Do you think the organization Roman Catholic Faithful (RCF) is good for the Church?

[Aquinian]

John Higgins:

Seems like a witch hunt to me too.

John

So, you want witches to get off scot-free, huh?

Just so we know, are you against murderer-hunts, rapist-hunts, burglar-hunts, as well?

Aquinian.

 

[Digitonomy]

John Higgins:

We have engaged in a discussion about Roman Catholic Fathiful (RCF)

I assume you mean in these forums. Can you provide a link to the discussion?

 

[John_Higgins]

Aquinian:

So, you want witches to get off scot-free, huh?

No, the concept within the definition of the term is not catching witches but falsely accusing people of witchcraft.

Aquinian:

Just so we know, are you against murderer-hunts, rapist-hunts, burglar-hunts, as well?

Sure, why not? But I’m also against snide-comment-people-hunts too.

So, peace.

John

 

[chicago]

FiremanFrank:

Please show me the proof of this type of reasoning chicago, as I do not believe that this is going to work in this case. These abusers/molesters/dissidents are indignant and uncaring individuals. Read about them on RCF’s website. They couldn’t give a hoot about what you think or want them to do.

I think that the proof is in the lives of the saints. As you seem to note in your own comments about “spiritual conversion”.

Again, I am not saying that we ought not call to task problematic concerns. I merely do not believe that we need to deal with it in the way RCF chooses.

We DON’T NEED a renewal chicago. What we need is a mass spiritual conversion of churchgoers on a drastic scale - so that they might become genuinely Catholic in their beliefs.

Well, gee, what underlies a renewal is continual conversion, no?

And, again, if conversion is the issue, then focus on helping the many laity to grow in their faith rather than spending so much time taking an easy out of attacking those who you find to be dissident (or at least not of your exact viewpoint which, itself, could be in some ways incomplete).

This is war John.

Don’t call me Shirley. My name is Tim.

The spiritual battle lines must be drawn.

Fair enough. But I am not sure that where RCF attempts to draw them is necessarily choosing the right battles.

The key characteristic of Christians is to carry the sword of Truth. Exposing heretics, dissidents, and the homosexual agenda in the priesthood is clearly part of that sword of Truth.

The key characteristic of Christians is firstly joy. Certainly it is joyfulness in the Truth. Yet, the truth must always be proclaimed in merciful love. The manner in which RCF goes about their task doesn’t seem to exhibit this spirit. And, in fact, at times one could probably legitimately challenge whether they are truly even acting in truth.

Accentuate the positive? And what would that positive be chicago?

I think that there is much positive which can be done to help matters and much attractiveness to a life well lived as a joyful Christian without our witness primarily being to run around wielding an angry sword. Again, the lives of the saints seems to show this forth quite well.

That Catholics have become totally de-catechized and no longer know or believe in the basics teachings of their faith?

So, then, kindly teach them something positive about the faith rather than spending time just whining about it and throwing stones at those who you think have failed.

That this type of de-catechization and indifference towards the True Teachings of our faith has caused a direct shortage in the priesthood - a shipwreck in religious vocations?

Again, mere whining. Do something positive, instead, and maybe you’ll help increase vocations. Men and women who might be attracted to such want something to be attracted to, not merely something to fight against.

That because of the wayward and distorted teachings of those disobedient bishops and priests, these “sheep in wolf’s clothing” - that fewer and fewer Catholics now believe that the Body and Blood of our Savior is actually present in the Holy Eucharist?

On the one hand, I don’t necessarily believe that there are many, if any, of these such priests who would in any way deny this belief in the Eucharist. There are some who will emphasize certain genuine aspects more than others, certainly.

Secondly, again, there is much positive which can be done to help promote greater understanding and devotion. Energy most likely better spent than such castigations will effect.

Etc, etc.

(additional whiny emphasis yours)

I could really care less about “attactiveness” chicago. I only desire the Truth. It is the Truth that I desire, and nothing else.

The truth ought to be attractive. If one’s greatest example comes off as being nothing more than unhappy complaint, few will want to follow. As followers of Christ, we must be drawing people to Him through us by giving witness to that joy which is within. Evangelization is a proclamation of the “good news”. If one doesn’t seem happy to be bringing such tidings, but instead is generaly grimly griping, the proclamation of Truth Himself is stifled and undermined.

