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Dauphin
Guest
That’s too bad - the preface can be incredibly moving when chanted, although I’ve only ever heard it done in Latin.
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japhy
Guest
He may have chanted the Preface itself (I don’t remember), but he didn’t chant the dialog before it (“lift up your hearts”, etc.).
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Brendan
Guest
Sort of.
In April of 1974, Pope Paul send a letter ,entitled Jubilate Deo, to all the bishops of the world, charging them with teaching the faithful standard chants.
He left the method of instruction up to the diocesan bishop, but did say that the faithful are to know these basic chants.
Unfortunatly, most bishops, in an interesting twist of logic, decided that the best way of teaching the faithful these chants was to ingnore the Pope’s letter.
So the Pope’s instruction remains yet to be implemented.
Pope John Paul inserted this item into the GIRM
So no, there is no requirement that the faithful chant the liturgy, but we are required to know it.
So if you don’t ask your pastor, as it is his responsibility to see that this element of the GIRM is implemented in your parish.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I’d like to see the document, and also subsequent documents(if they exist), that all Catholics required to know Latin Gergorian Chant, in the liturgy.
Jim
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japhy
Guest
Here’s my list:
- 1963: [Sacrosanctum Concilium (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html) n. 54: “Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”
- 1964: Inter Oecumenici, n. 59: “Pastors shall carefully see to it that the Christian faithful, especially members of lay religious institutes, also know how to recite or sing together in Latin, mainly with simple melodies, the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass proper to them.”
- 1967: Musicam Sacram, n. 47: “Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular 'the faithful may also be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.’”
- 1974: [Voluntati Obsequens (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWPLAIN.HTM) (which accompanied Jubilate Deo, Pope Paul VI’s booklet of a minimum repertoire of chant for the faithful)
- 2007: Sacramentum Caritatis, n. 62: “In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies [those celebrated at international gatherings] be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.”
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James0235
Guest
I am certain it will again become the norm.
The Church repeatedly states that is should be used. And priests and bishops repeatedly ignore the Church on this. But, it appears that in many places the tide is turning.
**Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
**(Vatican II****, Sacrosanctum Concilium 54)
The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action
(Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium 116)
All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.
Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.
(General Instruction of the Roman Missal 41)
On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober ine*briation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.
(Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Spirit of the Liturgy, p. 148 )
Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.
** (Pope Benedict XVI, Saramentum Caritatis 62)**
“The Church recognizes Gregorian chant as being specially suited to the Roman Liturgy. Therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.” Gregorian chant is uniquely the Church’s own music. Chant is a living connection with our forebears in the faith, the traditional music of the Roman rite, a sign of communion with the universal Church, a bond of unity across cultures, a means for diverse communities to participate together in song, and a summons to contemplative participation in the Liturgy.
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 72)
The Second Vatican Council directed that the faithful be able to sing parts of the Ordinary of the Mass together in Latin. In many worshiping communities in the United States, fulfilling this directive will mean introducing Latin chant to worshipers who perhaps have not sung it before. While prudence, pastoral sensitivity, and reasonable time for progress are encouraged to achieve this end, every effort in this regard is laudable and highly encouraged.
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 74)
Each worshiping community in the United States, including all age groups and all ethnic groups, should, at a minimum, learn Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII, all of which are typically included in congregational worship aids. More difficult chants, such as Gloria VIII and settings of the Credo and Pater Noster, might be learned after the easier chants have been mastered.
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 75)
James
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VociMike
Guest
Other forms of music are also acceptable some of the time, but if chant is to be given pride of place, it should be made available in every parish. Just One Mass a Week, as I like to call for.
What’s this talk about a mandate? We are called to make sure that Gregorian chant is suitably esteemed as the song proper to the Roman liturgy.
Anyway, it is certainly the case that those who want to see chant attain its rightful place in the Roman liturgy need to make the effort, in whatever way they are qualified, to help that come about. It does no good to demand chant of music directors who know nothing about chant. They need to be taught, parishes need to be taught, and those who can teach them need to step up to the plate.
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Sarabande
Guest
I know that in some parishes people have forgotten how to do this. That is a sad thing. My parish and a couple other parishes I sometimes attend will do it frequently.
When our parish started doing it a lot more often during the masses without the choir, there weren’t as many voices chanting along, but with the help of a few people in the congregation who sang out and myself (the cantor - and I did not sing into the microphone - I just sang out in chant-style) in some time the people began to “participate” more in the chanted responses.
The words are already in the books. They are the same as when we recite them. Music will be no help unless a person reads music. For most people it has to be by rote.
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onmyknees
Guest
Hi , Just wondering if your from the parish in Shoreline, Washington.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
japhy,
nothing you posted states that Catholics are required to know how to sing the Latin parts of the Mass. The documents suggest that pastors should provide the training so the laity “may” sing these parts.
