Documents show Pius saved Jews from Nazis

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josie_L said:
Then why didn’t you just come out and say it in your first post to me. All I was trying to figure out is if you read Lapides. Thank you I got my answer now.
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You got involved in a conversation about me, remember?
 
I did’nt realize this until recently but there was an assassination attempt on Pius by the communists…The gun bounced off his pectoral cross and fell to the floor

Bishop Sheen was given this cross to wear…I heard about it from his program about Fatima…He also saw the miracle of the sun in the Vatican garden
 
josie_L said:
And I asked whether you read Lapides? You did not answer my question directly.
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I’m afraid you’ve put yourself in the middle of a long-running argument (on a number of previous threads) which took on the characteristics of a very hostile feud. The op mentions Lapide, you got into a conversation about me which led me to think that you knew more about it all than you obviously did.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’m afraid you’ve put yourself in the middle of a long-running argument (on a number of previous threads) which took on the characteristics of a very hostile feud. The op mentions Lapide, you got into a conversation about me which led me to think that you knew more about it all than you obviously did.
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O.k we’re getting somewhere, because at one point you lost me.
Good to know the air has been cleared. God Bless.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’m afraid you’ve put yourself in the middle of a long-running argument (on a number of previous threads) which took on the characteristics of a very hostile feud. The op mentions Lapide, you got into a conversation about me which led me to think that you knew more about it all than you obviously did.
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It was not a hostile feud.I disagreed with you and challenged your position to which you to took exception and umbrage.As to being on your ignore list,I have conversed with you on another subject and you replied,so I am surprised.I don’t know why I am even responding as you’ll never see this but I am i guess for the edification of other posters.When i offered to send you the book I had no idea that it was even on line,nor did you tell me at that time.Why would i wish to incur such an expense?I resent that you SEEM to be intimating that the purpose of my challenge to you was to secure your address.Please don’t flatter yourself.

Well,after all that did you read the book online?
 
Soutane said:
It was not a hostile feud.I disagreed with you and challenged your position to which you to took exception and umbrage.As to being on your ignore list,I have conversed with you on another subject and you replied,so I am surprised.I don’t know why I am even responding as you’ll never see this but I am i guess for the edification of other posters.When i offered to send you the book I had no idea that it was even on line,nor did you tell me at that time.Why would i wish to incur such an expense?I resent that you SEEM to be intimating that the purpose of my challenge to you was to secure your address.Please don’t flatter yourself.

Well,after all that did you read the book online?
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I myself did’t get the impression it was a hostile feud, so no worries. I hope though she has read the book, although from the looks of it I dont’t think she has. I myself haven’t read it, just a portion, that was viewable online. I do however intend to read it. I admire Pope Pius XII very much, I think we need to pray for this saintly man.
 
josie_L said:
I myself did’t get the impression it was a hostile feud, so no worries. I hope though she has read the book, although from the looks of it I dont’t think she has. I myself haven’t read it, just a portion, that was viewable online. I do however intend to read it. I admire Pope Pius XII very much, I think we need to pray for this saintly man.
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The question of reading the book or not is orthogonal to the issues, I’ve never criticized Pius and I’m not interested in pro-Pius hagiography on the one hand or anti-Pius scandal on the other.

The only question at issue at the time was the 800,000+ figure supposedly saved by Pius. The only evidence for this was a statement by Lapide, the poster concerned demanded that I read the book where the figure of 800,000 was supposedly proved. On consulting the book online, I discovered that the only support for the 800,000 figure was that Dalin quoted Lapide. When asked for any other evidence from the book that I may have missed, the poster concerned was completely unable to provide any citation and, of course, only had recourse to ‘you have no credibility’.

In fact, since he has not the slightest ‘evidence’ beyond touting a book that doesn’t do anything but quote Lapide, all he can do is shout that I have no credibility and infer a hostility on my part to Pius and a blind determination to regard a man (I’ve never criticized) badly. When he did that earlier on this thread, on ignore he went because the personal hostility was palpable.
 
