Do you wear jeans to Mass?

[chicago]

In humility, you again radically misreperesent my postion.

As do you mine (and manyt others here) by trying to define our legitimate arguments against only your own standards.

You have taken the rare and unique cases, and made them the norm and the rule of thumb for this topic, you continually draw false dichotomies.

 

[chicago]

And yet you are not willing to say that it is good and just to hallow the day throguh our appearance.

False. I’ve called it praiseworthy and even noted my own efforts to do it at times in my life. I merely argue that your perspective is not absolute and only.

Yet you refute this statement through the implication that somehow I have made it an end unto itself. Your all for example setting until it comes to setting an example through your attire, writing it of as a relative issue, as superficial. If I have drawn the wrong conlcusion form this statement, please correct me.

Attire can be expressive of many things, or nothing at all. In some cases, it may be (as you suggest) mere “laziness”. In many others it is not, and in fact what you consider to not be up to par might be quite respectable and legitimate in it’s own right.

Why should I think about it? I agree wholeheartedly with this point, I do not disagree that God wants our “undivided” heart. Thats not what is being called into question. You have also implied that those who are dressed nicely are not concerned with giving their undivided heart.

I think that there are some people of all stripes (and in various states of dress or undress) who might not be concerned with giving their whole hearts. But I don’t mean to imply that just because you are dressed well, you aren’t doing that. Indeed, I have noted that it is often very good intentions that inspire such things. Now when people get off worrying about what everybody ELSE is wearing, then maybe they need to refocus more on Mass.

You continually use the “dirty beggar”

No, others have used it, but I have only used the term once, in relating an appropriate context to my personal experience.

…as an escape goat for the fully capable individual who *CAN *dress nicely, but decides that it is too “out of the way”

I make no excuses for such a person. I argue only for legitimizations. You are the one who believes that they need an excuse. And, I agree that intention makes all the difference. But, then, perhaps I don’t think that the intention must necessarily be on the same level that you do.

I agree as well that you can find a dirty beggar with more faith than one who is dressed nicely. It can also be argued that a man who is dressed nicely has more faith and more conviction than that of a dirty beggar.

To each his own! Or as I said previously, “It goes both ways”.

Is this to say then that all poor beggars have more faith than a nicely dressed individuals? Or shall we say all nicely dressed individuals are “rich snobs” stuffy and cold? Should I assert that all nicely dressed individuals are completely and properly disposed interiorly? Certainly not!! to say that these circmustances are the norm and are true realities, is to commit the fallacy of hasty generalization.

And, therefore, I implore you not to make hasty generalizations!

(Pardon me if I find this somewhat, problematic, rigid and thoughtless. Before you accuse me of being ignorant, and wish to scandalize people, understand their postion. Don’t result to personal strikes.) I am sure people on this thread want avoid such actions so as to be able to continue this discussion.

Are you scandalized?

I think I understand your position just fine. I disagree with it. Or, at least, I disagree with your rigidity and casting of aspersions upon those who don’t view things in the absolute way that you do as evidenced by the way in which they dress for Mass. There are other complimentary ways to look at the issue. I believe that you are failing to respect that. And, as we’re having a conversation between two persons, I’m fine with challenging you to look beyond.

Conclusivley, that my position may be properly and clearly understood I will say that, those who are capable, who have the means, should dress approprietly for Mass, should exercise that privledge and act of respect. To not do so (mitigating circumstances aside) would be a snobbish and ungrateful attitude.

Well, then, we agree (at last!) Though there is likely still the issue of what is “appropriate”. And that is, my friend, much more subjective than you think; enabling a variety of outlooks.

Those, due to mitigating circumstances, who cannot and do not have the means to dress in a manner that is conventionally known as “nice” should not be hindered, or be made to feel less because of it!!!

The word “nice”, interestingly, comes from a root word which means “ignorant”. I try not to be “nice”.

Please, before respondning to this post, understand my position and do not misrepresent what I have stated above as my view and position*

I’m certainly trying to do just that.

 

[chicago]

Humbly, In Christ

… and suitcoat!

 

[Michael038]

Dress Pants and a collar shirt, nice pair of dress shoes. Suit and tie for times I serve as an EMHC.

 

[dulcissima]

Interestingly today I went to confession at a different parish since I was out of town earlier today, and was still in line for confession as mass began. The priest who was celebrating mass was wearing white Reebok tennis shoes and olive green twill trousers under his vestments. I was also surprised to see that he had a pierced ear. He was not a young priest either.

Then as if in contrast, the priest who heard my confession was the most ancient looking Franciscan Friar I have ever seen.

 

[buffalo]

Agreed
who are we to Judge?

