Doctrinal Issues

[Jonathan2]

Hello friends.
I’ve been reading my catechism and something is rather confusing.

I read that we should offer prayers for the dead so that they may be purged and be admissible in heaven, right? I’ve tried to find this theology or doctrine in the Bible and honestly, I can’t find either textual support for purgatory nor for the prayer for saints.

Somebody help me understand this, I pray!

 

[adf417]

Greetings and welcome to CAF

I hope this helps:

What Does the Catholic Church Teach About Purgatory? | Catholic Answers Tract

What the Early Church Believed: Purgatory | Catholic Answers Tract

Peace!!!

 

[FrancisFan43]

 

[Gorgias]

I’ve tried to find this theology or doctrine in the Bible and honestly, I can’t find either textual support for purgatory nor for the prayer for saints.

Two thoughts: first, not all doctrine must have explicit “textual support … in the Bible”. Jesus tells his apostles (and by extension, their successors) to preach His Gospel; He doesn’t tell them, “here – write a book and give it to people.”

Second, as you were reading the catechism, did you notice the footnotes for the section you were reading? Here’s what I’m seeing:

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439)S 1304; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial . 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)S 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

So, in just these footnotes, I see references to three councils, the writing of two popes, and at least five citations of Scripture.

With respect to “prayer for the dead”, we can point to 2 Maccabees, where that is clearly taking place, as well as St Paul’s request in 2 Timothy 1 that people pray for Onesiphorus, who appears to have died.

With respect to purgatory, I’d also point out that Revelation 21:27 reminds us that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” That speaks to a cleansing, doesn’t it?

 

[De_Maria]

Hello friends.
I’ve been reading my catechism and something is rather confusing. (doctrinal-issues).

I see that you don’t identify as Catholic. So, your background is “Bible alone” believer.
Am I right?

Bible alone believism is the major cause of confusion throughout Christendom.
It is the cause of the Protestant rebellion led by Martin Luther.
It is the cause of the Protestant splintering that has led to 66000 denominations with different interpretations of Scripture.

Catholicism does not subscribe to that view. Nowhere does Scripture say that all doctrine must be explicit in Scripture. But Scripture does say:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

I read that we should offer prayers for the dead so that they may be purged and be admissible in heaven, right?

Can you provide that part of the Catechism that you were reading so that we can
examine it thoroughly?

I’ve tried to find this theology or doctrine in the Bible and honestly, I can’t find either textual support for purgatory nor for the prayer for saints.

Both are there, just not explicit. For example, let’s switch gears and search for “the bible alone” or “Sola Scriptura” in the bible. You’ll find that it isn’t there.

Somebody help me understand this, I pray!

I’m so glad you used this sentence form.

You see, you have just used “pray” in the ancient form. Let me show you from
Scripture:

KJV Genesis 12:13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

To pray for something is merely a request. When Catholics pray to the Saints,
we are requesting their intercession. Something which they are duty bound to provide:

1 Timothy 2:1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Anyway, I hope that we have answered your prayer. I didn’t want to repeat the other responses. They went to the meat of your question. I tried to go a bit further and
tackle the source of your confusion, which is the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Bible alone.
The

 

[thistle]

Hello friends.
I’ve been reading my catechism and something is rather confusing.

I read that we should offer prayers for the dead so that they may be purged and be admissible in heaven, right? I’ve tried to find this theology or doctrine in the Bible and honestly, I can’t find either textual support for purgatory nor for the prayer for saints.

Somebody help me understand this, I pray!

Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints? | Catholic Answers Tract

 

[Wesrock]

While there are differences between the way the Catholic Church and Jews understand Purgatory, both do believe in it. This Jewish Encyclopedia article linked below explains some rabbinical support and provides some OT passages as their basis. One thing that stands out to me is the passage from Zechariah that’s quoted, which seems to use a similar analogy to what St. Paul says in 1 Cor. 3: 12- 15.

‘I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried’ [Zech. xiii. 9.]

Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1 Cor 3: 12-15]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

The other ancient and apostolic Churches (the Orthodox) also offer prayers for the dead and prayers for the intercession of the saints, for these belong to the Church’s most ancient practices.

 

[Dan_Defender]

With respect to “prayer for the dead”, we can point to 2 Maccabees

This. To the OP: if you haven’t seen this book in your Bible is because Luther took it out of the Catholic Bible to put together his Protestant Bible in the 16th century.

 

[Jonathan2]

I agree that purgatory is based on church traditions and precepts by our forefathers (in church history). What still confused me is the general lack of biblical support for it. In 2 Timothy 1, Paul is praying that God may have mercy of one of his co-workers. “2 Timothy 1: 16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.” He’s not dead, but is accounted as among the few who didn’t backslide when Paul walked with him.

The revelation text states expressly that nothing unclean will enter heaven, and the same Bible expressly refutes salvation by the faith or works of others people, in that “When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.”

The teaching contradicts biblical views on the dead. When a person dies, is there something like the soul which lives in and which can be prayed for? Here is the biblical text: “Ecclesiastes 9: 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”
Can someone who has died be rewarded with forgiveness or promotion to righteousness when they have “no portion or reward” of anything?

 

[Jonathan2]

I’ve seen it, though I’m still trying to harmonize the diverse Bible views.

 

[Jonathan2]

But can a tradition and practice, as ancient as it be, be used in the place of Bible truth?

 

[Jonathan2]

I take note that all doctrine should be biblically correct.

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Is it possible to substitute scripture with tradition?

 

[Minks]

Welcome to CAF, Jonathan2! Please ask as many questions as come to mind. Sometimes our discussions get pretty lively! Just hang in there! You might want to click on the magnifying glass, too, in order to see what else has been said over the years regarding your questions.

When you’re locked into the habit of going to the Bible first, you’re straitjacketed by the thoughts of men who formulated their thoughts one-thousand-500 years after Christ walked the earth, showing, teaching, questioning, drawing comparisons, preparing for His delivery of our souls to Heaven through the greatest sacrifice mankind has ever imagined, to fulfill the Word of His Father.

To understand how Catholics think—how we have come to our beliefs—please make every effort to wipe your mind blank of anything and everything that you’ve been taught. Imagine yourself as one of the Gentiles, knowing almost nothing about God or Christ, and even less about the OLD Testament.

You need to imagine yourself drawn to this scattered band of apostles, tending to believe them, but also thinking they’re a bit overboard, as in nutty fruitcake. (Ahem! Like many non-Catholics view Catholics now! ) ‘Remember? When you were a kid and some of the really old aunts and uncles got to bickering over what they remembered about their great-grandparents and great-uncles?

Lol! Magnify that by about a billion and you get an idea of how beliefs became convoluted over the centuries. Learn about the customs in the Jewish circles because The Holy Family and most of the apostles were Jews. Steep yourself in their ways so that you can see yourself living within the days of a Biblical painting. Forget whatever you’ve heard about Christianity and the Bible. Learn it first person, within the midst of Christ’s apostles.

 

[Minks]

Now that you’ve discarded everything you knew, find the answers in the Bible to these questions. What happened that Christ’s Jewish followers turned away from Him in disgust, muttering about “hard sayings”? Did Christ really mean that they and we are to eat His Body and drink His Blood? When was the first Mass?

I’m sorry. I must suddenly leave. Fellow CAFers, please walk Johnathan through as a newcomer Gentile when the apostles still lived, getting to where you answer his questions.

 

[DeSales111]

You will also not find a table of contents in the Bible nor any command by Jesus to compile one. And one thing for sure not found in the Bible is the command for man to found thousands of competing churches that are miles apart on doctrine. But these facts get overlooked by most Protestants as if it doesn’t matter.

Be fair Johnathan, you say “you” can not find the theology or textual support for purgatory, yet we find it as plain as day in several verses of Scripture. THE ONLY reason you can not find the doctrine of purgatory is because you are interpreting with the notion that it is a Catholic invention. And that is not true, the doctrine of purgatory did get more defined and understood through time, and that’s because the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. The same can be said about the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, and the Bible itself took a very long time to sort and finalize.

So there IS verses concerning purgatory, it’s just a matter of interpretation. A Jehovah Witness or Mormon will be the same towards you as you are to us about this doctrine when you tell them that Jesus is the Son of God. You see it in Scripture, but they do not, their background teaches them not to see what you see in Scripture. And that is why Christ founded a Church and did not pass out Bibles to guide His flock.

 

[Gorgias]

What still confused me is the general lack of biblical support for it. In 2 Timothy 1, Paul is praying that God may have mercy of one of his co-workers. “2 Timothy 1: 16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.” He’s not dead, but is accounted as among the few who didn’t backslide when Paul walked with him.