However, the documents are rather old, and probably outdated, for the Bishops have not placed any sort of mandate on the pastors, to require the laity to sing the parts of the Mass in Latin.
I think you’re making a stretch here.
Jim
nothing you posted states that Catholics are required to know how to sing the Latin parts of the Mass. The documents suggest that pastors should provide the training so the laity “may” sing these parts.
However, the documents are rather old, and probably outdated, for the Bishops have not placed any sort of mandate on the pastors, to require the laity to sing the parts of the Mass in Latin.
I think you’re making a stretch here.
Jim
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VAC
Guest
I read the OP and it said chant, not Latin chant. If I missed something, let me know.
I lead music at a children’s mass. Durning Advent and Lent we use the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. I left in the chanted ‘Our Father’.and ‘Lord have Mercy’ (which was seldom used when the Deacon is there) for ordinary time, despite funny looks from our pianist.
I am so tempted to use chant for the memorial acclamation and amen, just to have a place for chant in the mass (in English) during ordinary time. I would have the support of our priest and at least one choir member and her family.
On the other hand, I become a big chicken when I am told the music at my mass drags. (Priest doesn’t complain) The next mass has an acoustic bass and bongos.
One of the religious Ed leaders came and announced at mass that the youth were going to be used in every part of the mass and liturgy in the coming year (that’s fine) Then she said they were taking them to Universal Studios for one of those Contemporary Christian events, and that they would bring back music with them to make mass more exciting.
. The ‘youth’ mass is considered the Sat. vigil, mine is Sunday 9 am.
I was surprised our priest didn’t contradict her right then and there.
I caught him after mass, he said something like 'We’ll see what happens" and when I told him I had an electric guitar and a 4 inch binder full of praise and worship music at home if that’s what he wanted, he said he didn’t want “Praisey Crazy” music at mass, and was happy with what I was doing.
Just another update from a new church who’s building is going up!
I lead music at a children’s mass. Durning Advent and Lent we use the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. I left in the chanted ‘Our Father’.and ‘Lord have Mercy’ (which was seldom used when the Deacon is there) for ordinary time, despite funny looks from our pianist.
I am so tempted to use chant for the memorial acclamation and amen, just to have a place for chant in the mass (in English) during ordinary time. I would have the support of our priest and at least one choir member and her family.
On the other hand, I become a big chicken when I am told the music at my mass drags. (Priest doesn’t complain) The next mass has an acoustic bass and bongos.
One of the religious Ed leaders came and announced at mass that the youth were going to be used in every part of the mass and liturgy in the coming year (that’s fine) Then she said they were taking them to Universal Studios for one of those Contemporary Christian events, and that they would bring back music with them to make mass more exciting.
. The ‘youth’ mass is considered the Sat. vigil, mine is Sunday 9 am.I was surprised our priest didn’t contradict her right then and there.
I caught him after mass, he said something like 'We’ll see what happens" and when I told him I had an electric guitar and a 4 inch binder full of praise and worship music at home if that’s what he wanted, he said he didn’t want “Praisey Crazy” music at mass, and was happy with what I was doing.
Just another update from a new church who’s building is going up!
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redrosetea
Guest
Personally I don’t like rock or folk music at mass and avoid the masses that do this…We are worshipping not going to a concert
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James0235
Guest
There is always the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ take on the matter:
The Second Vatican Council directed that the faithful be able to sing parts of the Ordinary of the Mass together in Latin. In many worshiping communities in the United States, fulfilling this directive will mean introducing Latin chant to worshipers who perhaps have not sung it before. While prudence, pastoral sensitivity, and reasonable time for progress are encouraged to achieve this end, every effort in this regard is laudable and highly encouraged.
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 74 emphasis added)
Each worshiping community in the United States, including all age groups and all ethnic groups, should, at a minimum, learn Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII, all of which are typically included in congregational worship aids. More difficult chants, such as Gloria VIII and settings of the Credo and Pater Noster, might be learned after the easier chants have been mastered.
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 75 emphasis added)
Is 2007 recent enough for you? Our bishops have designated specific chants that American Catholics should know “at a minimum”.
I don’t think he is.
If if comes down to obeying the successors of the Apostles (including the successor of Peter) or not then I think we should choose to obey.
James
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VociMike
Guest
Well, we can’t really “go back” to vernacular chant, because we were never there in the first place. So the only chant that we could “go back to” is Latin chant (for the Roman liturgy). But certainly in the future we should hope for and work towards chanted liturgies in the vernacular as well as in Latin. It is more ideal to sing THE Mass rather than sing AT Mass, no matter the language.
You need to push the concept of “sober inebriation”.