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction. Alas, we can judge one’s actions but not whether he will go to heaven or not.

 

[davewan]

I would guess I wear jeans to Mass about once or twice a year; shorts only when it’s over 100 degrees in summer, but even then almost never.

Question: have the US Bishops ever published any commentary on the issue of standards for dress at Mass? If anyone can point me to that, I would be grateful.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction. Alas, we can judge one’s actions but not whether he will go to heaven or not.

Nicely put!

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction. Alas, we can judge one’s actions but not whether he will go to heaven or not.

I wouldn’t even judge someone’s actions, especially on a minor matter such as wearing jeans to Mass, if I didn’t know the person’s situation. Your own children? Fine. Total strangers? It’s not our place to “correct” them on their attire, unless they’ve asked for our advice.

 

[buffalo]

I wouldn’t even judge someone’s actions, especially on a minor matter such as wearing jeans to Mass, if I didn’t know the person’s situation. Your own children? Fine. Total strangers? It’s not our place to “correct” them on their attire, unless they’ve asked for our advice.

What does a person have to do for you to apply the teachings on fraternal correction?

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

What does a person have to do for you to apply the teachings on fraternal correction?

It’s not a matter of what the other person does; it’s a matter of whether I know that person (or at least the person’s situation) well enough to apply fraternal correction. I’ve seen way too many people bully others on trivial matters based only on their own personal opinions (and not church doctrine), and justify it by calling it “fraternal correction”. There’s nothing either “correct” or “fraternal” about that.

 

[Nechasin]

shouldn’t he be deserving of a bit more respect?

Dressing up or lack of dressing up for me has nothing to due with respect. If it was up to me, I would wear shorts all of the time. I dress up so that people don’t judge me on how I am dressed. So that their first impression of me isn’t biased because of the way I am dressed. I don’t dress up for other people because of Respect for them it is because I don’t trust them to make judgements based on who I am not what I wear. I don’t have that same trust issue with God.

Granted I don’t wear shorts to Mass, I don’t always dress up for Mass like I would dress up for a wedding. I don’t have a problem wearing Jeans as long as they are not ripped and stained (even if that is they you bought them ).

 

[buffalo]

It’s not a matter of what the other person does; it’s a matter of whether I know that person (or at least the person’s situation) well enough to apply fraternal correction. I’ve seen way too many people bully others on trivial matters based only on their own personal opinions (and not church doctrine), and justify it by calling it “fraternal correction”. There’s nothing either “correct” or “fraternal” about that.

I agree. Discretion is important. I also agree that opinions cloud the correct application of fc.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

I don’t dress up for other people because of Respect for them it is because I don’t trust them to make judgements based on who I am not what I wear. I don’t have that same trust issue with God.

Good point!

I’m always amused at the “would you wear jeans to a wedding?” comparison. As much as God deserves all our respect, last time I checked, Sunday morning Mass wasn’t a black tie occasion. Even the most conservative people don’t seem to wear cocktail dresses, tuxedos, ballgowns or white tie and tails to Mass.

And no, I don’t wear jeans to Mass, or anywhere else, for that matter. I might make an exception for horseback riding.

 

[eileenmm]

I would think that if the jeans wear clean and looked neat it’s fine.

But it wouldn’t be right to wear a pair that are torn, ripped, or looking real grungey. Then you wouldn’t be presentable.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

I would think that if the jeans wear clean and looked neat it’s fine.

But it wouldn’t be right to wear a pair that are torn, ripped, or looking real grungey. Then you wouldn’t be presentable.

I agree with you latter point, however according to the last couple of posts, you cannot have that view point because you don’t have the “right” to say what is “presentable” and what is not. In fact the maintain that you cannot even decide what is right or wrong, because they say it is not up to you.

I agree with you, but others don’t seem to get it.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

Good point!

I’m always amused at the “would you wear jeans to a wedding?” comparison. As much as God deserves all our respect, last time I checked, Sunday morning Mass wasn’t a black tie occasion. Even the most conservative people don’t seem to wear cocktail dresses, tuxedos, ballgowns or white tie and tails to Mass.

And no, I don’t wear jeans to Mass, or anywhere else, for that matter. I might make an exception for horseback riding.

Even the most conservative people don’t seem to wear cocktail dresses, tuxedos, ballgowns or white tie and tails to Mass.

According to your logic you have just made a judgement on someone. You have drawn a disticntion between who is “conservative” and those who are not. Now… of course there can be distinctions drawn.

