Do you want the EF as normative for the entire Latin Church?

[CutlerB]

I’ve found a particular interest in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, and would like to know how you feel about it. If you like, feel free to post why you voted this particular way.

 

[quiet52]

I’ve found a particular interest in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, and would like to know how you feel about it. If you like, feel free to post why you voted this particular way.

I appreciate both the EF and NO (Novus Ordo).

I think “either/or” is a moot issue and that we’ll continue to see a smattering of Catholics prefering the EF, with most Catholics prefering the NO.

I like that the NO has an Old Testament reading during the Liturgy of the Word, and that it uses a three-year liturgical cycle.
I like that the EF has the second Gospel and other prayers after the Dismissal.

There are things I like about both forms, but I prefer attending the NO, most of the time.

I love the Mass – its different forms enrich the Church, and there shouldn’t be any “competition” or debates as to which might be “better.”

 

[CutlerB]

I appreciate both the EF and NO (Novus Ordo).

I think “either/or” is a moot issue and that we’ll continue to see a smattering of Catholics prefering the EF, with most Catholics prefering the NO.

I like that the NO has an Old Testament reading during the Liturgy of the Word, and that it uses a three-year liturgical cycle.
I like that the EF has the second Gospel and other prayers after the Dismissal.

There are things I like about both forms, but I prefer attending the NO, most of the time.

I love the Mass – its different forms enrich the Church, and there shouldn’t be any “competition” or debates as to which might be “better.”

It’s not my intention to have competition, I’d just like to see how people feel. I quite agree with your remarks!

 

[Lucky7]

My feelings on this makes it difficult to select a specific option. Let me think on it.

 

[Cat]

You are asking a narrow group of Catholics here in the Traditional Section. In fact, you are asking a narrow group of Catholics here on CAF, Most Catholics have either never heard of CAF, or would not join an online group.

A poll of a narrow group is not very accurate.

I would encourage you to attend parishes that offer the OF, and then get to know many of those Catholics and ask them this same question in person. I’m fairly certain that you will hear quite a different answer about the EF from these real-life Christians than what you hear on CAF.

In our city, there is an EF Mass (daily and weekly), and about 400 Catholics attend. They are enthusiastic about the EF Mass, but the friends that I have in that parish do not disparage the OF Mass in any way. The vast majority of Catholics in our city, many thousand, attend parishes with OF Masses.

 

[CutlerB]

You are asking a narrow group of Catholics here in the Traditional Section. In fact, you are asking a narrow group of Catholics here on CAF, Most Catholics have either never heard of CAF, or would not join an online group.

A poll of a narrow group is not very accurate.

I would encourage you to attend parishes that offer the OF, and then get to know many of those Catholics and ask them this same question in person. I’m fairly certain that you will hear quite a different answer about the EF from these real-life Christians than what you hear on CAF.

In our city, there is an EF Mass (daily and weekly), and about 400 Catholics attend. They are enthusiastic about the EF Mass, but the friends that I have in that parish do not disparage the OF Mass in any way. The vast majority of Catholics in our city, many thousand, attend parishes with OF Masses.

I am well aware of this, but thanks.

 

[quiet52]

Cutler,

I just noticed that you’re working on becoming Catholic. I hope you enjoy the adventure by asking all kinds of questions (some of which don’t have definitive answers, but it can be fun, right?!).

Please share with us what attracts you to the EF of the Mass!

 

[april32010]

are we taking polls on whats allowed ?

 

[april32010]

to be clear i’m # 1,but the Vatican isn’t returning my calls

 

[Filii_Dei]

I’m having difficulty answering this. I appreciate different elements from both the OF and EF, so I attend both to fully avail myself of the spirituality from both of them.

Before I begin, I wish to make clear that I do not believe in any way that either form of Mass is illicit or somehow defective. I merely wish to give a list of the different elements from each form which I find meaningful to my spirituality.

Firstly, from the OF,

1. 
   *]The use of two readings, and a three-year liturgical cycle through the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke to cover the different Gospel accounts.
   *]The return of psalms, although I may not like the way responsorial psalms are executed in some parishes.
   *]The allowance of the vernacular to allow the laity to understand the changeable Propers of the Mass without a parallel Latin-English missal or proficiency in Latin.
   *]Audible prayer and responses that empowers the active engagement of the laity in assisting at Mass.
   *]The permission of communion by intinction.
   *]The allowance for concelebration to show the unity and universality of the Church, even though the exact practice is still not perfected at this stage.
   