I’m struck by the connection between the quest for “more exciting” as practiced by theme parks (all well and good), and transferring that value system to the liturgy (extremely questionable). Since when did “more exciting” become a goal (the goal?) for liturgy?One of the religious Ed leaders came and announced at mass that the youth were going to be used in every part of the mass and liturgy in the coming year (that’s fine) Then she said they were taking them to Universal Studios for one of those Contemporary Christian events, and that they would bring back music with them to make mass more exciting.
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japhy
Guest
Let’s see.
Sacrosanctum Concilium n. 54: This is from the Vatican II document on the liturgy (and its reform); article 54 is one of the FEW ARTICLES that actually describes a particular reform to the liturgy (in this case, the allowance for the vernacular). In context, it says that, while the vernacular may allowed in the Mass, “nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.” In Latin, it reads (in part) Provideatur tamen ut christifideles etiam lingua latina… which means “It should be provided, nevertheless, that the faithful likewise in the Latin tongue…”. If bishops and pastors aren’t doing this, they are not doing what Vatican II said they should be doing.
Inter Oecumenici, n. 59: This is the first instruction on the application of the Vatican II document on the liturgy, and this article (59) contains a specific instruction to pastors, that they “shall carefully see to it that the Christian faithful … also know how to recite or sing together in Latin, mainly with simple melodies, the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass proper to them.” This is what pastors shall see to. If pastors aren’t doing this, they are not doing what the Church said they shall do.
Musicam Sacram, n. 47: This is a repeat of the previous one.
Voluntati Obsequens (which accompanied Jubilate Deo, Pope Paul VI’s booklet of a minimum repertoire of chant for the faithful): Did you even read this?! The Congregation put together the minimum repertoire to meet “a desire which the Holy Father had frequently expressed, that all the faithful should know at least some Latin Gregorian chants”. The letter takes the opportunity to recommend to the Bishops “this new initiative, whose purpose is to facilitate the observance of the recommendation of the Second Vatican Council ‘…steps must be taken to ensure that the faithful are able to chant together in Latin those parts of the ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.’” Look at that: STEPS MUST BE TAKEN! At the end it says: “In presenting the Holy Father’s gift to you, may I at the same time remind you of the desire which he has often expressed that the Conciliar constitution on the liturgy be increasingly better implemented. Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of Jubilate Deo and of having them sing them, and also of promoting the preservation and execution of Gregorian chant in the communities mentioned above. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal.” Imagine that… a Bishop who not only faithfully and respectfully honored the Pope’s desires, but also facilitated the proper carrying out of the Constitution on the Liturgy.
Sacramentum Caritatis, n. 62: This exhortation from Pope Benedict (who we all know you occasionally disagree with in liturgical matters, by your own admission) is from 2007. Not old, not outdated, not superseded. Here’s the end of article 62: “I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.” The first half (up to the semicolon) is a request of the Holy Father regarding the formation of priests; the second half (after the semicolon) is not so much a request as a reminder of what was said at Vatican II.
Oh, the documents are old! Well then, since the Vatican II documents are so old and probably outdated, let’s throw them out. How’s that? This is a pathetic argument, Jim. Just because bishops fail to follow through on what Councils and Popes have said doesn’t make the bishops right nor the Councils and Popes wrong. It’s that deplorable attitude that increases the lifespan of problems which the Church is trying to correct, like certain liturgical abuses.
YOU show ME the documents nullifying the ones I’ve shown.
I think you’re infuriating me.
J
japhy
Guest
Vernacular chant is good too, if it’s based on the Latin chant tradition of the Church. Chant can be done in other ways that are not within the tradition of the Church; those should be avoided (i.e. don’t use chants in the Mass that sound like Hindu mantras).
But Gregorian chant is the best chant for the Roman Rite, and it should be employed.
J
japhy
Guest
Jim, the USCCB says that Vatican II directed us to be able to chant in Latin at Mass.
And again: the USCCB tells us something we should, at a minimum, learn. Or did they want us to learn them but not use them?
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VAC
Guest
My earliest memories of mass in the late 60’s and 70’s WERE
chanted English. Small town in NW Fla (baptist country) If we were lucky we’d have an organist.
What do you mean by sober inebreiation?
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redrosetea
Guest
The Our Father and the Gloria have been chanter in my church for decades
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VociMike
Guest
That’s quite astonishing - certainly far from the norm after the vernacular Mass came into being. Good for them, whoever they were!
It’s an ancient phrase that has also been used by Pope Benedict. He (as Cardinal Ratzinger) wrote, for example, “It is above all in Church music that the ‘sober inebriation’ of faith takes place - an inebriation surpassing all the possibilities of mere rationality. But this inebriation remains sober, because Christ and the Holy Spirit belong together…”
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