Do you think that Infedility is grounds for leaving a marriage?

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I’m not sure if this is the right forum for this, but it seemed the most appropriate.

I recently got into a debate with someone regarding adultery and marriage. The person, a fervent Catholic, believes that adultery is a valid reason to leave a marriage and that infedility is grounds for dissolution of the marriage (reasoning being that anyone capable of infedility was either lying about his/her intentions during vows or unable to keep those vows because sexual fidelity is so vital and integral to a marriage). I did some research regarding the Church’s teachings on this, including the explanation of Matthew’s discussion of marriage which is typically the point that most Christians use when asserting the dissolution of marriage due to adultery, and have come to a deeper understanding of why adultery is not considered sufficient grounds for dissolution or annulment of a marriage within the Catholic church.

Do you think that if someone married with the explicit intent of leaving the marriage in the case of infidelity, that is a valid union? Another way of asking the question is do you think that if one spouse leaves a marriage because of infidelity and it can be proven that he/she always believed that infidelity was a legitmate reason to end a marriage (ie on the wedding day) that this is valid grounds for an annulment?

I’m not speaking about a specific case here, but on the principle that if you go into marriage thinking that X is unacceptable and knowing that you would leave if X happened, is that a valid marriage?

On one hand, this may seem like splitting of hairs in the discussion of annulment, but I think it is something worth thinking about, because I think many Catholics who consider themselves validly married also would assert that they would leave the marriage if infedelity were to occur.

Thoughts?
Canon law deals with this.

If a person has a mistress on the side secretly while he gets married, or he intends to sleep with another particular person etc, while getting married, then the marriage is invalid, because he has a concrete intention of being unfaithful.
If he has an abstract idea like - Its difficult to remain faithful all ones’ life, or: the church is so strict on marial fidelity etc. these abstract ideas are not enough for calling a marriage invalid.
The same can be said of a person who doubts if a marriage can really last all his life. His philosophical theory cannot be grounds for invalidity. But if he already, before the wedding, plans that right after the honeymoon he will run off with another concrete girl, then the marriage is null.

Infidelity is not cause for invalidity, unless the person is psychologically unable to be faithful - eg. he is insane or something.
But unrepented and continuous infidelity is a licit reason for seperation. The Church does not want people to live in inhumane situations.
 
Trust is broken. Covenant is shattered. There IS no more marriage, once infidelity has occured. Its over. I have no problem with divorce for this reason.
No. The covenant lasts until the death of one of the spouses…
Remember that the marriage between Christ and the Church and Jahve and Israel are the models for Christian marriage and marriage receives the Sacramental grace from the power of what Christ has done.
Israel was cheating and comitting adultery. The same with the church… she is very blemished and impure, but Jesus remains faithful.
How many times aren’t we unfaithful to God, but he stays with us?

Its written: what God unites, no man can tear apart. That means that your very human thoughts do not dictate reality.

But lets agree that precisely because divorce and remarriage is not an option for Christians, the Christian spouses have all the more reason not to drive their spouse to despair.
 
No. The covenant lasts until the death of one of the spouses…
Remember that the marriage between Christ and the Church and Jahve and Israel are the models for Christian marriage and marriage receives the Sacramental grace from the power of what Christ has done.
Israel was cheating and comitting adultery. The same with the church… she is very blemished and impure, but Jesus remains faithful.
How many times aren’t we unfaithful to God, but he stays with us?

Its written: what God unites, no man can tear apart. That means that your very human thoughts do not dictate reality.

But lets agree that precisely because divorce and remarriage is not an option for Christians, the Christian spouses have all the more reason not to drive their spouse to despair.
Have you ever been in this situation, where you can make a comment like this? If so, then I respectfully disagree with you. If not, then you have no room to talk.
🤷
 
The most loving, Christian response is indeed to forgive and accept the adulterous spouse back, but this level of forgiveness is not required of the wronged spouse.

.
Forgiveness is a Christian duty, and our salvation depends on it according to the New Testament. Would you not agree?
However, thereby not said anyone should live with an unrepenting spouse. Its really all about that. I suppose betraying one’s spouse is like one of the worst things a person can do… to him/herself. I suppose many have become sick mentally or physically with guilt and self-loathing after waking up with that on the conscience.

