Doctines on Mary "not in the Bible."

[onenow1]

Hello, thanks for your pleasant tone…

I understand that to be a description of Jesus
I don’t see Mary in that verse either

Hi, again Radical.

Indeed ! It goes without saying Jesus one of the Trinity had accepted,long before Mary said yes.

She was chosen by GOD, as GOD had chosen Abraham, and Moses, and many prophets before her.

She said yes to God ! Eve was duped by the devil !

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received His flesh, blood, and bone?
He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh. Just as Adam said similarly in: >

Genesis 2:23 Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

Here’s a couple of questions for you Rad; who was the first person to call Mary Blessed ?

Would it be to much of a stretch for you to believe God honored Mary ? He did you know !

You might want to ask yourself Rad, why did Jesus choose Mary ?

God bless

 

[Radical]

How can it be both Israel and the Church?

the same way that all believers are children of Abraham (Galations 3:7)

Israel is not the Church or vice-versa. Israel “gave birth to” Christ, but it (obviously) did not give birth to all believers (or even many believers). And, Christ gave birth to the Church, not the other way around. .

your inconsistency is striking…when you want to deny that the woman represents the children of God, you assert that Israel did not give birth to all believers. In contrast, you aren’t bothered by your belief that Mary gave birth to but one individual (who didn’t actually pass through her birth canal)…which means of course that she didn’t give birth to all believers. Also, Israel gave birth to Mary…not the other way 'round.

So, I can only think of one person who has consistently been called both the Mother of Christ and the Mother of believers in Christ, and that is Mary

that venerators have given Mary the title of “Mother of believers” centuries after her death and after Revelation was penned doesn’t determine what the author of Revelation meant…it only establishes what the venerators have come to believe.

 

[Radical]

The question is not whether or not Israel or the Church can bear children; it is whether they could bear a specific Child.

is that why Jesus is called the son of David?..did David father the specific child?

It is actually more than obvious that this Woman CANNOT be Eve because Eve was not at enmity … with the devil. Eve was the devil’s collaborator in bringing sin into the world.

1. the verse talks about enmity being put in place (in the future)
2. it would seem that by your reasoning, Peter (once he is told by Christ to, “Get behind me Satan”) would forever more be a collaborator of Satan

 

[LOCO]

If the Church and/or Israel couldn’t conceive and bear, then Mary, who is but one member of the Church and/or Israel, would be even more incapable

You mean who was the “woman” of Gen 3:15…at a time when there was only one woman who existed? I can’t help but note that at verse 12 Adam blames the “woman” and that woman is Eve. At verse 13 God addresses the “woman” and that woman is Eve. At verse 16 God addresses the “woman” and that woman is Eve. So then, when God mentions the “woman” at verse 15, I have to conclude that it is Eve yet again…it seems more than obvious from over here.

“I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”

Whose seed are they referring to?

Not Eve’s, all of Eve’s children carried the stain of ‘original sin’.
Mary was born without ‘original sin’ by the Grace of our God alone.

Eve betrayed God.
Mary obeyed God.

Only Mary’s seed (Jesus) shall crush Satans head.

 

[Cat_Herder]

is that why Jesus is called the son of David?..did David father the specific child?

No, which is why the Woman cannot be (only) Israel, and also why your objection (1) fails. The Jews who did not accept Jesus had no part in crushing the serpent. In fact they participated in striking at Jesus’s heel by bringing about His crucifixion (although they are not to be blamed for it.)

1. the verse talks about enmity being put in place (in the future)

Precisely, and hence the Woman is not Eve.

1. it would seem that by your reasoning, Peter (once he is told by Christ to, “Get behind me Satan”) would forever more be a collaborator of Satan

Until Calvary the number of redeemed (those who were no longer collaborators in sin) could be counted on one hand. Enoch and Elijah were raptured without dying as Mary would be; Moses might have been assumed after his death as he is later seen with Elijah during the Lord’s transfiguration. That makes a total of four and Peter was not among them until later, probably either when the Lord breathed on him or when he received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[Radical]

No, which is why the Woman cannot be (only) Israel, and also why your objection (1) fails.

the woman represents the children of God…which isn’t only Israel…so obviously you don’t understand what I am saying

Precisely, and hence the Woman is not Eve.

that doesn’t follow…Eve had a future existence after the curse…she didn’t cease to exist at that moment

Until Calvary the number of redeemed (those who were no longer collaborators in sin) could be counted on one hand. Enoch and Elijah were raptured without dying as Mary would be; Moses might have been assumed after his death as he is later seen with Elijah during the Lord’s transfiguration. That makes a total of four and Peter was not among them until later, probably either when the Lord breathed on him or when he received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

are you kidding me?..this is what the Catholic Church teaches or are you making this up as you go along?

