Do you think that the Novus Ordo will ever be abolished?

[Cat]

I can’t believe you’re still arguing about this.

I just came back from a Protestant (Baptist) funeral for an elderly lady, a friend from my childhood.

I can assure you that the most LIBERAL, ABUSIVE NO Mass in the world is still light-years away from the typical Protestant “worship service.”

Those of you who are worried that the Holy Mass is becoming too “Protestant” don’t know what you’re talking about. You have absolutely nothing to fear. The most “Protestant-sounding” hymn that you can name (Lord of the Dance? Gather Us In? your choice?) is still so Catholic that most Protestants would refuse to sing it, and the music style is so “oldie” that most Protestants would snicker behind their hands at our old-fashioned ways.

What is actually happening is that the Protestants are moving further and further away from the Holy Mass, and what is being done now doesn’t resemble any form of traditional or historical church service. It’s sad. And what’s even sadder is that these non-churches are growing by the thousands.

 

[bear06]

The only ones who want to see the TC forum abolished are the ones who want one sided discussions. They don’t want (name removed by moderator)ut from anyone with traditional views.

You’re missing the point. They don’t mind traditionals views. They’re not too happy with radical traditionalist views. Those are the people shooting themselves and you in the foot.

 

[bear06]

Yeah, I can totally relate. Many liberals in the L& S forum have totally turned me off of the Novus Ordo. But then I try to remember that it’s the Holy Mass, not the personalitites here that matter.

Right. Lumping is bad. Down with lumping.

 

[AJV]

I can’t believe you’re still arguing about this.

I just came back from a Protestant (Baptist) funeral for an elderly lady, a friend from my childhood.

I can assure you that the most LIBERAL, ABUSIVE NO Mass in the world is still light-years away from the typical Protestant “worship service.”

I think what most people fail to qualify when they use “Protestant” is that they mean the mainstream, liturgical (or semi-liturgical) sects - Anglicans, Lutherans, some Presbyterians (don’t include Paisley in there!), some Methodists. I think I remember reading even about some Pentecostal bishops who thought Catholic vesture looked spiffy enough to copy.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

You’re missing the point. They don’t mind traditionals views. They’re not too happy with radical traditionalist views. Those are the people shooting themselves and you in the foot.

Agreed. The acrimony from that section of the community gets unbearable at times.

Now to getting back to the thread at hand. No. The Ordinary Form will never be abolished. I think Rome will bring it back to the way it should of been before the “progressives” got a hold of it.

In my parish, the Ordinary Form is:

1. 
   *]Said Ad Orientum.
   *]Chant is often used for the Gloria, Sanctus, and Angus Dei (priest dependent)
   *]Latin is used (again priest dependent) for the Eucharistic Prayers.
   *]Only organ music except for the occasional “Orchestral Mass” which uses symphonic instruments.
   *]Communion on the tongue at the altar rail.
   *]Exclusive use if Altar Boys.

 

[MH84]

What is actually happening is that the Protestants are moving further and further away from the Holy Mass, and what is being done now doesn’t resemble any form of traditional or historical church service. It’s sad. And what’s even sadder is that these non-churches are growing by the thousands.

I agree, but at least they Christian. Radical Islam and atheism growing by the thousands is troubling.

 

[BobP123]

Bullies are more like it. But many of them, I do not see their posts unless they are quoted by others.

It is not quite as bad as it was on another forum where a “traditionalist” even threatened me with lawsuits because I stood up to him.

Well, if I had posted more than 40,000 times on CA, I would consider it lucky if I only got threatened once.

for someone who has over 40,000 posts, do you think it might be possible that you may have dominated some threads in the past? Just curious.

How about the others who’ve wasted half of their posts on bashing SSPX?

 

[BobP123]

I agree, but at least they Christian. Radical Islam and atheism growing by the thousands is troubling.

That’s an understatement. It’s too bad not everyone lives near a mosque to find this out first hand even in politically-conservative areas.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

You are endorsing offenses to God in the name of mental trappings?

Violations of the sacred of the liturgy are abuses. The Vatican has documents on liturgical abuses. We should not compromise our sacred traditions to bring in the Protestants. We should work harder on converting them. It is the grace of God that will convert them, not the abuses you mention.

I am sure liturgical dancers are offensive to God. Unless it is King David, of course.

However schism is also an offence to God, and divisions in Christianity seriously weaken the Church’s ability to preach to the rest of the world.

Now if Pope Benedict, who is the person in proper authority, decided that, as the price of getting the Anglicans back into the Church, liturgical dance would be celebrated, I would accept that, as long as it was clearly understood that this was an extraordinary compromise of somthign that, though in the last analysis is not essential to the faith, is nevetheless very important.

However, in fact we’ve had liturgical dancers. Admittedly only a few of them, in crazier areas such as California. However it hasn’t produced reunion. So substantially I agree with you. However, in charity to the priests who organised those services, you could say that maybe the gesture was necessary. You cannot be rejected until you make an advance.

 

[jabelltulsa]

We should not compromise our sacred traditions to bring in the Protestants. We should work harder on converting them. It is the grace of God that will convert them, not the abuses you mention.