I think its important for us all to remember that in the right circumstances, with the right amount of attraction etc. people like you and I can become weak too… None of us are supermen… thats why we need to seriously avoid occasions and relationships that lead to sin.

Remember how Peter betrayed Jesus. I think its in the Bible because we need that… and the person who comitted adultery needs it most, because it brings hope to those who are crushed by contrition.
 
Have you ever been in this situation, where you can make a comment like this? If so, then I respectfully disagree with you. If not, then you have no room to talk.
🤷
You are right, I have no room to talk. But the Lord does. And He says what He says. He carried every sin of infidelity up on the cross and knows the horror of it.
My advice is that you just read the New Testament and the Church documents on this topic, and you will see that they make sense.
Anyway… I think its important to point out that the Church first of all tells us to discern well whom we marry…
 
You are right, I have no room to talk. But the Lord does. And He says what He says. He carried every sin of infidelity up on the cross and knows the horror of it.
My advice is that you just read the New Testament and the Church documents on this topic, and you will see that they make sense.
Anyway… I think its important to point out that the Church first of all tells us to discern well whom we marry…
Ok, Christ said it was a valid reason to divorce. This is the only exception. You can forgive the sin, but the ramifications remain. You can no longer trust your partner. The covenant you made VOWS to, are shattered. There is no more marriage. I have read the New Testament. I have read the law of moses. Many times over throughout my life. Until you have had this happen to you, you really do not know HOW you will react. Religion will be of little help. This cuts right to your soul. I dont know what the statistics are for infidelity in men. but for women who are married for 5 years, there is a 60% chance they Will commit adultery. So guys, be very careful who you choose. Based on personal experience, I would think the number is higher. But that is just me. A guy is almost better off, being single, and joining the Priest hood. Or a monastery. No joke. This also means there are a certain percentage of Catholic couples who are unfaithful. 😦
 
Forgiveness is a Christian duty, and our salvation depends on it according to the New Testament. Would you not agree?
However, thereby not said anyone should live with an unrepenting spouse. Its really all about that. I suppose betraying one’s spouse is like one of the worst things a person can do… to him/herself. I suppose many have become sick mentally or physically with guilt and self-loathing after waking up with that on the conscience.

I think its important for us all to remember that in the right circumstances, with the right amount of attraction etc. people like you and I can become weak too… None of us are supermen… thats why we need to seriously avoid occasions and relationships that lead to sin.

Remember how Peter betrayed Jesus. I think its in the Bible because we need that… and the person who comitted adultery needs it most, because it brings hope to those who are crushed by contrition.
Forgiveness does not mean you have to be a door mat. What about spouses who are abused? Would you have them stay with their abuser, even if it cost them their life? 🤷
 
Ok, Christ said it was a valid reason to divorce. This is the only exception. You can forgive the sin, but the ramifications remain. You can no longer trust your partner. The covenant you made VOWS to, are shattered. There is no more marriage. I have read the New Testament. I have read the law of moses. Many times over throughout my life. Until you have had this happen to you, you really do not know HOW you will react. Religion will be of little help. This cuts right to your soul. I dont know what the statistics are for infidelity in men. but for women who are married for 5 years, there is a 60% chance they Will commit adultery. So guys, be very careful who you choose. Based on personal experience, I would think the number is higher. But that is just me. A guy is almost better off, being single, and joining the Priest hood. Or a monastery. No joke. This also means there are a certain percentage of Catholic couples who are unfaithful. 😦
60% Where did you read that? It sounds like something right out of the famous Kinsey reports which were hopelessly methodologically flawed and intended to make normal people think that “everyone is doing every perversion”… So don’t give me some stupid statistics that is probably fake. You really should know better.

You write you are Catholic, but have you read the Catechism or any Church document on this. I tell you backed by the Church: The covenant is not shattered in case of infidelity, unless there was no marriage to begin with.
Unfaithfulness does not guarantee a decree of nullity at all.

