Documents show Pius saved Jews from Nazis

[FightingFat]

I bet we don’t see this all over the media in the same way as the whole Bshp Williamson thing has been, just think how much good it would do it it was though?

catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000485.shtml

Some scholars, including Pinchas Lapide, the Jewish diplomat and historian, estimate that the Catholic Church under Pius saved between 700,000 and 850,000 Jews from the Nazis, mostly by either providing sanctuary or passage to safe countries but also by intervening, when practicable, to stop their round-up in occupied countries.

I should mention that I found this on Fr. John Zuhlsdorf’s wonderful blog WDTPRS wdtprs.com/blog/2009/02/catholic-herald-documents-show-pius-saved-jews-from-nazis/

 

[Adonis33]

Awesome!

 

[cthulhubryan]

For any who hold doubts about Pius XII please read The Myth of Hitlers Pope. Excellent work, well researched and presented.

 

[Soutane]

I offered to purchase that book and to send it to a Jewish poster who questioned Pius’ saving of approximately that number,but she declined.Why?

 

[cthulhubryan]

I offered to purchase that book and to send it to a Jewish poster who questioned Pius’ saving of approximately that number,but she declined.Why?

Sometimes, perhaps not in this case, willful ignorance is better for some that knowing an uncomfortable truth.

 

[ahollars]

Also, check out the movie, “The Scarlet and The Black” with Gregory Peck playing Monsignor O’Flarrety and Christopher Plummer as Nazi SS Colonel Kappler. It was released in the mid 80’s, and Hollywood actually got it right that time!

 

[josie_L]

I offered to purchase that book and to send it to a Jewish poster who questioned Pius’ saving of approximately that number,but she declined.Why?

I know to whom you are refering. I believe the book is written by a Rabbi. It should have least inspired some curiousity on her part, it’s not like she can claim the author was biased towards the Church.

 

[Kaninchen]

I know to whom you are refering. I believe the book is written by a Rabbi. It should have least inspired some curiousity on her part, it’s not like she can claim the author was biased towards the Church.

The book is online and was from the start of the row, why would one need another poster to send a copy? Indeed, why, on earth, would one want to give one’s address to another poster?

The book merely uses Lapide’s figures which doesn’t make it ‘evidence’ of anything other than Dalin’s use of Lapide’s figures. Requests to the poster involved for the page number of any other evidence in Dalin’s book for the 800,000 were ignored behind a wall of my not having any credibility because I wouldn’t let him send me a copy.

If you’re vaguely interested, nobody has ever been able to show that I’ve ever said anything ‘awful’ about Pius (other than saying once that I thought the question of whether he might have said more was ‘debatable’), neither have I ever suggested that he didn’t save Jews. I’ve merely taken issue with the 800,000+ figure for which the only evidence is Lapide’s statement.

If any other poster wants to discuss the issue, I’m willing to do so but I will not discuss it with the person concerned - who is on my ignore list - because I do not believe that it’s possible for us to have any kind of discussion on anything.

 

[josie_L]

The book is online and was from the start of the row, why would one need another poster to send a copy? Indeed, why, on earth, would one want to give one’s address to another poster?

The book merely uses Lapide’s figures which doesn’t make it ‘evidence’ of anything other than Dalin’s use of Lapide’s figures. Requests to the poster involved for the page number of any other evidence in Dalin’s book for the 800,000 were ignored behind a wall of my not having any credibility because I wouldn’t let him send me a copy.

If you’re vaguely interested, nobody has ever been able to show that I’ve ever said anything ‘awful’ about Pius (other than saying once that I thought the question of whether he might have said more was ‘debatable’), neither have I ever suggested that he didn’t save Jews. I’ve merely taken issue with the 800,000+ figure for which the only evidence is Lapide’s statement.

If any other poster wants to discuss the issue, I’m willing to do so but I will not discuss it with the person concerned - who is on my ignore list - because I do not believe that it’s possible for us to have any kind of discussion on anything.

What’s wrong with Lapide’s statement, that you cannot use it has a source, even if it happens to be “the only evidence”? I’m asking because I’m interested in knowing whether you have ever read what Lapides had to say.

Also, I would like to inform you of a foundation called “Pave the Way” it is a non-sectarian organization headed by a Mr. Krupp (He is Jewish).

This is their mission statement:

Paving the way to Peace by removing the obstacles between the religions and by initiating gestures of good-will.

They have a section on their website that is investigating the papacy of Pope Pius XII you might find interesting.

The website address is: www.ptwf.org.

God Bless.

