Do you think that the Novus Ordo will ever be abolished?

[thedavidwilson]

I have been told that I am very “all about the rules”, but some of the posts on here are just taking the cake.
I used to be uber-traditional, but constantly telling people that they were wrong about this, that and the other just got exhausting. I don’t know how some of you do it.
When I came to terms with the fact that it was what I was doing, and not what I was saying, that was making people stop and talk to me that I realized the immense joy there is living a Christian life and attracting people to you because you are living as Christ commanded. It was then, when people saw I actually lived what I preached that I was able to talk to them.

I walk by the sidewalk preacher on campus three times a week because he, in my opinion, has no right to be there yelling at us. Why is he not living the quiet life of a good Christian and influencing those around him with his actions?

How do parents teach their children proper behavior? The parents model it. How do young adults learn what a healthy relationship is? It was modeled by their parents. Sure, there was probably a discussion, but it was most likely based on the child seeing what was right and asking about it.

Yes you should live the Christian life but you must preach it as well. The children learn by example from the parents but they also learn from what the parents actively teach them as well. The purpose of the sermon is for the Church to impart the Church’s and Christ’s teachings. If you are receiving a watered down version of this or none of this you will grow up in the Church not knowing what it means to be Catholic. That is why we have 80-96% Catholic birth control use in the US.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I do not feel I am more Catholic. I am a sinner. Latin Mass parishes tend to represent the hard issues of the faith to its parishoners.

The people at a parish should be a secondary reason for attending. You choose a parish on how well it represents and teaches the teachings of the Church. If you have a priest who does not get on the pulpit and say that things such as birth control, self abuse and homosexuality are mortals sins then there is a problem. We go to the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass to be with God not for a social gathering. This has been true since the early days of the Church. The socializing is important but should be reseved for the coffee donuts afterwards. A good measure of a parish is how many people go to confession and how many people remain seated during communion. At my parish there is a line at the confessional before every Mass and until the Gospel is read when confessions have to stop. I have been in many NO parishes and I have never seen this.

I routinely hear my priest preach on the above matters. In fact, we have to have a shorter mass tomorrow because my pastor has to leave to go give a parish mission. All I will say is that he is a highly regarded preacher who is one of the most orthodox priests I know, but he… gasp… does a Charismatic Mass every Sunday! And that’s the one I go to! gasp! My children will grow up to reject the faith, use ABC, be gay, abort and a whole plethora of other things because I don’t take them to a TLM! Please. You cannot blame the “failure” of American Catholicism solely on the NO. There are other factors that have contributed, but it is not the entire fault of the NO.

As for your confession comment. We have so many people going to confession that we offer it for 2 hours every Saturday, in addition to before every Mass. Mass has started late so Father could hear everyone’s confessions. Yep, we don’t start Mass until every last person in that line has gone to confession. You START Mass before confessions are done? Aren’t people missing the Liturgy of the Word to stand in line for Confession? How is that right?

Anyway- Father reminds us at every Mass that we are not receive if we are not in a state of Grace.

What do you think about that?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Yes you should live the Christian life but you must preach it as well. The children learn by example from the parents but they also learn from what the parents actively teach them as well. The purpose of the sermon is for the Church to impart the Church’s and Christ’s teachings. If you are receiving a watered down version of this or none of this you will grow up in the Church not knowing what it means to be Catholic. That is why we have 80-96% Catholic birth control use in the US.

Again, a Catechism issue stemming from many other things that cannot be solely placed on the shoulders of the NO.

 

[Aramis]

And the Tridentine Mass will come back completely?

Personally, I think both will be replaced by a Roman Church Council sometime in the 2200’s…

and yes, I’m serious.

 

[thedavidwilson]

I routinely hear my priest preach on the above matters. In fact, we have to have a shorter mass tomorrow because my pastor has to leave to go give a parish mission. All I will say is that he is a highly regarded preacher who is one of the most orthodox priests I know, but he… gasp… does a Charismatic Mass every Sunday! And that’s the one I go to! gasp! My children will grow up to reject the faith, use ABC, be gay, abort and a whole plethora of other things because I don’t take them to a TLM! Please. You cannot blame the “failure” of American Catholicism solely on the NO. There are other factors that have contributed, but it is not the entire fault of the NO.

As for your confession comment. We have so many people going to confession that we offer it for 2 hours every Saturday, in addition to before every Mass. Mass has started late so Father could hear everyone’s confessions. Yep, we don’t start Mass until every last person in that line has gone to confession. You START Mass before confessions are done? Aren’t people missing the Liturgy of the Word to stand in line for Confession? How is that right?

Anyway- Father reminds us at every Mass that we are not receive if we are not in a state of Grace.

What do you think about that?

Sounds like you have a very fine parish. We need more Catholic parishes like it. God bless.

 

[bear06]

I take offense to that. My husband and I attend the NO Mass, use NFP and have discussed having a large family.
DO NOT assume that just because someone attends the NO Mass that s/he is someone less Catholic.

It really makes no difference whether a family is “traditional” or just plain old faithful. If a family is faithful and God wills it there will probably be a large family/ I know literally hundreds of families with 5 or more children and the common denominator is faithfulness to the teachings of the Church not necessarily being a traditionalist.

 

[bear06]

Are you all NO families? Are you the majority of NO families? No.

The majority of Catholics in the US either use or condone the use of birth control. Many of the are pro choice like Pelosi and Kerry. You will find far fewer of these people in more traditional Churches.

Sorry, I still know of far more “Novus Ordo” loving families that have 5+ children than traditionalists simply because there’s more of us. Again, faithfulness is the key.

 

[bear06]

Really? The majority? Have you polled each and every NO family in the world, or are you making a sweeping judgment of American NO families?

My husband applied to some law schools out in Arizona, and I believe one is Tucson. I was excited when I saw the Latin mass community there. But now, I don’t think I want to be a part of such a group, esp. if it is filled with people like you who feel that they are “more Catholic” because they attend the TLM or whatever reasons you seem to have come up with about TLM Catholics being better than NO Catholics.

If the Latin Mass is something you’re interested in, don’t let some of the people on the forums deter yout. I can attest that not everyone there is like them. As with most parishes, the most vocal are usually the most annoying.l:shrug:

 

[paramedicgirl]

How so? These are my personal observations.

Many of our parishers are in their 20’s or college students. On the whole they have begun to experience life and have found the happy clappy masses of the NO not to be a refuge from the pagan world. They like the structure, the quiet and the reverence of the Latin Mass. The latin mass movement is largely a youth movement. That is why the traditional seminaries and convents are growing and the more liberal ones are struggling. I think in 10 years you will see a surge in the numbers of priests as these kids graduate from seminary.

I’m of the opinion that the Holy Spirit is the driving force behind the youth’s interest and attraction to the Tridentine Mass. It is not a fad. God is good, and He will prevail. If He wants the Novus Ordo (as most of us know it) gone, it will be gone.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I do not feel I am more Catholic. I am a sinner. Latin Mass parishes tend to represent the hard issues of the faith to its parishoners.

The people at a parish should be a secondary reason for attending. You choose a parish on how well it represents and teaches the teachings of the Church. If you have a priest who does not get on the pulpit and say that things such as birth control, self abuse and homosexuality are mortals sins then there is a problem. We go to the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass to be with God not for a social gathering. This has been true since the early days of the Church. The socializing is important but should be reseved for the coffee donuts afterwards. A good measure of a parish is how many people go to confession and how many people remain seated during communion. At my parish there is a line at the confessional before every Mass and until the Gospel is read when confessions have to stop. I have been in many NO parishes and I have never seen this.

I just moved to a city where I can go to a TLM every Sunday. I finally get to hear good Catholic sermons that really instruct the faithful on how to live a Catholic life. I am so glad to leave behind the watered down, feel good homilies that were so generic it was like reading a horoscope.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Really? The majority? Have you polled each and every NO family in the world, or are you making a sweeping judgment of American NO families?

My husband applied to some law schools out in Arizona, and I believe one is Tucson. I was excited when I saw the Latin mass community there. But now, I don’t think I want to be a part of such a group, esp. if it is filled with people like you who feel that they are “more Catholic” because they attend the TLM or whatever reasons you seem to have come up with about TLM Catholics being better than NO Catholics.

You can’t be serious that you would be turned off to a worship style given the stances of an onliner (which by its nature will always be coming from a member of a distinctive minority).

