Do you want the EF as normative for the entire Latin Church?

[kingal86]

I voted “Yes and no exceptions”.
…

Guess which mass all of this [irreverence] occured at?

Thats right, the Novus Ordo. And you know what else? That is not unusual, but rather ‘par for the course’, in my experience of the Novus Ordo.

And this is exactly why I wasnt the EF back as the norm.

I must admit I’m not even Catholic and some the irreverence at Masses can be quite shocking to me on occasion. Particularly with regard to mobile phones going off or being played with etc. (I’m aware that charitably some may be doctors on call etc., but this is probably rare), and your example of many sometimes rushing straight off after receiving communion without even waiting for “the Mass is ended”. (So many that it is unlikely they all have a grave reason to leave so soon).

 

[johnnyc176]

I find it tiresome that one cannot discuss a legitimate question: what is the objective value of the Pauline Rite as compared to the Tridentine Rite? Please note I said Rite for a reason: of course the sacrifice of the Mass remains of infinite value. This question has been discussed since the 70’s until today but all levels of peoples from a layman like Davies to then Cardinal Ratzinger but whenever it’s discussed in some circles people tend to throw all their toys out the cot and go on about preference and choice and use false notions of papal authority and this and that and they end up making out as if it makes you a bad Catholic to discuss such a question. That’s the only thing I notice, and that is what is tiresome.

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve never seen anybody online or in person make a judgement about how good of a Catholic someone is depending on which Mass they attend.

I have.

In fact more often than not traditionalists I know seem to go out of their way to point out that even the NO can sanctify.

Ok.

I find it tiresome that one cannot discuss a legitimate question: what is the objective value of the Pauline Rite as compared to the Tridentine Rite? Please note I said Rite for a reason: of course the sacrifice of the Mass remains of infinite value. This question has been discussed since the 70’s until today but all levels of peoples from a layman like Davies to then Cardinal Ratzinger but whenever it’s discussed in some circles people tend to throw all their toys out the cot and go on about preference and choice and use false notions of papal authority and this and that and they end up making out as if it makes you a bad Catholic to discuss such a question. That’s the only thing I notice, and that is what is tiresome.

I think you are misunderstanding my sentiment, Basilios. I’m all about “discussion”. To the tune of over 19,000 times I’ve “discussed”.

I just don’t like the tacit or overt judgement that some have regarding those who prefer the NO over the EF.

That’s all. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[FrStevenJones]

I’m a supporter of the EF and offer it usually in private Masses. At some point I hope to offer it every week, as a pastor. As (currently) Parochial Vicar, I don’t have this choice!

I think EF is great for young people who don’t have a grind against Latin and chant. So, it’s going to be in the mix. But reform of how the OF is offered is where there is s huge opportunity: using Gregorian Chant and Propers rather than hymns, Ad Orientem, using communion rail!

 

[JRKH]

I’m a supporter of the EF and offer it usually in private Masses. At some point I hope to offer it every week, as a pastor. As (currently) Parochial Vicar, I don’t have this choice!

I think EF is great for young people who don’t have a grind against Latin and chant. So, it’s going to be in the mix. But reform of how the OF is offered is where there is s huge opportunity: using Gregorian Chant and Propers rather than hymns, Ad Orientem, using communion rail!

 

[Zekariya]

Perhaps something like this might work… A normative EF with the option to be prayed in the vernacular (for those communities that desire such). And also, with the option for the priest to pray aloud those parts of the Canon which the laity are already used to hearing aloud (for those communities that desire such).

Some Eastern parishes use a lot of the vernacular in the Mass while others use more Coptic, Slavonic, Aramaic, etc.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

As far as what I want, I would rather see the OF only, and have it be celebrated in the way it was intended.

There is most certainly a lack of reverence, but that can be said for just about any situation where quiet and respect used to be the norm. Think about the movies, museums, fancy retaurants, libraries- all places where quiet & decorum where the rule. Not so much anymore!

And, for those who think that the EF will solve all these problems (i.e. reverence at Mass, etc), it is obvious, to me at least, the the Church saw a problem with the EF, hence the changes. I have a feeling that if it were the Ordinary, we would see just as much, if not more abuse (due to the tighter rubrics) than we do now. It’s not the “form”, it’s the people.

 

[maryjk]

As far as what I want, I would rather see the OF only, and have it be celebrated in the way it was intended.

There is most certainly a lack of reverence, but that can be said for just about any situation where quiet and respect used to be the norm. Think about the movies, museums, fancy retaurants, libraries- all places where quiet & decorum where the rule. Not so much anymore!

This is an interesting observation. Something many people that prefer the EF don’t seem to realize. And an observation I think is Spot On.

There is even a thread going on right now talking about cell phone use. And a parent talking about her child’s school and the total and overwhelming noise level in the classroom, computer room and library.

And, for those who think that the EF will solve all these problems (i.e. reverence at Mass, etc), it is obvious, to me at least, the the Church saw a problem with the EF, hence the changes. I have a feeling that if it were the Ordinary, we would see just as much, if not more abuse (due to the tighter rubrics) than we do now. It’s not the “form”, it’s the people.