 

[Cat_Herder]

your inconsistency is striking…when you want to deny that the woman represents the children of God, you assert that Israel did not give birth to all believers. In contrast, you aren’t bothered by your belief that Mary gave birth to but one individual (who didn’t actually pass through her birth canal)…

Well that’s not what the Bible says…

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 1:16[/BIBLEDRB]

which means of course that she didn’t give birth to all believers. Also, Israel gave birth to Mary…not the other way 'round.

[BIBLEDRB]Rev 12:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Israel does not keep the testimony of Christ. Mary does, like all Christians, hence the Woman is not Israel and neither are her children. I think that is what the person you replied to was getting at.

that venerators have given Mary the title of “Mother of believers” centuries after her death and after Revelation was penned doesn’t determine what the author of Revelation meant…it only establishes what the venerators have come to believe.

Who is Rachel and why do Jews call her their mother?

 

[ClamDigger]

the same way that all believers are children of Abraham (Galations 3:7)

Exactly. Because there is a New Israel, which was born of Christ and is made up of new children of Abraham. The New Israel, born of Christ, is the Church. The Israel that Christ was born into is not the same as the New Israel. The first one denied Christ, bore him, and was not born of him. The second one proclaims him, did not bear him, and was born of him.

your inconsistency is striking…when you want to deny that the woman represents the children of God, you assert that Israel did not give birth to all believers.

How do the children of God give birth to Christ? We are born to Christ in baptism, not the other way around. That’s why we are the CHILDREN of God, and God is not our child. Your poor logic is shocking.

In contrast, you aren’t bothered by your belief that Mary gave birth to but one individual (who didn’t actually pass through her birth canal)

“But one individual”? Do you realize who you speak of? And, just because a child isn’t born through the actual birth canal does not mean he was not born of his mother. Are women who have caesarean sections not mothers? Are their children not born?

…which means of course that she didn’t give birth to all believers.

She is the spiritual mother, not the physical mother, just as Christ is the spiritual father, not the physical father.

Also, Israel gave birth to Mary…not the other way 'round.

Also, Israel gave birth to Christ, not the other way 'round, so does that mean that Christ is not the father of the Church? I don’t think the Woman of Revelation represents Israel in any sense. At all. You are the one who came to that conclusion, not me.

that venerators have given Mary the title of “Mother of believers” centuries after her death and after Revelation was penned doesn’t determine what the author of Revelation meant…it only establishes what the venerators have come to believe.

And many of these same “venerators” were at least a century before the Biblical canon was established. These same “venerators” were also the same people who established the Biblical canon. So, you can trust them to establish the 27 books that make up the New Testament, but you can’t trust them to be it’s interpreters. Talk about inconsistency.

 

[wolf_rebel]

First let me start by saying that i was once Catholic and now i am a born again Christian.
-The subject about Mary is very heart felt, cause at one time i felt like every Catholic i see defending Mary. I understand their passion, truly i do, but i stress that i now see the truth, and hope to make light of what i see now.
-I will not bring down Mary to start with, She was a God fearing woman of faith, to imagine being asked to be the mother of our savior, must have been a tremendous honor. Yet thats all that she was. She was human like you and I, but was asked to have the birth of her savior, as well as ours.