   Likewise, from the EF,
   1. 
      *]A general atmosphere of a solemn, majestic, mystical and holy sacrifice worthy of God, not of a banal worship service.
      *]Clearly-defined rubrics that set clear guidelines on what should be done that ensures uniformity of the Mass and less ambiguity that permits abuse and omission.
      *]The mandated use of ad orientem, that turns both clergy and laity towards the common worship of God.
      *]A single, unchanging, elaborate Roman Canon, that is always the same regardless of the Mass.
      *]The use of Latin, the mother tongue of our mother church, that elevates the mystery of the Mass.
      *]The mandatory reception of communion on the tongue.
      *]The prayers before the Altar and the Last Gospel.
      *]The liturgical seasons of Sundays before Lent and Sundays after Pentecost.
      *]Did I mention the atmosphere?
      
      It is because of these that I continue to hold fast to our previous Holy Father Papa Benedictus’s thinking that the eventual end-goal should be a single form of Mass that combines the best from the OF and the EF.

 

[FrStevenJones]

Since Vatican II’s “Sancrosanctum Concilium” called for a revision in the rite of Mass, which resulted in the current OF liturgy, it is really impossible for the OF to be abolished a to go back exclusively to the EF, although the OF could and probably will be revised in the future.

• Fr Jones

 

[Basilios]

Voted yes with no exceptions because my true answer wasn’t available so I will say it here:

Not for the entire Latin Church - but I want all the other Latin Rites to go back to their traditional Rites rather than say the OF or the newer version of their Rite (i.e. Ambrosian EF, Dominican Rite, etc).

I also want to keep the Anglican Use liturgy - and if desired, in the vernacular. In fact if the OF got swapped with the Anglican Use liturgy I’d be happy. I’d even be happy if the OF stayed with some minor revisions in the prayers (not the translations, but the actual Latin prayers since they are lacking) and some major overhaul in liturgical attitude and strictness. That way the OF could be said basically as an EF in the vernacular which is not necessarily a bad thing. Also to keep the Canon silent, to limit responses to altar boys, etc.

But getting way off track.

 

[GWright]

I voted “Yes and no exceptions”.

Mainly because the “EF” (as its now known) was normative for the entire Latin Church for nearly 2,000 years, and was then done away with due to very questionable wisdom indeed.

Recently I have learned that Vatican II did not call for Latin to be dropped, or for a totally new mass. Its clear that these things have come as a result of personal agendas. Personally I think we look ridiculous that we do not even seem to clearly understand how we have got to the situation we are in currently.

I dont advocate an “overnight switch” which I think could alienate many people.

Although, ultimately, I want the EF as normative, I would allow both forms to coexist (at least for a while).** I have no desire to marginalise, worry or offend people who are happy to remain at the novus ordo.** In some places, there is a lot of hurt due to how the EF is suppressed or maligned and I do not see any profit in simply switching to the inverse situation.

Ultimately, I think people would vote with their feet and the EF would become more popular. I also think people who are confused about, or dismissive of, the EF would come to love it, if they gave it a chance.

Yesterday, I attended mass twice, one latin mass and one novus ordo.

During one of the masses, all of this happened:

• mobile phones rang audibly during the service on two occasions
• on arrival, a young woman was seen not to bother genuflecting when going into her seat. I presume this was because her skirt was so obviously short that it barely covered her buttocks whilst she was standing, and so genuflecting would have caused (more) problems with modesty.
• another young woman arrived significantly late, during the liturgy of the word. Most of the attention was on her - not the readings - as she noisily entered the Church and proceeded to her seat whilst dressed like Lady Gaga, including towering heels (clack-clack-clack) and exceptionaly revealling “painted on” leggings. At first I thought she was looking for a nightclub and had wandered into the Church by accident.
• many people were observed talking amongst themselves during the mass.
• priests often failed to acknowledge the presence of the tabernacle, often breezing past without a second thought.
• 99.9% of people took communion in a way that is against the norms of the Church and in a casual fashion which weakens belief in the real presence.
• many people left the Church directly after communion, typically in the most noisy fashion possible (while others are trying to pray).
• at the end, a visiting priest was given the chance to make an appeal for charity - lasting just a few minutes. Several people couldnt be bothered listening and rudely got up and noisily left the Church when he was trying to address us.
• some people actually clapped the visiting priest, when he was finished. Obviously they got mixed up and thought they were sitting in the theatre, not Church.