Another good point.

 

[JRKH]

I voted “Yes and no exceptions”.

Mainly because the “EF” (as its now known) was normative for the entire Latin Church for nearly 2,000 years, and was then done away with due to very questionable wisdom indeed.

Actually, as I understand it, this is not exactly true. There have been many variations, “forms” of the mass over time in the Church, and certainly the first several hundred years the mass was celebrated in the “vernacular” of those attending the given mass or if a “common tongue” was used in those early centuries it was more likely Greek rather than Latin.
The form that we refer to as the EF today is actually the result of the work of the Council of Trent…a mere 500 years ago - or about 1/4 of the total history of the Church.

As for the wisdom (and methodology) of doing away with the Latin…There you may have a point…

Recently I have learned that Vatican II did not call for Latin to be dropped, or for a totally new mass. Its clear that these things have come as a result of personal agendas. Personally I think we look ridiculous that we do not even seem to clearly understand how we have got to the situation we are in currently.

I agree. Latin IS still the official language of the mass.
As for agenda’s, it is important to remember that there can be “good” agenda’s as well as “bad” ones and I believe that for the most part the intentions behind the evolution of the mass have been good.
That said…I think you are quite right about looking ridiculous - and not just in not knowing the history of the mass, but in the generally poor state of catechesis across the board.

I don’t advocate an “overnight switch” which I think could alienate many people.

Although, ultimately, I want the EF as normative, I would allow both forms to coexist (at least for a while).** I have no desire to marginalize, worry or offend people who are happy to remain at the novus ordo.** In some places, there is a lot of hurt due to how the EF is suppressed or maligned and I do not see any profit in simply switching to the inverse situation.

I think this is very wise. We need to learn from past mistakes so that as we move forward we can tear down walls and use the material to build bridges.

Ultimately, I think people would vote with their feet and the EF would become more popular. I also think people who are confused about, or dismissive of, the EF would come to love it, if they gave it a chance.

Yesterday, I attended mass twice, one latin mass and one novus ordo.

(Snipped the list of specific problems for space)

Guess which mass all of this occured at?

Thats right, the Novus Ordo. And you know what else? That is not unusual, but rather ‘par for the course’, in my experience of the Novus Ordo.

And this is exactly why I want the EF back as the norm.

With all due respect, what you want is a return to reverence - regardless of the form the mass used.
I remember when the Latin mass WAS the norm and I can assure you that many of abuses you mention in your post occurred quite regularly. Of course we did not have cell phones going off, but the list of improprieties at any given mass could easily be just as long.
Improper (for the time) dress…whispering in the pews…coming in late…leaving early…the priest rushing through the prayers (I sometimes wonder if he actually said them all)…people falling asleep during mass…etc.

The problem is not the form of mass.
Right now - the EF has a certain aura about it because those who attend generally do so out of a great love and often have to go out of their way in order to attend.
If the EF became norm…all of the “norms” of behavior in the pews that you abhor would be seen in the Tridentine mass just as they are seen in the N.O. now.
As I say - I’ve seen this with my own eyes.

So - While I support your desire, that desire needs to be recognized for what it is…not so much a problem with the form of mass, but rather with the reverence with which it is approached.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

As far as what I want, I would rather see the OF only, and have it be celebrated in the way it was intended.

There is most certainly a lack of reverence, but that can be said for just about any situation where quiet and respect used to be the norm. Think about the movies, museums, fancy retaurants, libraries- all places where quiet & decorum where the rule. Not so much anymore!

And, for those who think that the EF will solve all these problems (i.e. reverence at Mass, etc), it is obvious, to me at least, the the Church saw a problem with the EF, hence the changes. I have a feeling that if it were the Ordinary, we would see just as much, if not more abuse (due to the tighter rubrics) than we do now. It’s not the “form”, it’s the people.

You posted while I was composing…and said it so much better than I did…

The issue is not the form but the people and - more importantly - the beliefs of those people - that leads back to catechesis.

Peace
James

 

[ProVobis]

As far as what I want, I would rather see the OF only, and have it be celebrated in the way it was intended.

I keep hearing this but how exactly was it intended? By definition, anything reformed means that you don’t want to do it the old way.

 

[Zekariya]

I keep hearing this but how exactly was it intended? By definition, anything reformed means that you don’t want to do it the old way.

The Tridentine Mass was a reform of the previous uses. Pope St Gregory the Great reformed the previous Roman Mass. You can also see this in the East as St John Chrysostom reformed St Basil the Great’s reform of the Byzantine Mass.

I tend to think that “the way it was intended” means properly executed, proper reverent actions retained, retaining Roman liturgical art (images, statues, beauty, etc).

“But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.” - Venerable Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei

 

[agnes_therese]

Hi Agnes
Yet, in 2013, at the Novus Ordo the majority of people take communion in a way that is against the norms of the Church and weakens belief in the real presence.

How do people take communion at your Novus Ordo? Do they kneel for communion on the tongue, or stand and receive in the hand?
GWright

At the Ordinary Form masses I attend, people universally receive Holy Communion in one of the two ways allowed by the Church. I’ve never seen any other.