The Church has taught from the beginning that the exception clause: “I tell you if a man divorces his wife, except for in the case of pornea, and remarries, he commits adultery”. this is the verse you refer to and its found in Matthew’s Gospel. The greek word pornea can mean incestuous relationship, illicit marriage, fornication, prostitution, and adultery. The Church, who wrote the Gospels and sees this verse in context of the rest of the New Testament, has always held that the only possible interpretation lies within the first two options, that is, incestuos relationship (too close blood relations or blood-affiliation relationships are also causes for invalidity of marriage today) or illicit marriage (that is invalid marriage because of impediments, previous bonds, insanity, being forced etc).

When you see what Christ and Paul say about marriage all though the New Testament its very clear that divorce and remarriage because of infidelity is not within the thoughts that Christ had on marriage. He shows us that he has restored us to a state where the rules from the beginning apply. He does away with divorce letters.
After His words its clear that the apostles said: “Ugh, if this is really how it is - that one is bound in marriage much more than eg. rabbis Shamai and Hillel said - then who would ever wanna get married?”

Look, its all not about feelings. This is what the Church teaches, and as a Catholic you ought to understand why that is. It makes total sense to me and I am a convert who grew up in a church where people marry and remarry for every private reason, while interpreting Scripture in the east and west as we say here.

I have stated that one may well wish to seperate from an unfaithful spouse, and that is OKAY. I probably would too, unless he was so sorry like I have never seen anyone so sorry, but the validity of marriage is determined when you marry, not later… and its not suddenly invalid if a spouse after 15 years falls into temptation after a party with his colleagues.
Please try to understand the wisdom of the Church.
 
Ok, Christ said it was a valid reason to divorce. This is the only exception. You can forgive the sin, but the ramifications remain. You can no longer trust your partner. The covenant you made VOWS to, are shattered. There is no more marriage. I have read the New Testament. I have read the law of moses. Many times over throughout my life. Until you have had this happen to you, you really do not know HOW you will react. Religion will be of little help. This cuts right to your soul. I dont know what the statistics are for infidelity in men. but for women who are married for 5 years, there is a 60% chance they Will commit adultery. So guys, be very careful who you choose. Based on personal experience, I would think the number is higher. But that is just me. A guy is almost better off, being single, and joining the Priest hood. Or a monastery. No joke. This also means there are a certain percentage of Catholic couples who are unfaithful. 😦
so are you saying that the Sacrament of Marriage is broken if adultery occurs? I know for a fact that the Church has never taught this.
 
60% Where did you read that? It sounds like something right out of the famous Kinsey reports which were hopelessly methodologically flawed and intended to make normal people think that “everyone is doing every perversion”… So don’t give me some stupid statistics that is probably fake. You really should know better.

You write you are Catholic, but have you read the Catechism or any Church document on this. I tell you backed by the Church: The covenant is not shattered in case of infidelity, unless there was no marriage to begin with.
Unfaithfulness does not guarantee a decree of nullity at all.

The Church has taught from the beginning that the exception clause: “I tell you if a man divorces his wife, except for in the case of pornea, and remarries, he commits adultery”. this is the verse you refer to and its found in Matthew’s Gospel. The greek word pornea can mean incestuous relationship, illicit marriage, fornication, prostitution, and adultery. The Church, who wrote the Gospels and sees this verse in context of the rest of the New Testament, has always held that the only possible interpretation lies within the first two options, that is, incestuos relationship (too close blood relations or blood-affiliation relationships are also causes for invalidity of marriage today) or illicit marriage (that is invalid marriage because of impediments, previous bonds, insanity, being forced etc).

When you see what Christ and Paul say about marriage all though the New Testament its very clear that divorce and remarriage because of infidelity is not within the thoughts that Christ had on marriage. He shows us that he has restored us to a state where the rules from the beginning apply. He does away with divorce letters.
After His words its clear that the apostles said: “Ugh, if this is really how it is - that one is bound in marriage much more than eg. rabbis Shamai and Hillel said - then who would ever wanna get married?”

Look, its all not about feelings. This is what the Church teaches, and as a Catholic you ought to understand why that is. It makes total sense to me and I am a convert who grew up in a church where people marry and remarry for every private reason, while interpreting Scripture in the east and west as we say here.

I have stated that one may well wish to seperate from an unfaithful spouse, and that is OKAY. I probably would too, unless he was so sorry like I have never seen anyone so sorry, but the validity of marriage is determined when you marry, not later… and its not suddenly invalid if a spouse after 15 years falls into temptation after a party with his colleagues.
Please try to understand the wisdom of the Church.
What an excellent, could-not-be-any-clearer post! I hope it helps benidict sort this one out on marriage, one of a few misunderstandings he has of Church teachings.

