that always grabbed me was his characterization of Anglicanism in his criticism of C.S. Lewis, his old buddy
books.google.com/books?id=B0loOBA3ejIC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=pathetic+shadowy+medley&source=bl&ots=hgGI6H7a2c&sig=AMOwZzRPpypcRqYJ14Ak3vWI5Oo&hl=en&ei=PyMNS5KLCIvHlAex8rCRBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=pathetic%20shadowy%20medley&f=false
Thank you. I thought it might be from Pearce, I didn’t see it in his TOLKIEN: MAN AND MYTH, which contains some similar thoughts as those in your source…
One may speculate as to the reasons for that. I don’t find the process edifying, generally, though.
Tolkien’s statement is rather bizarre hyperbole. The CofE has so much to do with Western culture (literature, music, and so on) in many positive ways thanks to the British Empire. Its faith as laid out in the Articles is pretty clear.
)We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord, whose property is always to have mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his Body, and our souls washed through his most precious Blood, and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.Oh Lord, we are not worthy so much as to gather the crumbs from under Thy table. But Thou art the same Lord, Who’s property it is always to have mercy. Grant us, therefore, Gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of your Son and to drink his blood; That our souls may be made clean by His body …
That is part of the Prayer of Humble Access in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.
(That was from memory. From a long time ago! Feel free to correct and complete it.
Compare that to the Novus Ordo Mass:
Lord, I am not worthy
to receive you,
but only say the word
and I shall be healed.
Well I wouldn’t say I find it “edifying” either, Jim LOL…I’m just saying that it always seemed odd how Tolkien became estranged from Lewis due to Lewis’ marrying a divorcee and Tokien’s disappointment to yes, I know a RE-version, not a conversion, (my error in typing, I was aware lol) to Anglicanism. I find it interesting, not edifying. Tolkien had a grumpy gossipy side. That was my point. Not that I’m absorbed or obsessed with it
What I meant was that, in discussing Tolkien’s relationship with Lewis, there are points that I have found each side making that I don’t find edifying. One can speculate, and I have seen it done, about more reasons than those two listed above for Tolkien estrangement from Lewis. CSL’s relationship with Charles Williams, for example.Well I wouldn’t say I find it “edifying” either, Jim LOL…I’m just saying that it always seemed odd how Tolkien became estranged from Lewis due to Lewis’ marrying a divorcee and Tokien’s disappointment to yes, I know a RE-version, not a conversion, (my error in typing, I was aware lol) to Anglicanism. I find it interesting, not edifying. Tolkien had a grumpy gossipy side. That was my point. Not that I’m absorbed or obsessed with it
Gotcha. I’m no expert in either of these guys. I know the basics, sketchy info, like Tolkien’s Hobbit and LOTR but apart from that I don’t have the GKC depth of knowledge or insight into their backgrounds. I’ve never gotten into Lewis. After reading the Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe, I found it incredibly bland, tedious, and overly-obvious. Tolkien’s Christian alegories and themes are more subtle and deep, while Lewis is in your face obvious and simple. I’ve heard the Screwtape Letters and some other works of his are more engaging and deep. I’ll probably give him another chance here on a future vacation. I like Tolkien because he reminds me of myself. He loves the old days, the Middle Ages, language, he detests modernity at times and loathes the wealthy elitists of industry that hacked apart the English countryside in the name of building factories and their bellowing black smoke. He was conservative religiously and yet liberal with the environment and quite insightful. He was poetic and had a dry wit. I can identify with him. And I can identify with his characters as well. Except for Gimli LOL…or Gollem and Smaug!
For fun, try the John Cleese reading of SCREWTAPE LETTERS. It’s not complete, but it is great.Gotcha. I’m no expert in either of these guys. I know the basics, sketchy info, like Tolkien’s Hobbit and LOTR but apart from that I don’t have the GKC depth of knowledge or insight into their backgrounds. I’ve never gotten into Lewis. After reading the Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe, I found it incredibly bland, tedious, and overly-obvious. Tolkien’s Christian alegories and themes are more subtle and deep, while Lewis is in your face obvious and simple. I’ve heard the Screwtape Letters and some other works of his are more engaging and deep. I’ll probably give him another chance here on a future vacation. I like Tolkien because he reminds me of myself. He loves the old days, the Middle Ages, language, he detests modernity at times and loathes the wealthy elitists of industry that hacked apart the English countryside in the name of building factories and their bellowing black smoke. He was conservative religiously and yet liberal with the environment and quite insightful. He was poetic and had a dry wit. I can identify with him. And I can identify with his characters as well. Except for Gimli LOL…or Gollem and Smaug!
The Dutch Touch Utrecht consecrations in Anglicanism mitigates your statement but the essence of the sacrifice of the Mass and the Catholic understanding we have of the Mass is not there. You’re correct. And I think the OP is not looking so much at the meat of the Mass but the many pious actions, wording, and the lovely ritual that has been lost thanks to Vatican II and modernity. The OP is not saying that the Roman Catholic Mass is lacking the depth of the Eucharist but rather the surrounding ceremonial pomp and dramatic beauty that it had in former years. I would agree. The holding hands during the Our Father, the poor English translation, the strumming guitar ensemble, the communion in the hand, the lack of incense and gestures, no Latin, laid-back sermons, informality, etc. is all a sad change for people like me who envy my forefathers who were fortunate enough to participate in this and yet, being a child born in the 1970’s I’m stuck with only knowing the present. Ignorance is not always bliss!
:knight1: