Do you think that the Novus Ordo will ever be abolished?

[paramedicgirl]

That is the way my parish does it except for the occasional Orchestral Mass (i.e. Violins, woodwinds, and other instruments associated with classical music). This is true for both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Mass (we have both).

In the parish I just left behind, we had a regular band! Clarinet, bass guitar, two six string guitars, bongo drums, a flute and a piano. And boy could they belt out those Marty Haugen tunes. The lyrics to them are still ringing in my ears.

I have finally found sanity and sanctity at an FSSP Mass where the only instrument played is an organ, and that even is infrequent. The High Mass is sung without any instruments, and it’s very beautiful.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I think that has been a common theme since this forum has been started and I knew and stated something to that effect when this forum was started.

From the beginning, there has been a group that has been, albeit erroneously, that the Church has been trying to suppress the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

However, it seen perfectly acceptable by this same group to try to suppress the Ordinary Form of the Mass and get rid of anyone who does not believe in such (including priests and Bishops).

Maybe a thread about abolishing this sub-forum is needed.

You really seem to have an agenda here. You are free to not participate in the TC forum, you know. No one is forcing you to come here. Will you only rest when you have your way and get rid of all the Traditional Catholics at CAF?

 

[bear06]

You are underestimating the power of the Holy Spirit. If God wants organ music as the sole accompaniment to the choir, He will find a way for it to happen.

Unfortunately, you’re not taking into account free will. The Holy Spirit wants us all to be totally faithful in all things. That said, there will always be sinners.

However, we have organ as the sole accompaniment at our church so there is hope! I personally think that teens are the most underestimated crowd. Not that I’m a teen anymore but I’ve always loved modern music. That said, can’t stand it at Mass and even when I was a teen I like going to the “rich” parish where they had an awesome polyphonic choir playing those ever awe-inspiring, timeless tunes.

 

[bear06]

Well, I see a lot of such themes across all subfora and it looks like over 40,000 of “them” posts from one poster alone more than surpass the sum of all the “us” posts put together.

Would you drop the “40,000 post” argumentation. It’s lame. You’ll eventually get some new person who talks of you 2,000 plus posts and you’ll say it has nothing to do with anything. Deal with content.

Actually this has been happening since 1962.

 

[bear06]

I think that has been a common theme since this forum has been started and I knew and stated something to that effect when this forum was started.

From the beginning, there has been a group that has been, albeit erroneously, that the Church has been trying to suppress the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

However, it seen perfectly acceptable by this same group to try to suppress the Ordinary Form of the Mass and get rid of anyone who does not believe in such (including priests and Bishops).

Maybe a thread about abolishing this sub-forum is needed.

I think this forum would be dandy if they’d just limit it to talking about Traditional Catholicism. I don’t think it needs to be abolished. Again, there are some here that actually want to talk about Traditional Catholicism and not the Novus Ordo. I think you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water because you’re frustrated with the annoying.

 

[bear06]

In the parish I just left behind, we had a regular band! Clarinet, bass guitar, two six string guitars, bongo drums, a flute and a piano.

What no harmonica? No rain stick? How do you stand it?

 

[Cat]

That is the way my parish does it except for the occasional Orchestral Mass (i.e. Violins, woodwinds, and other instruments associated with classical music). This is true for both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Mass (we have both).

Where do you get the organists?!

The only way I can think of that you would get them is to pay them so well compared to all the other churches that they leave those other churches and come to you.

Should our diocese start doing this? I know of about 20 organists in our city of 100,000. I think about ten of them are registered with our local music club (the oldest music club in the U.S., BTW).

Some would completely refuse to play or even enter a C-c-c-atholic den of iniquity (fundamentalists). Others would consider it if the price was right, but it would have to be pretty darn right!

A lot of those other churches have other amenities–e.g., lots of young children who are part of children’s choirs (usually this is done in the Catholic Schools, from what I have seen). And those same young children are a great recruiting ground for private lessons.

Also–I know an awful lot of Catholics who prefer piano over organ. Of course if the Church declared anathema against the piano, they would just have to suck it up. But I really don’t think the Church is going to ban the piano anytime soon. The Holy Spirit needs raw material to work with–and at the moment, there are very few young children and teens taking organ lessons. I predict (as a fallible human being, not a prophet) that in the future, many churches will lock up the organ except for once a year when they hire (at great cost) a professional organist to come and give a concert, which will be poorly attended.

And considering how few young people learning to play piano in church exist, predict that many pianos will be sold to non-denominational churches, and that many of our Masses will include no instrumental music.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Where do you get the organists?!

The only way I can think of that you would get them is to pay them so well compared to all the other churches that they leave those other churches and come to you.

Should our diocese start doing this? I know of about 20 organists in our city of 100,000. I think about ten of them are registered with our local music club (the oldest music club in the U.S., BTW).

Some would completely refuse to play or even enter a C-c-c-atholic den of iniquity (fundamentalists). Others would consider it if the price was right, but it would have to be pretty darn right!

A lot of those other churches have other amenities–e.g., lots of young children who are part of children’s choirs (usually this is done in the Catholic Schools, from what I have seen). And those same young children are a great recruiting ground for private lessons.

Also–I know an awful lot of Catholics who prefer piano over organ. Of course if the Church declared anathema against the piano, they would just have to suck it up. But I really don’t think the Church is going to ban the piano anytime soon. The Holy Spirit needs raw material to work with–and at the moment, there are very few young children and teens taking organ lessons. I predict (as a fallible human being, not a prophet) that in the future, many churches will lock up the organ except for once a year when they hire (at great cost) a professional organist to come and give a concert, which will be poorly attended.

And considering how few young people learning to play piano in church exist, predict that many pianos will be sold to non-denominational churches, and that many of our Masses will include no instrumental music.

All the parishes I have belonged to have has an organist. They used other instruments rarely at the Masses I have attended. Must be the area you live in.

One parish I belonged to did have a youth band. They did gave guitars, but they also had a violin, cello, flute and clarinet.

The problem with piano is that many who play it are no longer “classically” trained. They were taught using more modern music which does not flow as well. Saying that, I do not think a piano should be used at Mass. In fact, I do not think I have heard “classical symphonic” Mass music (i.e. Beethoven, Mozart, Verdi, etc) that had a piano.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Did you get your Masses mixed up here?

 

[drafdog]

The people on this forum who style themselves as traditionalists are not really traditionalists. They are modernists. Were they truly traditionalists they would be decrying the Tridentine Mass and calling for a return to the Mass in the more traditional koine Greek, or a Mass in Aramaic as was the first Eucharistic celebration.
The church has a long history of liturgical reform. Reform is not wrong; it does not reduce the liturgy in any way. It simply seeks to put the liturgy into a form reflective of the symbols of the culture in which it finds itself. The shift to Latin from Greek was a move to the vernacular of the Roman empire. The current shift to liturgy in the vernacular(s) of each nation is a similar shift. The symbology works for more people and is hence more effective as a prayer for the common Catholic in the pew.
Will the Novus Ordo go the way of the Greek, the Latin, the Aramaic? I firmly hope that we will continue to respond to the changes in culture in order to serve God’s children effectively.

Matthew

 

[thedavidwilson]

The people on this forum who style themselves as traditionalists are not really traditionalists. They are modernists. Were they truly traditionalists they would be decrying the Tridentine Mass and calling for a return to the Mass in the more traditional koine Greek, or a Mass in Aramaic as was the first Eucharistic celebration.
The church has a long history of liturgical reform. Reform is not wrong; it does not reduce the liturgy in any way. It simply seeks to put the liturgy into a form reflective of the symbols of the culture in which it finds itself. The shift to Latin from Greek was a move to the vernacular of the Roman empire. The current shift to liturgy in the vernacular(s) of each nation is a similar shift. The symbology works for more people and is hence more effective as a prayer for the common Catholic in the pew.
Will the Novus Ordo go the way of the Greek, the Latin, the Aramaic? I firmly hope that we will continue to respond to the changes in culture in order to serve God’s children effectively.

Matthew

The church has a long history of ***ORGANIC ***liturgical reform. Small changes made over a long period of time. The drastic changes done in the late 1960’s strike me more of a fad rather than organic change. Remember the Church will be around until the end of time. There is no rush to make these changes. I think with the Chruch you would want to take it slow so that you are sure you are doing the right thing rather than the popular thing at that time.

“I firmly hope that we will continue to respond to the changes in culture in order to serve God’s children effectively.”
This is a classic modernist mindset. Does God conform to your desires? No, it is we who must conform to God’s plan. It is not the Church’s role to respond to the culture. It is the Chruch’s role to convince the Culture to respond to the the teachings of Christ. If we were to respond to the Culture then the Chruch would be proabortion and there would be lesbian priests in same sex partnerships. We are IN this world not OF this world.

btw we still do have masses in greek and aramaic. They reside in the Byzantine and Chaladean rites of the Catholic Church. Latin has been the language of the Church and the Mass has been said in latin since the beginning (esp. after 400 AD). So your analogy is not quite true.

 

[paramedicgirl]

** I predict that in the future,**…many of our Masses will include no instrumental music.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And the Tridentine Mass will come back completely?

No. We had liturgical abuse long before Novus Ordo. I don’t think it would make any difference. Jimmy Akin’s Book Mass Confusion discusses this…

 

[AJV]

The people on this forum who style themselves as traditionalists are not really traditionalists. They are modernists. Were they truly traditionalists they would be decrying the Tridentine Mass and calling for a return to the Mass in the more traditional koine Greek, or a Mass in Aramaic as was the first Eucharistic celebration.

I can’t speak for people on the forum, but I think that while there are those in the Traditional movement that just want to go back to to a particular time period, the proper traditionalist longs for a return to an organic tradition. As opposed to mere antiquarianism

The church has a long history of liturgical reform. Reform is not wrong; it does not reduce the liturgy in any way. It simply seeks to put the liturgy into a form reflective of the symbols of the culture in which it finds itself. The shift to Latin from Greek was a move to the vernacular of the Roman empire. The current shift to liturgy in the vernacular(s) of each nation is a similar shift. The symbology works for more people and is hence more effective as a prayer for the common Catholic in the pew.

Indeed. But if it had simply been the vernacular, do you think that there would be as much fuss raised over it?

Indeed at times there have been large changes in praxis of the Church. However, I’m not sure whether some of them, though large, fully approach the revision of the 60’s, and I don’t think that most approach it in the suddenness and time length of the change
The ones that may have, had a good excuse in that it was when the rite was being formed.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

The people on this forum who style themselves as traditionalists are not really traditionalists. They are modernists. Were they truly traditionalists they would be decrying the Tridentine Mass and calling for a return to the Mass in the more traditional koine Greek, or a Mass in Aramaic as was the first Eucharistic celebration.
The church has a long history of liturgical reform. Reform is not wrong; it does not reduce the liturgy in any way. It simply seeks to put the liturgy into a form reflective of the symbols of the culture in which it finds itself. The shift to Latin from Greek was a move to the vernacular of the Roman empire. The current shift to liturgy in the vernacular(s) of each nation is a similar shift. The symbology works for more people and is hence more effective as a prayer for the common Catholic in the pew.
Will the Novus Ordo go the way of the Greek, the Latin, the Aramaic? I firmly hope that we will continue to respond to the changes in culture in order to serve God’s children effectively.

Matthew

Traditionalists are fully aware that there have been changes to the liturgy over time. The question is whether some of the changes have been organic and/or beneficial (as in the changes which occurred after Vatican II).

Yes, the liturgy did move to Latin. However, notice that it moved to a common liturgical language which was spread throughout the world regardless of the country’s language it was spread to. It did not change to allow the Mass to be celebrated in a multitude of different languages depending on whoever happens to be celebrating the Mass at the time as happened after Vatican II.

 

[Marina14]

And the Tridentine Mass will come back completely?

Through out history, the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church has constantly changed her Liturgy. So sure, no reason to think that this will not happen again. As to whether or not the Tridentine Liturgy will replace it or not, whose to say? That’s up to the Church. Wouldn’t it be more interesting if the Roman Rite went back to the Liturgy she used before 700 AD? Pre-Tridentine. But honestly, I don’t think she will go “back” to anything, she keeps changing forward to shorter Liturgies.

 

[mangy_dog]

The reality is that the Mass has been watered down. The key architect of the new Mass, Archbishop Bugnini, admitted it!

“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.”
L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965.

It can’t be denied that the NO Mass was “stripped” down of its more Catholic elements in order to appeal to protestants. When the Chief architect of the New Mass says it, how can you deny it??

Thank you. This is historical fact. What’s more - that was 1965. If the purpose of “stripping catholicism” from our prayers and our liturgy was so that the protestants would make sort of a “mass convertion” back to the catholic church…I got news for you, 43 years later, on the brink of 2008 - it still hasn’t happened. Protestants are still stuck on the “real stumbling block”…the true and real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist! It is the only factor keeping the NO afloat.
Lets just wait and see how catholics respond to Pope Benedict XVI 's suggestions for catholics to learn a few basic prayers in Latin. I’m sure he has other traditional ideas rolling around in his head.
I read the different threads and topics on this CA website and I’m reminded of all the catholic prophecies…Malachy, Faustina and others - also the words of the Theotokos in Fátima, La Salette, Medjugorje and others…I pray that at least all catholics will be of the same mind and spirit, obeying the Roman Pontiff without second guessing him. That we may never, ever compromise our catholicity for anyone, protestant or otherwise.

Sancte Michael Arcangele, defende nos in proelio…
Sancta Dei Genetrix, ora pro nobis.
O bone Iesu exaudi nos.

 

[Daprato]

I see it that way too. But then I put all the trad bashers who have no point to make on ignore. And that list is getting longer and longer.

You may try the same for NO bashers and we’ll all get along fine.

I don’t see any “trad bashers”(sic) and I don’t have anyone on /ignore. Read through the “Traditional Catholicism” threads though. There is a remarkable amount of whining, labeling of others and worrying about how others are acting – largely it seems at the expense of ignoring how they themselves act.

As I said in another posting, that’s OK though. At least those sorts of posts are concentrated under one forum now for the most part.

 

[AJV]

Thank you. This is historical fact.

The quote isn’t. It’s an inference.

 

[Aramis]

I don’t see any “trad bashers”(sic) and I don’t have anyone on /ignore. Read through the “Traditional Catholicism” threads though. There is a remarkable amount of whining, labeling of others and worrying about how others are acting – largely it seems at the expense of ignoring how they themselves act.

As I said in another posting, that’s OK though. At least those sorts of posts are concentrated under one forum now for the most part.

I suspect BobP refers to persons like myself, who really have no vested interest either way, but object to disobedient borderline-schismatic groups like the SSPX. I have an academic interest in the traditionalist movement.

I neither dislike the OF nor the EF, but neither works for me. (which is why I’m going east), but the overall integrity of the Church matters to me.

I really do believe that the “mistake” of not anathematizing the older forms will not be repeated; further council-ordered reforms will probably anathematize the older forms, as Trent did.