I am reminded of what it took to bring us the Mass. How many died and were persecuted so that we can have the Mass. This is why I love the TLM. Not nearly the number of abuses, and many saints throughout the centuries have said the TLM,

I believe the NO is valid, because Rome says so. It will not be abolished, ***because ***it is valid. However, I would hope that any liturgical abuse is handled strictly and swiftly considering all the abuse of it.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I believe the NO is valid, because Rome says so. It will not be abolished, ***because ***it is valid. However, I would hope that any liturgical abuse is handled strictly and swiftly considering all the abuse of it.

Full immersion baptism, communion under both kinds, public confession of sins, marriages “in the fields”, ordination of Popes by acclaim, permanent deacons, are all perfectly valid, but have at various times been abolished or restricted.
NO I think will be abolished by the next council, though that may well not be in my lifetime. A new rite will be promulaged, which will be much closer to the Tridentine, but not identical with it.

 

[BobP123]

It will not be abolished, because it is valid.

Need one be reminded that Pope Leo XIII did a study and proceeded to invalidate the Anglican Rite and did so retroactively?

A good book on this Rite was written by Fr Paul Trinchard, *The Abbott and Me on Liturgy. *

 

[jabelltulsa]

which will be much closer to the Tridentine, but not identical with it.

Reading your’s and Bob’s post made me think again about this, and I am mistaken. It is quite possible that the NO could be abolished. Thanks for posting that.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Those “few” dominate the conversation with their rhetoric. So, essentially, yes

We would do well to not participate in any online forum activities anywhere then.

The whole of the online world is a collection of vocal minorities - those who are of the income age and education to be online.

I don’t believe the discussion of topics is divisive - really it just brings out divisions that are already there. What is problematic in some forums is rule enforcement and moderation. When it is made clear that these forums are not the place to make comments such as "If you don’t believe _____ you are a heretic and can go to the dogs!"

Not talking about our disagreements doesn’t make them go away. Talking about them with Christian charity, does not make it worse.

 

[bear06]

How about the others who’ve wasted half of their posts on bashing SSPX?

Who says that’s a waste?! Somebody has to keep those extolling the SSPX in check.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I imagine that the NO, as we know it, will disappear. Something closer to the Mass envisioned by V2 will come up. There are too many of us that would be lost at the TLM.I have gone to one. It is beautiful. I prefer the NO.

On second thought, perhaps the NO, and the NO parishes, will look something like the Anglican Use parishes.

Personally, I have no idea what is going to happen. The life and future of the Church are in the hands and guidance of the Holy Spirit. To begin to even guess what God has in store for His Church is near impossible. All any of us can do is pray that whatever the changes He sees fit, ALL Catholics will love and accept it.

BTW- I veil, wear skirts, and am VERY orthodox in my opinions regarding The Faith.

 

[AJV]

Need one be reminded that Pope Leo XIII did a study and proceeded to invalidate the Anglican Rite and did so retroactively?

A good book on this Rite was written by Fr Paul Trinchard, *The Abbott and Me on Liturgy. *

Retroactively? Which of his predecessors held it was valid?

For an opinion already prevalent, confirmed more than once by the action and constant practice of the Church, maintained that when in England, shortly after it was rent from the center of Christian Unity, a new rite for conferring Holy Orders was publicly introduced under Edward VI, the true Sacrament of Order as instituted by Christ lapsed, and with it the hierarchical succession.

For some time, however, and in these last years especially, a controversy has sprung up as to whether the Sacred Orders conferred according to the Edwardine Ordinal possessed the nature and effect of a Sacrament, those in favor of the absolute validity, or of a doubtful validity, being not only certain Anglican writers, but some few Catholics, chiefly non-English.

If there is anything as biased and one sided, it’s Fr. Trinchard’s works on the NO. He totally ignores the fact that Gasquet would have regarded as redeeming several features of the NO.

 

[thedavidwilson]

1. Traditional Seminaries and religious communities overflowing with members.
2. NO seminaries and more liberal diocese having to import priests and seminarians due to the lack of interest.
3. NO families using birth control and politicians not fighting against abortion.
4. Traditional familes having 5-10 kids some of which actually become priests religious.
5. Converts, reverts and non-catholics drawn to the beauty of the Latin Mass.

1+2+3+4 = Within 50 years the Extraordinary form of the Latin Rite will be a prevelant and “Extraordinary” Eucharistic Ministers.

50 years is how long it will take the current batch of seminarians to become bishops and cardinals.

If it was OK to change a Mass that had existed for 1500 years into the NO then it should be OK to change it back.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

the post vii changes to the mass is seen by the pope and many faithful to be a radical departure from the organic development of the liturgy which typified previous liturgical reformations.

B16 wouldn’t have written summorum pontificum otherwise. plus we see in tradition that latin and gregorian chant are proper to the roman rite–something basically absent from the ordinary form (with few exceptions). also, the ad orientem posture of the priest will likely become more common.

i would say the all vernacular novus ordo devoid of sacred music will be abolished. what i think will happen is that the extraordinary form of the mass will inspire organic changes to the ordinary form and vice versa until we have a liturgy where our hearts and heads are fully participating.

 

[havemercy]

See, I find this statement to be highly insulting to the mass that most Catholics attend at present.

Take it up with Archbishop Bugnini, his consilium, and Pope Paul VI.

Seriously.