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manualman
Guest
So Jesus got it wrong? Matthew seems pretty clear on the matter to me. Please explain under what circumstances Jesus can be over-ruled in an area where he directly instructed us!
Doctrinal wars? Both sides fire over Communion for divorced, remarried
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Joe_5859
Guest
Wow, speaking of doctrinal wars, there are now threebooks coming out just before the Synod that refute Card Kasper’s position:
“Remaining in the Truth of Christ” (Cards Muller, Burke, Brandmuller, De Paolis and Caffarra)
“The Gospel of the Family” (Card Pell does the intro)
“Marriage: Theological and Pastoral Considerations” (Cards Ouellet and Scola)
These things have a tendency to work themselves out. 
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Brandon_Cal
Guest
I understand that this practice currently exists in the Orthodox Church, but I was unaware that it has historically existed in the Catholic Church (i.e. in Western Tradition). Could you point me to some reading? Thanks!
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Reclaim
Guest
I personally think that the differing views on the indissolubility of marriage will always remain the biggest factor in any possible reunion with the Orthodox churches.
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McCall1981
Guest
Yeah, this is good. But all that really matters is the apostolic exhortation that comes out after all of this. And all that really matters for the apostolic exhortation is what the Pope thinks, and that is what is worrying.
I can’t even imagine a whole year-and-a-half more of this
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Joe_5859
Guest
I don’t think it matters so much what the Pope thinks but what he does. And, papal infallibility being what it is, I don’t think he’ll be teaching heresy anytime soon.Yeah, this is good. But all that really matters is the apostolic exhortation that comes out after all of this. And all that really matters for the apostolic exhortation is what the Pope thinks, and that is what is worrying.
I can’t even imagine a whole year-and-a-half more of this
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Seraphim73
Guest
It is a historical fact that second and third marriages were allowed. Popes accepted this practice for many many centuries. There are many ancient canons dealing with the issue. So I guess if you want to make that argument I suppose it’s possible that every pope for at least 600 years got it wrong. Not sure how well that jives with modern Catholic teaching.
The basis, as I already explained, is the concept of economia. I’ve also explained that the second and third marriages were considered sinful and carried escalating penances. But the penitents were allowed back to Communion after their penances were complete.
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McCall1981
Guest
Very good point
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Seraphim73
Guest
But according to Catholic teaching I thought the entire Church was the “Catholic” Church and not just the Latin? During the first thousand years were the Eastern patriarchates not part of the Catholic Church?I understand that this practice currently exists in the Orthodox Church, but I was unaware that it has historically existed in the Catholic Church (i.e. in Western Tradition). Could you point me to some reading? Thanks!
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Seraphim73
Guest
Yes but I don’t think you can call the idea of allowing a second and third marriage as a concession heresy. If so you had some 600 years of heretical popes.
Mark121359
Well-known member
I agree with you. And then there’s the apparent stories circulating about the demotion or exile of Cardinal Raymond Burke. He has been very outspoken about his opposition to German Cardinal Walter Kasper’s views on divorced and remarried Catholics. And there is even questions whether he’ll even attend this synod. It’s reported that he has collaborated with Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Muller and three other cardinals in writing a book that will be released October 1, warning the Synod not to relax nor change Church teachings regarding Communion to divorced and civilly remarried people. The timing of his “demotion” or “exile” is concerning.Things are getting really scary
Is Kasper saying the Pope agrees with him here?
wdtprs.com/blog/2014/09/the-possible-demotion-of-card-burke-wherein-fr-z-rants/
nation.foxnews.com/2014/09/17/report-pope-plans-exiling-conservative-catholic-hero-cardinal-raymond-burke
catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3370/reports_cardinal_burke_to_be_demoted_removed_as_prefect_of_the_supreme_tribunal.aspx
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=22626
patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2014/09/report-cardinal-burke-demoted/
breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/09/17/Pope-Plans-on-Exiling-Conservative-Catholic-Hero-Cardinal-Burke
commonwealmagazine.org/blog/francis-about-decapitate-cardinal-burke-orjust-give-him-new-job
Peace, Mark
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McCall1981
Guest
The CDF begs to differ.It is a historical fact that second and third marriages were allowed. Popes accepted this practice for many many centuries. There are many ancient canons dealing with the issue. So I guess if you want to make that argument I suppose it’s possible that every pope for at least 600 years got it wrong. Not sure how well that jives with modern Catholic teaching.
The basis, as I already explained, is the concept of economia. I’ve also explained that the second and third marriages were considered sinful and carried escalating penances. But the penitents were allowed back to Communion after their penances were complete.
doctrinafidei.va/muller/rc_con_cfaith_20131023_divorziati-risposati-sacramenti_en.html
“The Council of Trent confirmed the doctrine of the indissolubility of sacramental marriage and explained that this corresponded to the teaching of the Gospel (cf. DH 1807). Sometimes it is maintained that the Church de facto tolerated the Eastern practice. But this is not correct. The canonists constantly referred to it as an abuse. And there is evidence that groups of Orthodox Christians on becoming Catholic had to subscribe to an express acknowledgment of the impossibility of second or third marriages.”