Actually, it might not be a bad idea to look at that passage a bit more closely before you conclude “not dead”…

Paul wishes God’s mercy on two distinct groups in these verses:

• Not Onesiphorus himself, but the house of Onesiphorus. This is odd, wouldn’t you say? If Paul is giving props to Onesiphorus, then why is he wishing God’s mercy on the family of Onesiphorus, and not on the man himself?
• Onesiphorus does come into play a couple of verses later. But, what is it that Paul wishes on him? God’s mercy in that day (ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ), but what does that mean? That phrase can be found in the Gospels (cf Mt 7:22) and throughout Isaiah – it’s “the day of the Lord”! Paul is wishing Onesiphorus to receive God’s mercy at the eschaton…!!!

So, what we have here is intriguing: to Onesiphorus’ family, Paul wishes God’s mercy (presumably, in the here and now), but to the man himself, Paul makes a wish for his eternal life! I don’t think it’s reading too much into the text to suggest that Onesiphorus is already dead (while his family remains alive), and Paul is praying for his deceased supporter!

the same Bible expressly refutes salvation by the faith or works of others people, in that “When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.”

Hang on a second: you’re bringing Ezekiel into play here. The context is different. In that context, people were thinking that they were in exile because of their parents’ sins, and not their own sins. The prophet is telling them that it was their own sins that brought them to exile!

In any case, we never suggest that prayers for the dead save those in purgatory! Those who undergo purgation have already been judged to receive eternal life in heaven! So, if you’re unhappy with “prayers for the dead” because you think that the Church teaches that these prayers save others… then you misunderstand what the Church is teaching!

Can someone who has died be rewarded with forgiveness or promotion to righteousness when they have “no portion or reward” of anything?

Prayers for the dead do not result in “reward” – their names are already written in the Book of Life! But, as you point out, Revelation tells us that they cannot enter heaven until they are perfected! That’s all purgation is – cleansing!

 

[Cathoholic]

Hey Jonathan2. Welcome to CAF!

There is an eternal dimension to our sin because we sin against not merely part of God. We sin against God.

So in that sense sin “keeps on giving”.

We could never pay a FULL account for our sins.

That being said, there is also a temporal dimension to our sins. A dimension that WITH CHRIST, we can and MUST pay.

God is perfectly merciful.
But God is perfectly just too.

So united to Jesus Christ, there can and must be an account paid for EVERY wrong word we utter.

If that is true, how much more wrong actions with those words.

And unless we are completely clean, we cannot enter that Holy City.
The Holy City of the New Jerusalem of Heaven with the Beatific vision.

Therefore since not all are purified in this life, there is obviously purification in the next life (for those in Christ).

Remember also time and space are creations.

The people in the next life who are in grace, yet are in need of some purification are now . . .
. . . Out of time to pray (or fast, or give alms) for themselves.

Thus they are dependent upon Christ working with and through others at that point.

Hope this helps Jonathan2.

God bless.

Cathoholic

MATTHEW 12:36-37 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment
men will render account for every careless word they utter;
37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

REVELATION 21:22-23, 27 22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. . . .
27 But nothing unclean shall enter it,
nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This being “out of time” to pray, fast, give alms, evangelize, etc. to expiate sins after death is exactly WHY the Israelites fasted for Saul and Jonathan after they died.

2nd SAMUEL 1:11-12 11 Then David took hold of his clothes, and rent them; and so did all the men who were with him; 12 and they mourned and wept
and FASTED until evening FOR Saul and FOR Jonathan
his son and for the people of the LORD and for the house of Israel,
because they had fallen by the sword .

If Saul and Jonathan are in Heaven (or at least, the bosom of Abraham at this point), no fasting is needed.
If Saul and Jonathan are in the Hell of eternal condemnation, no fasting will help them.
The Hebrews had at least a rudimentary correct understsnding of this.

It must be noted. In Christ you can pay an account in this life and go straight to Heaven. You do not need to go to Heaven via Purgatory.

(Scripture emphasis above mine.)

 

[po18guy]

Which bible are you using? 66 books or 73? Huge difference.

But, your bible does have 1 Corinthians 3:10-14, right? After we die, our work will be judged. If a man’s work is good, it will remain. If not, it will burn up, but the man himself will be saved - but only as though passing through fire.

The refiner’s fire - purification.

Prayers for the dead: 2 Maccabees, and 2 Tim 1:15-18 in which Paul offers prayers for the deceased Onesiphorus.

But WAIT!!!

Where does the bible say that everything we believe must be found in the bible? The bible itself states in several places that it is an incomplete record.

Huh???