Your loss.
The reasoning that you employ now that the quote was made by Lapide and that is what Rabbi Dallin quoted was never mentioned by you at the time of my challenge to you.Please don’t rewrite thread history.The thread is available to anyone who wishes to confirm my assertion.
 
Kaninchen said:
That’s why I asked whether you’d read the previous threads - Lapide’s figures were the ones under discussion so I’d have thought it rather obvious that I’d read what Lapide had to say.

I have read quite a bit about Pius over the years, and, as I said, the closest I’ve come to criticizing him was saying that the question of whether he could have said more was ‘debatable’ but I also commented that I considered that he was ‘between a rock and a hard place’ both in his ‘foreign affairs’ position (dealing with the threat of communism and fascism) under the previous Pope and during his Papacy.
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I think the question then should be what was he capable of doing under the circumstances, I don’t really care so much about what he could and did not say.
Although, from what I understood the Pope had to be somewhat silent on the issue, to prevent further persecution by the Nazis towards the Jews or converts to Catholicism from Judaism and the CC. I’m not sure if you looked at that website I gave you, but it has a lot of information pertaining to Pope Pius XII, it’s www.ptwf.org .
 
josie_L said:
I think the question then should be what was he capable of doing under the circumstances, I don’t really care so much about what he could and did not say.
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I think that will always be debatable because we can never know what would have happened had he behaved differently, obviously. It will always remain one of history’s ‘What if . . .?’ questions.

As to whether Pius was a ‘bad guy’ in some way - no, I think he did the best he thought he could do, he wasn’t ‘Hitler’s Pope’.
Although, from what I understood the Pope had to be somewhat silent on the issue, to prevent further persecution by the Nazis towards the Jews or converts to Catholicism from Judaism and the CC. I’m not sure if you looked at that website I gave you, but it has a lot of information pertaining to Pope Pius XII, it’s www.ptwf.org .
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If I were a Catholic, the questions I would be asking about Pius would not be about the few Jewish converts who were killed or saved but the millions of Catholics killed by the Reich - not because they were Catholics but because they were Polish ‘subhumans’.
 
Kaninchen said:
I think that will always be debatable because we can never know what would have happened had he behaved differently, obviously. It will always remain one of history’s ‘What if . . .?’ questions.

As to whether Pius was a ‘bad guy’ in some way - no, I think he did the best he thought he could do, he wasn’t ‘Hitler’s Pope’.

If I were a Catholic, the questions I would be asking about Pius would not be about the few Jewish converts who were killed or saved but the millions of Catholics killed by the Reich - not because they were Catholics but because they were Polish ‘subhumans’.
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I don’t understand what more Pius could have done, he had to ensure the safety of all Catholics (and Jews), including Poles, of course, but how was he to do this alone? He did what he could with what he had. The rest of the World was not exactly helpful during the first years of the war. And he was one of the few leaders of the World to speak up against Nazism before and during the War. There is evidence of this, documented even by the N.Y. Times.

He was and is considered by millions to be a holy and saintly man, and there are many people of different creeds fighting to bring back this man to a position of honour. The truth of his actions will speak louder than words.
 
Pius was doing all he could do dealing with the Nazis and everything he could under the radar of the Nazis. Lets be honest here if he was killed and the Catholic Church and the Vatican was obliterated no Jew’s would have been saved. He is an inspiration and is held in high esteem in our Parish and Diocese.
 