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McCall1981
Guest
Yes, Burke’s demotion is definitely concerning, but keep in mind that Cards Muller, Pell, Ouellet (and others) have also contributed to books refuting Card Kasper’s proposals, and they are doing fine.
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Seraphim73
Guest
The Council of Trent is new in ecclesiastical terms. I’m not sure how you can say it wasn’t tolerated when we were in communion the entire time. Was the pope during the first thousand years not infallible when teaching ex cathedra? Did he not have universal jurisdiction as he does today? You also have in at least the case of Pope Hadrian an explicit acceptance of the canons of Trullo which include penances for second and third marriages. You also had papal legates at that council and none of them raised any protests at the inclusion of that canon.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I’m as big a fan of Cardinal Burke as the next conservatively-minded Catholic, but (provided this rumor turns out to be true) I wouldn’t interpret it as having anything to do with the Synod in particular. Burke was removed from the Congregation for Bishops before Cardinal Kasper ever brought up this issue. And there will be plenty of other cardinals at the Synod who agree with Burke on the issue (including the head of the CDF). My guess is that it would have more to do with a personality clash than anything. But, of course, the Pope can fill any curial position as he sees fit, and he doesn’t need to explain his decisions to any of us. I’m sure Cardinal Burke will humbly and obediently go wherever he is sent.
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Vanny
Guest
I am in the same boat as Loralael and Seraphim,
My husband and I have been married 21 years. We have a great marriage.
My husband was married very young, and his first wife left him over his objections(due to no-fault divorce!) he remarried me three years later. I have never been married before. He was a devout Baptist, me had become a ELCA Lutheran from evangelicalism. We now belong to the WELS Lutheran Church. Due to my pro-life pro family beliefs I found myself reading a lot about Roman Catholicism and was very drawn to the Catholic Church (although there are still things I disagree with. Hubby was too, which is a miracle really. However I discovered about the annulment process not only being long and arduous but also costly. As we have two boys I felt it was certainly better to stay together and raise them in our current church in a Christian home. I couldn’t see how God would want us to separate.
I do agree that divorce and remarriage has been seriously abused in our anything- goes society but I’m liking the Orthodox view on the matter, which is that there are exceptions.
The closest Orthodox church is over 200 miles away from our house, though.
My husband and I have been married 21 years. We have a great marriage.
My husband was married very young, and his first wife left him over his objections(due to no-fault divorce!) he remarried me three years later. I have never been married before. He was a devout Baptist, me had become a ELCA Lutheran from evangelicalism. We now belong to the WELS Lutheran Church. Due to my pro-life pro family beliefs I found myself reading a lot about Roman Catholicism and was very drawn to the Catholic Church (although there are still things I disagree with. Hubby was too, which is a miracle really. However I discovered about the annulment process not only being long and arduous but also costly. As we have two boys I felt it was certainly better to stay together and raise them in our current church in a Christian home. I couldn’t see how God would want us to separate.
I do agree that divorce and remarriage has been seriously abused in our anything- goes society but I’m liking the Orthodox view on the matter, which is that there are exceptions.
The closest Orthodox church is over 200 miles away from our house, though.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Right. Pell is even one of the cardinals hand-picked by Francis to be part of his Council of Cardinal advisers, and Francis also picked him to head up the important new Secretariat for the Economy.
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Seraphim73
Guest
I couldn’t afford to pay for the annulment but the diocese had an assistance program for people unable to pay. They didn’t charge me anything for the annulment. Maybe your local Catholic diocese has a similar program. Also there are lots of reasons for an annulment. Have you actually discussed your situation with a priest? You wouldn’t be received until Easter next year anyway so that may be plenty of time to get the annulment approved. You could of course attend mass until that time.
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McCall1981
Guest
Also, please see the Catholic encyclopedia on divorce:It is a historical fact that second and third marriages were allowed. Popes accepted this practice for many many centuries. There are many ancient canons dealing with the issue. So I guess if you want to make that argument I suppose it’s possible that every pope for at least 600 years got it wrong. Not sure how well that jives with modern Catholic teaching.
The basis, as I already explained, is the concept of economia. I’ve also explained that the second and third marriages were considered sinful and carried escalating penances. But the penitents were allowed back to Communion after their penances were complete.
newadvent.org/cathen/05054c.htm
3 (b) Tradition and the Historical Development in Doctrine and Practice
“The doctrine of Scripture about the illicitness of divorce is fully confirmed by the constant tradition of the Church.”
"The practice of the faithful was not indeed always in perfect accord with the doctrine of the Church. On account of defective morality, there are to be found regulations of particular synods which permitted unjustifiable concessions. However, the synods of all centuries, and more clearly still the decrees of the popes, have constantly declared that divorce which annulled the marriage and permitted remarriage was never allowed.
and 3 (c) Laxer Admissions and their Correction
“Whilst the popes constantly rejected absolute divorce in all cases, we find some of the Frankish synods of the eighth century which allowed it in certain acute cases. In this regard the Council of Verberie (752) and Compiègne (757) erred especially.” (These are local synods, not ecumenical synods)
“If these (local) canons were really intended in any other sense, then they are contrary to the general doctrine of the Church.”
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Seraphim73
Guest
Also can you cite any of these canons from the first millennium?
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