 

[redrosetea]

He should be the patron of all that are persecuted for righteousness sake, the attacks against him have been scandalous, just like the attacks against Christ were

I hope he is canonized quickly

 

[Kaninchen]

What’s wrong with Lapide’s statement, that you cannot use it has a source, even if it happens to be “the only evidence”? I’m asking because I’m interested in knowing whether you have ever read what Lapides had to say.

Have you read the other threads?

I don’t quite understand why you feel it necessary to link to ‘Pave the Way’. Are you saying that pointing out that the only historical evidence for Lapide’s figures is Lapide and that the figure is not, actually, a possible figure, that it’s unsupported by any academic historian of the Shoah and so on, means that I’m somehow hostile to Catholics? Or that doing so means that, in some way, I’m hostile to Pius XII?

There’s not the slightest evidence on these boards of me being hostile to Pius XII (Pius IX yes, Pius XII no) beyond denying the 800,000 figure.

 

[josie_L]

He should be the patron of all that are persecuted for righteousness sake, the attacks against him have been scandalous, just like the attacks against Christ were

I hope he is canonized quickly

Then you might be interested in knowing what this Foundation is doing; it warms my heart to hear of such things. God Bless.

www.ptwf.org

 

[redrosetea]

Then you might be interested in knowing what this Foundation is doing; it warms my heart to hear of such things. God Bless.

www.ptwf.org

What a wonderful person this man is…He should be canonized someday…I know it wouldn’t happen because he is a different faith, but I am glad he has been honored during his lifetime

 

[Seamus_L]

The claims against Pius XII were always ridiculous, but some people never got over the fact that when he was Papal nuncio in Bavaria, he pointed out that the Communist revolutionaries there were largely Jewish.

 

[josie_L]

Have you read the other threads?

I don’t quite understand why you feel it necessary to link to ‘Pave the Way’. Are you saying that pointing out that the only historical evidence for Lapide’s figures is Lapide and that the figure is not, actually, a possible figure, that it’s unsupported by any academic historian of the Shoah and so on, means that I’m somehow hostile to Catholics? Or that doing so means that, in some way, I’m hostile to Pius XII?

There’s not the slightest evidence on these boards of me being hostile to Pius XII (Pius IX yes, Pius XII no) beyond denying the 800,000 figure.

Did I ever say you were hostile towards Pope Pius XII? And I only asked whether you read what Lapides had to say? It is your choice in the end whether you wish to read it or not. End of story.

I asked you to visit the Pave the Way foundation, because there happens to be a very good section on their website about the papacy of Pope Pius XII.

Again, God Bless.

 

[redrosetea]

The venom behind these attacks was really evil…I think one of the nasty books was written by an ex-priest???

 

[josie_L]

The venom behind these attacks was really evil…I think one of the nasty books was written by an ex-priest???

Actually ex-seminarian (but close), his name is John Cornwell. I believe he has retracted his view somewhat of Pope Pius XII as Hitler’s Pope, due mainly to the criticisms he received for his book. He also did some debating on the issue with a Sister Margherita Marchione, and she politely “kicked his ***.”

 

[Kaninchen]

Did I ever say you were hostile towards Pope Pius XII? And I only asked whether you read what Lapides had to say? It is your choice in the end whether you wish to read it or not. End of story.

That’s why I asked whether you’d read the previous threads - Lapide’s figures were the ones under discussion so I’d have thought it rather obvious that I’d read what Lapide had to say.

I asked you to visit the Pave the Way foundation, because there happens to be a very good section on their website about the papacy of Pope Pius XII.

I have read quite a bit about Pius over the years, and, as I said, the closest I’ve come to criticizing him was saying that the question of whether he could have said more was ‘debatable’ but I also commented that I considered that he was ‘between a rock and a hard place’ both in his ‘foreign affairs’ position (dealing with the threat of communism and fascism) under the previous Pope and during his Papacy.

 

[redrosetea]

I am glad Pius knew in his lifetime that he was respected around the world for his work

 

[josie_L]

That’s why I asked whether you’d read the previous threads - Lapide’s figures were the ones under discussion so I’d have thought it rather obvious that I’d read what Lapide had to say.

I have read quite a bit about Pius over the years, and, as I said, the closest I’ve come to criticizing him was saying that the question of whether he could have said more was ‘debatable’ but I also commented that I considered that he was ‘between a rock and a hard place’ both in his ‘foreign affairs’ position (dealing with the threat of communism and fascism) under the previous Pope and during his Papacy.

Then why didn’t you just come out and say it in your first and/or second post to me. All I was trying to figure out is if you read Lapides. Thank you I got my answer now.