In fact, there are quite a few posters who take pot shots on the Church stand on divorce vis-à-vis annulment, jumping into hasty conclusions that the Church has changed, which is false. The first pre-supposes a valid marriage; hence, the Church does not recognize it could be torn or made asunder. The second is premised on an invalid marriage to begin with, or marriage entered under fraudulent grounds. This is not to mean that the Church could not do a better job in its pastoral care on the specific issue of failing or failed marriages. The number of divorced Catholics is a scandal. The Church recognizes the current crisis of marriages today, the reason of a pre-Cana requirement before couples can undergo the sacrament of matrimony.

Anyway, you are indeed a CAF treasure, GraceDK.
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so are you saying that the Sacrament of Marriage is broken if adultery occurs? I know for a fact that the Church has never taught this.
Adultery is the breaking of the covenant of Marriage. there is no way around this. No matter how you twist this with cannon law.
 
Adultery is the breaking of the covenant of Marriage. there is no way around this. No matter how you twist this with cannon law.
The Church says it’s not. If you’re Catholic as you claim, then you’ll consent to the Sacred Deposits of the faith regarding this teaching.

You’re translating a Greek word to make it mean ‘adultery’ in that verse btw. Protestants do it all the time to give themselves an excuse to remarry.
 
What an excellent, could-not-be-any-clearer post! I hope it helps benidict sort this one out on marriage, one of a few misunderstandings he has of Church teachings.

In fact, there are quite a few posters who take pot shots on the Church stand on divorce vis-à-vis annulment, jumping into hasty conclusions that the Church has changed, which is false. The first pre-supposes a valid marriage; hence, the Church does not recognize it could be torn or made asunder. The second is premised on an invalid marriage to begin with, or marriage entered under fraudulent grounds. This is not to mean that the Church could not do a better job in its pastoral care on the specific issue of failing or failed marriages. The number of divorced Catholics is a scandal. The Church recognizes the current crisis of marriages today, the reason of a pre-Cana requirement before couples can undergo the sacrament of matrimony.

Anyway, you are indeed a CAF treasure, GraceDK.
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Misunderstandings, or trying to work thru the double speak of the Vatican? 🤷
 
The Church says it’s not. If you’re Catholic as you claim, then you’ll consent to the Sacred Deposits of the faith regarding this teaching.

You’re translating a Greek word to make it mean ‘adultery’ in that verse btw. Protestants do it all the time to give themselves an excuse to remarry.
You and others can keep questioning my Catholocism. I believe this is against forum rules. Its a cheap insult, since you have no good points. I am sure there are others who agree with my position. But please continue. I am currently finding alot wrong with our Teachings, and I am investigating our moral theology point by point. I am finding them wanting in many areas. I will not leave the Church, but I will dissassociate my self from the congregation. I also receive personal messages from those that are too traumatized to speak their objections, because of their upbringing, and the traumatizing views ingrained into them by posters like yourself and others. I speak for them. Fear those who Fear you questioning. but…I dont fear YOU at all.
 
You and others can keep questioning my Catholocism. I believe this is against forum rules. Its a cheap insult, since you have no good points. I am sure there are others who agree with my position. But please continue.
I never questioned anything. If you claim you are then consent to the clear Dogmas of the faith. Or else you’re ‘really’ not in your heart are you. You’re picking and choosing.

You do alot of talking but show me one Church document stating that adultery within a valid Marriage is a reason to divorce.
 
If you’re Catholic as you claim,

Really?! 🤷
Yes, if you’re Catholic as you claim. It’s a phrase to get you to think about what you’re saying. So the question is, if you are Catholic as you claim, then why are you going against what the Church teaches and leading the OP astray with your own personal opinions?
 
Yes, if you’re Catholic as you claim. It’s a phrase to get you to think about what you’re saying. So the question is, if you are Catholic as you claim, then why are you going against what the Church teaches and leading the OP astray with your own personal opinions?
Read the OP. I think your getting off topic. State YOUR opinion, and start another thread so we can debate this. Id love to.
 
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