I think the wedding analogy is completely valid, I don’t know why you are amused at it In fact no one has really satisfied that analogy with a logical rebuttle. It is altogether valid. I think to say “well, God know my heart, he is satisfied” we are very comfortable on assuming what God is satisfied with and what he is not satisifed with, I think we need to avoid this kind of logic. This is not about vanity, this is not about “judging” someone. It is about people who have no desire to properly dispose their exterior. Then they write it off as vain or petty.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

I agree. Discretion is important. I also agree that opinions cloud the correct application of fc.

I think this was very well put! Thank you!

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

According to your logic you have just made a judgement on someone. You have drawn a disticntion between who is “conservative” and those who are not. Now… of course there can be distinctions drawn.

I’m not judging anyone; I’m just saying I’ve never seen anyone wear ballgowns or white tie/tails to Mass. My church has all kinds of people in it, and I’ve never seen anyone there (or in any other church) in formal attire (unless it was for a wedding Mass, and not so much, even then).

I think the wedding analogy is completely valid, I don’t know why you are amused at it In fact no one has really satisfied that analogy with a logical rebuttle. It is altogether valid.

Then I’ll have to assume either that you wear white tie/tails to Mass, or that weddings where you live are a whole lot less formal than where I live.

I think to say “well, God know my heart, he is satisfied” we are very comfortable on assuming what God is satisfied with and what he is not satisifed with, I think we need to avoid this kind of logic.

You must be thinking about some other poster, because I never said that.

This is not about vanity, this is not about “judging” someone. It is about people who have no desire to properly dispose their exterior. Then they write it off as vain or petty.

I never said that, either.

Some folks seem to think we should wear the same attire to Mass as we would wear to a wedding, because God deserves our best. Well, God does deserve our best, and anything else we have to offer, but our “best” might still be inappropriate for Mass.

Let’s say I had a pashmina swimsuit shot through with 24K gold threads and trimmed with 1-carat diamonds. If I owned such a garment, it would definitely be my “best”, but it would still be wildly inappropriate for Mass.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

I’m not judging anyone; I’m just saying I’ve never seen anyone wear ballgowns or white tie/tails to Mass. My church has all kinds of people in it, and I’ve never seen anyone there (or in any other church) in formal attire (unless it was for a wedding Mass, and not so much, even then).

Then I’ll have to assume either that you wear white tie/tails to Mass, or that weddings where you live are a whole lot less formal than where I live.

You must be thinking about some other poster, because I never said that.

I never said that, either.

Some folks seem to think we should wear the same attire to Mass as we would wear to a wedding, because God deserves our best. Well, God does deserve our best, and anything else we have to offer, but our “best” might still be inappropriate for Mass.

Let’s say I had a pashmina swimsuit shot through with 24K gold threads and trimmed with 1-carat diamonds. If I owned such a garment, it would definitely be my “best”, but it would still be wildly inappropriate for Mass.

Then I’ll have to assume either that you wear white tie/tails to Mass, or that weddings where you live are a whole lot less formal than where I live.

That may not be a good idea, since I only said the ANALOGY is valid, i didn’t say that people have to wear the same things they wear to a wedding as they to mass, so this in fact it would be a false assumption. Allow me to expound on my point of the validity of the “wedding analogy”. The fact is that most people would have a different mindset and would dress approprietly for a wedding why is this? Now, my point is, that if people can do that for a wedding why can they not do it for mass?

Some folks seem to think we should wear the same attire to Mass as we would wear to a wedding, because God deserves our best. Well, God does deserve our best, and anything else we have to offer, but our “best” might still be inappropriate for Mass

Agreed!!

Let’s say I had a pashmina swimsuit shot through with 24K gold threads and trimmed with 1-carat diamonds. If I owned such a garment, it would definitely be my “best”, but it would still be wildly inappropriate for Mass.

So we must define our terms, I would agree if you wore that, it would be inappropriate. When I say “best” this assumes that a person already has an idea of what is inappropriate and what is “appropriate”, but if a person does not know what is appropriate is, then I will explain.

“Appropriatness”: deals with that which is modest and is not a near occasion of sin. It is not revealing, whether that be, “lowcut” or to little of clothing. Also, it should not be so tight that every detail and curve on your body is revealed in that way. So modesty is a big point. Also dressing to suit the occasion or event.

“Best”: is looked at in contrast to what is considered by our conventions and norms to be casual clothes: jeans, t-shirts, sneakers, shorts, etc. Clothing that is more formal than this would be, like slacks, a nice collard shirt maybe a tie, and dress shoes. That is what I mean by formal. Not to the extent in which you are “clearly” distracting, such as a wedding dress or a tuxedo with a knights of columbus cape and various ceremonial objects attached to their clothing.

You must be thinking about some other poster, because I never said that.

I never said that, either

I never intended to accuse you or imply that you did say those things. I apologize for the apparent confusion. That was a response to other poster who share a similar view.

God Bless You