• I believe in following scripture because as your priest put it “This is the word of the Lord” if it is the word of God then it is infallible. Dogmas i strongly disagree with, because it is made by the Pope and is the Basis of your faith, when i believe the bible should be the basis.
  -To start off i cannot understand how dogmas contradict the bible. To start of in the bible (Exodus 20:4 quotes"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me) Yet in the Catholic Catechism you completely void the 2nd commandment and move to the 3rd.
• I see the fact that alot of people say Mary remained a Virgin. Now don’t get me wrong i agree she was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus, and he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, but to remain a virgin is not Biblically sound. We know of 4 step brothers of Jesus (Matthew 13:55 - Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?)
  -And my next is Mary did not live her entire life without sin, That is impossible she was Human just like you and I. To say different you are saying she is a God. Only God is capable of such a feat (Jesus Christ). The reason for this is that Jesus Died on the Cross as the perfect Sacrifice for our sins, Perfect blood had to be shed. He had to be without sin, and he was the only one capable of this feat. If you say Mary was without sin, then Jesus died on the cross for nothing. For no one can obtain their salvation into heaven without the blood sacrifice of our lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.") Jesus is the only exception because he is God.

(John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

Please my friends i do not wish to offend anyone i only wish to speak truths, if we can’t follow the bible, why do we have it? It is the ultimate source of information. It is the ultimate guide on how to live our lives and live in holiness.

 

[TrueLight]

First let me start by saying that i was once Catholic and now i am a born again Christian.
-The subject about Mary is very heart felt, cause at one time i felt like every Catholic i see defending Mary. I understand their passion, truly i do, but i stress that i now see the truth, and hope to make light of what i see now.
-I will not bring down Mary to start with, She was a God fearing woman of faith, to imagine being asked to be the mother of our savior, must have been a tremendous honor. Yet thats all that she was. She was human like you and I, but was asked to have the birth of her savior, as well as ours.

• I believe in following scripture because as your priest put it “This is the word of the Lord” if it is the word of God then it is infallible. Dogmas i strongly disagree with, because it is made by the Pope and is the Basis of your faith, when i believe the bible should be the basis.
  -To start off i cannot understand how dogmas contradict the bible. To start of in the bible (Exodus 20:4 quotes"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me) Yet in the Catholic Catechism you completely void the 2nd commandment and move to the 3rd.
• I see the fact that alot of people say Mary remained a Virgin. Now don’t get me wrong i agree she was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus, and he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, but to remain a virgin is not Biblically sound. We know of 4 step brothers of Jesus (Matthew 13:55 - Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?)
  -And my next is Mary did not live her entire life without sin, That is impossible she was Human just like you and I. To say different you are saying she is a God. Only God is capable of such a feat (Jesus Christ). The reason for this is that Jesus Died on the Cross as the perfect Sacrifice for our sins, Perfect blood had to be shed. He had to be without sin, and he was the only one capable of this feat. If you say Mary was without sin, then Jesus died on the cross for nothing. For no one can obtain their salvation into heaven without the blood sacrifice of our lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.") Jesus is the only exception because he is God.

(John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

Please my friends i do not wish to offend anyone i only wish to speak truths, if we can’t follow the bible, why do we have it? It is the ultimate source of information. It is the ultimate guide on how to live our lives and live in holiness.

Wait till the dogma of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix is dogmatically defined. Then you’ll really “have a cow” as they used to say when I was younger.

 

[ClamDigger]

First let me start by saying that i was once Catholic and now i am a born again Christian.
-The subject about Mary is very heart felt, cause at one time i felt like every Catholic i see defending Mary. I understand their passion, truly i do, but i stress that i now see the truth, and hope to make light of what i see now.
-I will not bring down Mary to start with, She was a God fearing woman of faith, to imagine being asked to be the mother of our savior, must have been a tremendous honor. Yet thats all that she was. She was human like you and I, but was asked to have the birth of her savior, as well as ours.

No one’s disagreeing with you…

• I believe in following scripture because as your priest put it “This is the word of the Lord” if it is the word of God then it is infallible. Dogmas i strongly disagree with, because it is made by the Pope and is the Basis of your faith, when i believe the bible should be the basis.

Oh, okay. So which dogmas are “made by the pope” and not made by God? Do you also disagree with the dogma that Jesus is the Son of God? Or that he rose from the Dead? Or that he is God the Son?

-To start off i cannot understand how dogmas contradict the bible. To start of in the bible (Exodus 20:4 quotes"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me) Yet in the Catholic Catechism you completely void the 2nd commandment and move to the 3rd.