 

[Megan7]

I’m a supporter of the EF and offer it usually in private Masses. At some point I hope to offer it every week, as a pastor. As (currently) Parochial Vicar, I don’t have this choice!

I think EF is great for young people who don’t have a grind against Latin and chant. So, it’s going to be in the mix. But reform of how the OF is offered is where there is s huge opportunity: using Gregorian Chant and Propers rather than hymns, Ad Orientem, using communion rail!

God bless you Father I will keep you in my prayers.
I also hope that you will be able to offer the EF every week.

Pax.

 

[GWright]

At the Ordinary Form masses I attend, people universally receive Holy Communion in one of the two ways allowed by the Church. I’ve never seen any other.

There is only one “proper” way to receive communion - receiving on the tongue, while kneeling.

Receiving in the hand is an “indult”, widespread in Western nations.

(I presume the two ways you mention are on tongue, and on hand? Sorry If I misunderstood).

 

[Zekariya]

There is only one “proper” way to receive communion - receiving on the tongue, while kneeling.

Perhaps while kneeling is the proper way for Latin Catholics… In the Eastern Churches we receive on the tongue, while standing (even on days when we make tons of prostrations during Mass).

 

[ProVobis]

The Tridentine Mass was a reform of the previous uses.

My understanding is that Pius V abrogated all reformed Masses since 1370 AD. The reasons became obvious from the documents of the Council of Trent.

I tend to think that “the way it was intended” means properly executed, proper reverent actions retained, retaining Roman liturgical art (images, statues, beauty, etc).

The reality is that with reforms, everything is on the table. Good luck in explaining that certain things must be retained.

 

[GWright]

I must admit I’m not even Catholic and some the irreverence at Masses can be quite shocking to me on occasion. Particularly with regard to mobile phones going off or being played with etc. (I’m aware that charitably some may be doctors on call etc., but this is probably rare), and your example of many sometimes rushing straight off after receiving communion without even waiting for “the Mass is ended”. (So many that it is unlikely they all have a grave reason to leave so soon).

Hi there kingal86,

I agree totally with your thoughts.

We must not be uncharitable and - of course - no-one is perfect, we can all make mistakes and there are times we we all forget to put our phone off, or accidentally let a door bang etc.

However, what is so disappointing to me is the depressingly regularity with which these things happen.

For example, if I went to mass (novus ordo) I would actually be surprised if I didnt hear at least one phone go off. If these things happened only one in a blue moon, I would not be so bothered about it - but its the fact its the norm (or at least, very common).

Its just sad - it shows that people are not giving any particular thought to where they are, or what is going on around them.

The woman I called “Lady Gaga” earlier (!) has all kinds of form. She usually attends as part of a family group, and there is a small infant child who, like all kids, occasionally plays up.

Thst no big deal, (we cant expect adult behaviour from kids), but Gaga uses this as a constant excuse to take the kid off to the side of the Church, where she sits on the ground and lets the kid run riot as though they were in a playground.

The lowest point came when the child was allowed to use the All Souls side chapel as a playground. It was painfully obvious that Gaga had no real appreciation that the area she was allowing the child to play in, and she herself was lounging around in, was an altar dedicated to the faithful departed. Sad.

That was the day I noticed that Gaga spent 90% of her time playing with the child at the side of the Church. The other 10% was made up of going up for communion and chatting with her neighbours.

I remember thinking “As she clearly isnt interested in whats been said or done on the alter, why is she even here?”

Then, I had an epiphany.

I realised that the reason she spent so much time fussing over the child was because…

The family bring the child along specifically to keep Gaga occupied, just the same as how some families bring along toys to keep children opccupied.

How sad and ridiculous is that, eh?

I must admit, I nearly burst out laughing at this ridiculous realisation - but its definitely more sad than funny.

(probably there is another thread elsewhere moaning about some guy (me) who was smirking during mass one day - haha!)

 

[CruceSignati]

Rather than get involved in the mix of opinions right off the bat, I’ll just add my two cents. :twocents:
I think that the EF is wonderful! I have heard that most of the vocations to Holy Orders come from the people who attend the EF. Inn addition, the reverence, music, and of course the Latin, are beautiful parts of the Mass.

However (and some people may jump on me for saying this), there are some pros of the NO. For one example: if I was and agnostic and I was considering converting to Catholicism, I probably wouldn’t get a lot out of the EF. It might just seem like a bunch of reverent mumbo-jumbo to me, and I would be unimpressed and leave. On the other hand, if I were to attend a **reverent **(and please note the stress on the word reverent) NO Mass and I could understand a bit of it, perhaps it would win me over for the One True Faith.
Just my thoughts.

 

[GWright]

Perhaps while kneeling is the proper way for Latin Catholics… In the Eastern Churches we receive on the tongue, while standing (even on days when we make tons of prostrations during Mass).

Hi there,

Thanks for that info - I didnt know there was a difference between latin and eastern churches in that respect.

Cheers
GWright