Check them out and give them a shot for what they are - not for what is or is not your experience with folks online, myself included.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I just moved to a city where I can go to a TLM every Sunday. I finally get to hear good Catholic sermons that really instruct the faithful on how to live a Catholic life. I am so glad to leave behind the watered down, feel good homilies that were so generic it was like reading a horoscope.

Baring in mind that not every homilist in the TLM community will have a golden tongue and by its very nature alone the NO homilist will not always be insipid or watered down.

The correlation is not strictly ritual.

I love, for example, the sermons of Fr. Wolfe, FSSP at www.audiosancto.com. I don’t take for granted every TLM will have such a well delivered sermon, or that no NO Mass would have something of equal quality. The Dominicans who serve the parish I sometimes attend weekday Mass at are no slouches - they deliver every time in the context of a traditionally celebrated NO.

On the other hand, the one priest willing to celebrate the TLM in this city years ago in an indult setting (the 2pm Latin “Idult Mass”, it seems like only yesterday - anyone remember that?)… Well that priest was a pastor at the “gayest urban parish” in the gentrified old section of the city. For reasons about which I will not speculate, he seemed to welcome the opportunity for his choir to chant and his vestments to shine… His sermons were… unmemorable.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I’m of the opinion that the Holy Spirit is the driving force behind the youth’s interest and attraction to the Tridentine Mass. It is not a fad.

This I totally agree with. I find it no accident that there are a great many young men and women - and vocations to priestly religious and family life - attracted to TLM parishes.

The TLM parish in this city has already had well over 15 priestly vocations enter formation in different communities. The number of young families working on thier third, fourth or fifth kid is notable.

The number of converts is not negligable.

Additionally, it can truly be said that there are 20somethings that did grow up with this rite! They didn’t gravitate towards it - they were raised in it.

Yes dear brothers and sisters, the first generation of children since Vatican II who were raised AFTER Vatican II are becoming adults after a childhood of Tridentine Masses. Between TLM indult parishes - and SSPX chapels too - that have been around for 5-10-15-20+ years, there are an increasing number of young men and women (much to the horror of +Trautman et al) who HAVE been reared in this rite. For an extreme but growing minority in the US, this is already the only Mass they have ever attended…

Things are lookin’ up.

 

[AJV]

So how does one invalidate something that wasn’t valid in the first place? Perhaps you can help them rewrite the history books?

He confirmed definitively that it wasn’t valid. As a number of historical documents will tell you, the ordinal NEVER accepted by his precedessors. Do you know of any Anglican clergy who upon entering the Church weren’t re-ordained prior to the Bull?

And secondly, he couldn’t invalidate the deficient Anglican communion service if the priests were validly ordained because it contains the requisite form. As long as they had the correct intention, it would be valid.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Aren’t people missing the Liturgy of the Word to stand in line for Confession? How is that right?

The important thing is to be physically present where the Mass is celebrated. Confessions, or rosaries during Mass, are legitimate. As long as you know that the Word is there, you don’t have to understand it for yourself. I used to have to attend a Mass in Arabic. There was literally only one word I could follow - when the priest held up the host and said “hada …”, Arabic for “this is”.

 

[mgrfin]

I hope not. The idea behind the changes in VII were good and had good motives. Mass in the vernacular that is beautiful is in my mind, the ideal. It can be done amazingly. Just visit any high church Anglican parish to see how it should be done.

I do think beautiful English should be used and guitars and hippy music should be banned from the Mass. It should be solemn and sacred and the music, incense etc should reflect the importance of the occasion. Bring back chant and the ancient hymns. Wighty theology is in them. I can’t stand the trite ditties from the 70’s and 80’s.

Mel

Well, Anglicans seem to tell us how wonderful they do their services.

I grew up with the Latin Mass, and I go back to it because I don’t believe we as Catholics do the revised Liturgy truly well. I don’t think we have the music to match what is actually happening there.

I also favor Latin because I people it has a power, which English does not have.

I don’t believe that the Latin Mass will be completely restored, to replace the vernacular, but for those who want it, it should be there.

peace

 

[BobP123]

He confirmed definitively that it wasn’t valid. As a number of historical documents will tell you, the ordinal NEVER accepted by his precedessors. Do you know of any Anglican clergy who upon entering the Church weren’t re-ordained prior to the Bull?

And secondly, he couldn’t invalidate the deficient Anglican communion service if the priests were validly ordained because it contains the requisite form. As long as they had the correct intention, it would be valid.