Guess which mass all of this occured at?

Thats right, the Novus Ordo. And you know what else? That is not unusual, but rather ‘par for the course’, in my experience of the Novus Ordo.

And this is exactly why I wasnt the EF back as the norm.

 

[Holly3278]

No but I do want them both to coexist. I would also like to see the Extraordinary Form become much more widely available than what it is.

 

[agnes_therese]

Thats right, the Novus Ordo. And you know what else? That is not unusual, but rather ‘par for the course’, in my experience of the Novus Ordo.

And this is exactly why I wasnt the EF back as the norm.

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences, but you need to recognize that this is NOT “par for the course” at all parishes that offer the Ordinary Form. In fact, after attending the Ordinary Form exclusively (no EF available to me except SSPX), in several different parishes, for almost 30 years, I have never seen most of the things you mention.

I voted for both to be available.

 

[GWright]

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences, but you need to recognize that this is NOT “par for the course” at all parishes that offer the Ordinary Form.

Hi Agnes

I dont doubt the novus ordo can be a reverant service. It seems to me that it started off reverant and has been becoming more casual ever since.

When I was a kid (early 80s) I remember my mum having to kneel at an altar rail and receive communion on the tongue.

Yet, in 2013, at the Novus Ordo the majority of people take communion in a way that is against the norms of the Church and weakens belief in the real presence.

How do people take communion at your Novus Ordo? Do they kneel for communion on the tongue, or stand and receive in the hand?

(I will edit my post above to include this major point - cant believe I left it out)

I voted for both to be available.

Well that would be a start, for sure!

Cheers!
GWright

 

[JRKH]

I think that where the question is asked is naturally going to skew the results somewhat…but even that can be informative.
Perhaps a more general idea could be gotten if the same question were asked in the “liturgy” forum.

For myself, I only want what the previous two pontiffs wanted. That both forms be accepted and appreciated and properly and reverently celebrated.

Peace
James

 

[thistle]

The Church allows both and that is what we should accept.
Whether an individual prefers the EF or NO is a personal choice and they should not try to imply that anyone choosing the form they don’t like is wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

The Church allows both and that is what we should accept.
Whether an individual prefers the EF or NO is a personal choice and they should not try to imply that anyone choosing the form they don’t like is wrong.

Indeed. I find it tiresome when the question of whether one prefers the EF or NO becomes the shibboleth for how good of a Catholic a particular person is.

 

[Basilios]

The Church allows both and that is what we should accept.
Whether an individual prefers the EF or NO is a personal choice and they should not try to imply that anyone choosing the form they don’t like is wrong.

Nobody is questionning whether or not the Church allows both Even the SSPX ‘accept’ that both are allowed.

As for ‘preference’, sure, nobody should be personally attacked. But critiquing the Rites themselves is not not wrong; and criticizing whether or not a personal choice is a good reason (i.e. I like to listen to guitars at Mass) is also not wrong.

Indeed. I find it tiresome when the question of whether one prefers the EF or NO becomes the shibboleth for how good of a Catholic a particular person is.

I’ve never seen anybody online or in person make a judgement about how good of a Catholic someone is depending on which Mass they attend. In fact more often than not traditionalists I know seem to go out of their way to point out that even the NO can sanctify.

I find it tiresome that one cannot discuss a legitimate question: what is the objective value of the Pauline Rite as compared to the Tridentine Rite? Please note I said Rite for a reason: of course the sacrifice of the Mass remains of infinite value. This question has been discussed since the 70’s until today but all levels of peoples from a layman like Davies to then Cardinal Ratzinger but whenever it’s discussed in some circles people tend to throw all their toys out the cot and go on about preference and choice and use false notions of papal authority and this and that and they end up making out as if it makes you a bad Catholic to discuss such a question. That’s the only thing I notice, and that is what is tiresome.