When have we ever made an idol? Because we have statues of holy men and women in our churches? God asked that the Ark of the Covenant be made with golden statues of the Cherubhim on it in Exodus.18-19 and Solomon’s temple had statues of the Cherubhim as well as other figures in it in 1 Kings 6:23-35. So, obviously, statuary is okay so long as it is understood properly. We do not worship the wood, clay, or whatever else may consitute the crucifix, we worship the One who it represents.
Also, let me ask you something: Do you believe that the statue of, say, Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial is an idol? Are gravestones of family members idols because we use them to represent our loved ones who have died? Or do you only believe that statues of men and women who lived and died for God are idols?

• I see the fact that alot of people say Mary remained a Virgin. Now don’t get me wrong i agree she was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus, and he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, but to remain a virgin is not Biblically sound. We know of 4 step brothers of Jesus (Matthew 13:55 - Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?)

Must we go over this again? Jews used the word “brother” for any close relative, not just blood-brothers. This is obvious from passages like Genesis 14.14 in which Lot is referred to as Abram’s brother when he is actually his nephew. It’s also obvious from the fact that the 120 disciples in the upper room at Pentecost are referred to as the brethren in Acts 1.14-15… That is… unless you think that Mary somehow physically gave birth to all 120 disciples and apostles of Jesus, including the ones that are listed as having different mothers?
And, another thing, what about the ancient tradition that Joseph was married before marryign Mary and the “brothers of Jesus” were sons of Joseph only, and not of Mary? Where is anyone ever referred to as a “son of Mary”? Where is Mary ever referred to as the mother of anyone other than Jesus?

-And my next is Mary did not live her entire life without sin, That is impossible she was Human just like you and I.

Where is that in the Bible, that it is impossible to live without sinning? And where is it in the Bible that Mary sinned? Were you alive when Mary was on earth and did you witness her sin?

To say different you are saying she is a God.

We make her into a God by saying that God her Savior prevented her from sinning? Sounds like you’re confused.

Only God is capable of such a feat (Jesus Christ).

So, what sin do children who die in the womb commit, since (according to you) it is impossible to be alive without being a sinner? Or, are they gods?

The reason for this is that Jesus Died on the Cross as the perfect Sacrifice for our sins, Perfect blood had to be shed.

Which is why he died for our sins and not Mary…

He had to be without sin, and he was the only one capable of this feat.

Once again, where is it in the Bible that only Jesus was capable of not sinning to the exclusion of everyone else?

If you say Mary was without sin, then Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

Jesus still redeemed Mary, similar to the way he redeemed the souls of children who die in the womb. Or, did Jesus die for nothing because those children died without sinning?

For no one can obtain their salvation into heaven without the blood sacrifice of our lord Jesus Christ.

Everyone realizes that…

 

[MartinJordan]

First let me start by saying that i was once Catholic and now i am a born again Christian.
-The subject about Mary is very heart felt, cause at one time i felt like every Catholic i see defending Mary. I understand their passion, truly i do, but i stress that i now see the truth, and hope to make light of what i see now.
-I will not bring down Mary to start with, She was a God fearing woman of faith, to imagine being asked to be the mother of our savior, must have been a tremendous honor. Yet thats all that she was. She was human like you and I, but was asked to have the birth of her savior, as well as ours.

• I believe in following scripture because as your priest put it “This is the word of the Lord” if it is the word of God then it is infallible. Dogmas i strongly disagree with, because it is made by the Pope and is the Basis of your faith, when i believe the bible should be the basis.
  -To start off i cannot understand how dogmas contradict the bible. To start of in the bible (Exodus 20:4 quotes"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me) Yet in the Catholic Catechism you completely void the 2nd commandment and move to the 3rd.
• I see the fact that alot of people say Mary remained a Virgin. Now don’t get me wrong i agree she was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus, and he was conceived by the Holy Spirit, but to remain a virgin is not Biblically sound. We know of 4 step brothers of Jesus (Matthew 13:55 - Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother named Mary? And aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?)
  -And my next is Mary did not live her entire life without sin, That is impossible she was Human just like you and I. To say different you are saying she is a God. Only God is capable of such a feat (Jesus Christ). The reason for this is that Jesus Died on the Cross as the perfect Sacrifice for our sins, Perfect blood had to be shed. He had to be without sin, and he was the only one capable of this feat. If you say Mary was without sin, then Jesus died on the cross for nothing. For no one can obtain their salvation into heaven without the blood sacrifice of our lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.") Jesus is the only exception because he is God.