I agree with that assessment. But why did he (and previous Popes) wait so long before making this confirmation? Hadn’t a lot of faithful Catholics been led astray thinking it was valid all along?

 

[Brenda_V]

Are you all NO families? Are you the majority of NO families? No.

The majority of Catholics in the US either use or condone the use of birth control. Many of the are pro choice like Pelosi and Kerry. You will find far fewer of these people in more traditional Churches.

I have to take you to task here - the Pelosis and Kerrys of the world are not the “majority of Catholics”. They are politicians and as(oh, boy, I am going to make a sweeping statement here!) they tend to compromise in a bad way their values or they were never taught the truth. There are plenty of everyday Catholics like them but the tide is turning and not all who are becoming more faithful want the EF, they want the OF celebrated the way it is supposed to be like it is in my Parish and some others who have posted in this thread - I believe that this is a trend as well so, to answer the OP, no I don’t think the NO now called the OF (ordinary form) will go away, I think it will be celebrated more and more the way it is supposed to be though.

btw Catholic=Christian

Just wanted to address this little piece of information, yes, Catholic=Christian but for many of us living in highly protestant communities we use the two together to emphasize that we are indeed Christian just like our protestant brethren (who tend to think we are pagans!) It also helps to chatechise our youngsters by letting them know that they to are Christians so when they encounter their peers who are taught to “evangelize and/or prostheletyze” they are prepared to defend their faith.

I do not feel I am more Catholic. I am a sinner. Latin Mass parishes tend to represent the hard issues of the faith to its parishoners.

Since I don’t have a Latin Mass parish near me I have no personal knowledge as to the veracity of this statement but will say that since you do, your experience will suffice for me to say that in your area this is true. In my Parish we have many large families, as a block we tend to vote pro-life, we have wonderful homilies on the evils of abortion, sexual sins and other of the Cardinal sins. We are a very active Parish in many ways in our community, NFP is encouraged if one has a serious reason for avoiding a pregnancy, confessions are before every weekday Mass, three times on Saturdays and once on Sundays. During Advent and Lent the number of hours Confessions are available is nearly doubled.

My Parish is large for a number of reasons, one being those who do not belong to it geographically are seeking an orthodox one. We celebrate the OF and when the Motu came out we were informed that Monsignor did not have the time to learn the proper way to say the EF and his Latin is from high school so is very rusty. He did encourage those who wished to attend the EF to go to the Mass that has been offered about 1/2 an hour away for the last 10 or so years.

Brenda V.

 

[thedavidwilson]

I have to take you to task here - the Pelosis and Kerrys of the world are not the “majority of Catholics”.
Brenda V.

I am just going off of what the Bishops are saying; that 96 percent of Catholics practice birth control which is a mortal sin. If you can show be a study or statistic that says otherwise please do. God bless.

 

[BobP123]

I am just going off of what the Bishops are saying; that 96 percent of Catholics practice birth control which is a mortal sin. If you can show be a study or statistic that says otherwise please do. God bless.

The number varies from culture to culture but I’ll agree that it is pretty high.

Objectively it’s a mortal sin; however many of those Catholics (most of whom don’t attend Mass of any kind) don’t think it’s grave enough to be mortal. But that is no surprise given that the Church in the 60’s had trouble deciding on whether ABC, specifically the new birth control pill, was a grave matter. First, Pope Paul VI’ issued Progressio Populorum, which said ok to limiting the size of families, then he had many moral theologians gathered together mostly agreeing that BCP was ok, and then many priests told their members that Catholics should use their conscience in this regard, etc, etc. HV meant very little to many because their consciences had already been set in stone and they then passed on their own consciences to their own children. I wouldn’t be all surprised if many of those same people now are afraid to go to the TLM only because they might in fact feel guilty about using any birth control measures among other things.

The NO is not just about the liturgy. It’s a new mindset to what constitutes Catholicism. It’s a relaxation of many of the rules prior to Vatican II and how do you go back to making it tougher to be a Catholic? After a couple of generation gaps, the TLM now takes an effort and asks people to go outside their comfort levels. Why should anyone go way out of their way at an inconvenient hour and learn a new language just to get to ridiculed for it by their own pastor and friends? Tough, but I’ll give a lot of credit to those that try it for the greater glory of God.