Here below is an English translation of a document discovered several years ago. It is the diary written by a Catholic nun, in late 1943, shortly after the Nazi occupation of Rome. (The original Italian appeared in 30 Giorni (30 Days) magazine, in 2006, but only now is getting publicity.)
The nun confirms that Pius XII “orders” her convent to open its doors, to take in the persecuted, including, specifically, Jews, and she actually lists the name of the people being taken in, and explicitly mentions that some are Jewish. Also remarkable is her awareness of the Holocaust (“a ruthless war against the Jews has begun…they wish to exterminate…”) and the passion of Pius XII: “The Holy Father Pius XII, of paternal heart, feels in himself all the sufferings of the moment…In this painful situation the Holy Father wants to save his children, also the Jews, and orders that hospitality be given in the convents to these persecuted.” We think this is incontestable, primary, wartime evidence of a “papal directive” from Pius XII to rescue Jews. —The Editor(Inside the Vatican Magazine)

See: 30giorni.it/us/articolo.asp?id=11037

The previously unpublished memorial of the Augustinian nuns of the convent of the Santi Quattro Coronati in Rome
Code: 
  VENERABLE CONVENT 
  OF THE SANTI QUATTRO CORONATI 
  Rome 
  
  [The last nine lines from 1942]   
  
  During the year no news of importance. We go ahead with the anxiety caused by the great war. Continuous frights because of nocturnal alarms. Lack of necessities. Bread, pasta, oil etc.
The Easter Station is nevertheless celebrated with the usual solemnity. The functions of Holy Week by means of the Irish students. Thus the solemnity of our sainted father Augustine, then of the Santi Quattro and we reach the year’s closure blessing the Lord who has saved us from so many dangers, because of the appalling war, because of the privations and preoccupations of all kinds. The Te Deum was sung thanking God who has protected us.
Code: 
  Anno Domini 1943 
  With the traditional small function of the procession with the Holy Child, a pious practice that assures divine blessing for us, this year begins amid the horrors of the war, privations of all kinds, and the uncertainty of the outcome of the war itself. 
  Providence assists us, and enables us to face all the difficulties, through the work on  sacred vestments and the washing of the church linen of the Pontifical Gregorian University, of the Pontifical Biblical Institute, of the Borromeo College, and other churches. Monsignor Respighi exerts himself as usual so that the liturgy of the Lenten station will be as solemn as always. The community can perform the spiritual exercises, and have the two sermons every week during Lent. So we approach Holy Week, and the functions of the Triduum take place. The Holy Sepulchre is visited by many faithful. We proceed with the same rhythm up until the solemnity of Saint Augustine which is celebrated with intense fervor. We approach the titular feastday of the Santi Quattro which is celebrated with pontifical vespers and the pontifical mass the morning of day 8, on which many read masses are celebrated. 
  Having arrived at this month of November we must be ready to render services of charity in a completely unexpected way. The Holy Father Pius XII, of paternal heart, feels in himself all the sufferings of the moment. Unfortunately with the Germans entry into Rome, which happened in the month of September, a ruthless war against the Jews has begun, whom they wish to exterminate by means of atrocities prompted by the blackest barbarities. They round up young Italians, political figures, in order to torture them and finish them off in the most tremendous torments. In this painful situation the Holy Father wants to save his children, also the Jews, and orders that hospitality be given in the convents to these persecuted, and that the cloisters must also adhere to the wish of the Supreme Pontiff, and, from the day of 4 November, we lodge the persons listed below up to the following 6 June: 
  from 4 November to 14, Mrs Bambas, wife of a political figure. The husband was hidden in another religious house and she wanted to reach him. 
  From 1 December to 27, all the Scazzocchio family of nine people. 
  From 1 December through all of the following February, the mother of Doctor Scazzocchio. These people were settled in the Chapter room, with the small room next to it, and the adjacent corridor. The meals are eaten in the refectory. 
  From 7 Decemebr to 23 January, Ravenna, Jewish (Rabbi) in the sacred vestments’ room. 
  From 15 December to 18 January, Mr Viterbo with father-in-law, Jews, only to sleep.
 
Milanomayor said:
Pius was doing all he could do dealing with the Nazis and everything he could under the radar of the Nazis. Lets be honest here if he was killed and the Catholic Church and the Vatican was obliterated no Jew’s would have been saved. He is an inspiration and is held in high esteem in our Parish and Diocese.
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Absolutely.However,some will NEVER be satisfied.
 
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