(John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

Please my friends i do not wish to offend anyone i only wish to speak truths, if we can’t follow the bible, why do we have it? It is the ultimate source of information. It is the ultimate guide on how to live our lives and live in holiness.

Non taken. Too many things here that need to be corrected.

Hope you’ll return one day. I’ll be praying for you.

MJ

 

[ClamDigger]

(Romans 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.") Jesus is the only exception because he is God.

Yeah, there is no one who does good by himself. However, Mary, through the grace of God, was able to do good, just as we are able to do good with God’s grace. Unless you think that bearing Christ and consenting fully to God’s will was not a good thing?

(John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

What does this have to do with anything that we’re discussing?

Please my friends i do not wish to offend anyone i only wish to speak truths, if we can’t follow the bible, why do we have it? It is the ultimate source of information. It is the ultimate guide on how to live our lives and live in holiness.

We do follow the Bible. May I ask you a question though? Why do you follow a book that was compiled by a bunch of “Mary-lovers” but reject their interpretation of it?

 

[ClamDigger]

Wait till the dogma of Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix is dogmatically defined.

May it happen soon!

 

[TrueLight]

May it happen soon!

 

[ClamDigger]

? What would be wrong with Mary being proclaimed Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix?

 

[TrueLight]

? What would be wrong with Mary being proclaimed Co-Redemptrix or Mediatrix?

Well, there are multiple threads debating that and I don’t want to go into a debate. This thread is doing just fine without me.

Sometimes I mean to stay out of it, but can’t always help myself.

 

[ClamDigger]

Well, there are multiple threads debating that and I don’t want to go into a debate. This thread is doing just fine without me.

Sometimes I mean to stay out of it, but can’t always help myself.

I just don’t see why it would make you sad for us to recognize Mary’s role in the redemption of mankind (through her participation with God in the Incarnation of Christ Our Savior) or that God chose her to be his conduit of grace to the world in the Incarnation of Christ, making her our Mediatrix.

 

[TrueLight]

I just don’t see why it would make you sad for us to recognize Mary’s role in the redemption of mankind (through her participation with God in the Incarnation of Christ Our Savior) or that God chose her to be his conduit of grace to the world in the Incarnation of Christ, making her our Mediatrix.

Simple answer: My focus is on Christ and his sacrifice, first and foremost.

I love Catholicism and I want to join the true Church, but my love of Catholicism is not greater than my fear of angering the Lord God Almighty.

But don’t worry, there is already someone who “schools” me every now and then in PM.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

First let me start by saying that i was once Catholic and now i am a born again Christian.

I’m a born again Christian as well. Welcome to the forums.

-I will not bring down Mary to start with, She was a God fearing woman of faith, to imagine being asked to be the mother of our savior, must have been a tremendous honor. Yet thats all that she was. She was human like you and I, but was asked to have the birth of her savior, as well as ours.

The bold and the underline; one of these things is not like the other.

• I believe in following scripture because as your priest put it “This is the word of the Lord” if it is the word of God then it is infallible. Dogmas i strongly disagree with, because it is made by the Pope and is the Basis of your faith, when i believe the bible should be the basis.

The basis of a Catholics faith is not the Pope and to be brutally honest it is not solely based on a book (the Bible) either. The basis of the Catholic faith is a Man, Christ Jesus and all that he handed on to the Apostles.

-To start off i cannot understand how dogmas contradict the bible. To start of in the bible (Exodus 20:4 quotes"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me) Yet in the Catholic Catechism you completely void the 2nd commandment and move to the 3rd.

Easy, Mary isn’t an idol and she isn’t worshipped. A

To say different you are saying she is a God.

Nope you are and it is at best bearing false witness and at worse blasphemy. Please cite official Catholic documents which says such or retract your statement.

(John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.)

Not sure why this verse was quoted. Are you suggesting that Catholic don’t believe this?

God bless