Sometimes we in the spiritual battlefield NEED a little self-affirmation, as these derelict/predatory priests and bishops have left us almost totally void of any spiritual nourishment.

But the self-affirmation being offered might not be, itself, genuine nourishment which brings about life, but mere feeding of a cancerous condemnation.

(continued)

 

[chicago]

No chicago, I’m talking about the spiritual and physical attack that our children are receiving RIGHT NOW!

You’re missing my point… this is nothing new. The Church is made up of sinners. The weeds grow amoung the wheat. Deal with it!

So, if we learn nothing from our mistakes and allow the same old sins to rear their ugly heads over and over again - then we will have nobody to blame then but ourselves for our crisis of faith. God gave us a brain chicago - we should use it!

I fear that it is the nature of the fallen world which we live in that the same old sins will continually rear their ugly heads again and again, despite the best laid plans of mice and men. Yes, we ought to learn from our mistakes. But sin we will have with us always, at least until the end of the age.

I don’t by it. The “best of intentions” only reduces the degree of the sin of our indifference. But the sin of spiritual slothfulness remains a sin.

A sin which will never be fully eradicated from this earth, no matter how hard we try.

I’ll tell you what John. I sincerely believe that if most of the Catholic people out there share in your general view on things, that our Church isn’t even close to hitting rock bottom yet.

Not even close …

Go take your complaint to John!

For my part, I’ll merely suggest that we already have hit Rock bottom. It occured approximately 2000 years ago, one Friday afternoon. From there, everything is looking generally up,; even if it wavers to rise and fall in various degrees from time to time and place to place.

 

[John_Higgins]

Frank,

The real John agrees with Tim.

John

 

[John_Higgins]

Digitonomy:

I assume you mean in these forums. Can you provide a link to the discussion?

This is the thread that spawned two others:

RCF Thread

John

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

John Higgins:

We have engaged in a discussion about Roman Catholic Fathiful (RCF) established by Stephen Brady of suburban Springfield, Illinois. Does it have value for the Church? Does it do more harm than good?

What do you think?

I don’t know​

Do you think the organization Roman Catholic Faithful (RCF) is good for the Church?

John

As long as it is constructive as well as critical, and doesn’t treat those with whom it disagrees as pariahs - IMO, yes.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

chicago:

Well, actually, yes. I think that we both can and should be something other than abrasive by and large. And I think that such will ultimately produce better results. Given, sometimes one needs to hold someone’s feet to the fire and plainly, but mercifully, call them to task and/or repentance. However, all true genuine and positive renewal in the Church tends to come primarily from joyful Christians. Indeed, this is the key characteristic of Christians. So I think that it is likely much better to place our emphasis on accentuating the positive rather than seeming like whiny, griping, angry Christians all the time. That isn’t ultimately very attractive and tends to turn off more people than draw them to following your mission. Being an “attack dog” tends toward the counterproductive, even if it sometimes make some people feel good and self affirmed in their standpoint.

I think you’ve just described the difference in style between St. Philip Neri, and Savonarola ​

St. Philip radiated joy - his personal example had a massive effect on Rome: that is why he is called “Apostle of Rome”. He was extremely firm on the importance of obedience, & had a marvellous sense of humour - so he attracted people. Cardinal Newman is just one; St. Francis de Sales and St. Alphonsus Liguori, like others, owe something to his example.

Enforcing regulations from without may ensure exterior obedience - but it’s not going - of itself - to ensure the interior love of obedience to Christ that results in obedience to Christ and to His servants (i.e. everybody else). It may result in nothing but legalism and empty formalism. Where would the Church be, without renewal by the Holy Spirit ? That is what keeps her ever-young. (IIRC, the Pope said something like that in the homily for his installation) ##

As far as “all that has happened thus far that threatens our Church and our children”, well do you mean basically the history of the Church over these lo 2000 years? Afterall, there have been plenty of times in our history when things have been worse. It’s the story of sinful man on a journey through this vale of tears. Always has been, always will be. People, including Churchmen, are all too human and will often fall or fail, despite what is sometimes even exercizing best intentions.