Does a person have to believe in literal burning hell to be Catholic

[Gorgias]

This is a bit off track but what exactly is it that “goes” to hell-the soul or the senses(IOW the brain)?

Now? The soul.
In the eschaton? The perfected body.

Also,can a persons soul choose to reject being with God but their will (mind,freedhoice) not?

Ie:is it known whether the will and the soul can be in contradiction?

That doesn’t seem to be possible. I think Aquinas would disagree that it could happen.

 

[Genesis315]

Title in this case means a right to require certain services for a certain period of time. For example, nowadays most people have an employer. In that case, the employer has title to a certain set of defined services from the employee, usually during a specific time frame. It may have an end date, it may end at will etc. The employer also has certain duties, in that case, to provide monetary wages. That is a title to services and we would all agree it was acquired justly (in this case by voluntary exchange). Title to services can also be sold and assigned–we see this nowadays most prominently in pro sports. Title to certain services of a player are traded or sold from one owner to another. There is nothing contrary to the natural law in any of this.

Following this logic, one could voluntarily grant title to all the services one human might reasonably render another for one’s whole lifetime, in exchange for the necessities of life being provided for one’s whole lifetime. There’s nothing per se immoral about this.

Furthermore, voluntary exchange is not the only form where title is acquired justly. For example, a person who refused to pay their bill at a restaurant could be required to wash dishes for an evening to pay it off–nothing wrong with this. A convicted criminal might be sentenced to a certain period of community service, or picking up trash alongside the road, etc. The US Constitution still provides for slavery in the cases of crimes. Again, nothing wrong with this. Theoretically, there could be a situation where the scope of services are broader and of longer duration.

As I mentioned though, title can also be acquired unjustly through things like kidnapping or other injustices. The services required were unreasonably harsh and backbracking, and necessities of life provided were insufficient. Human beings were treated like chattle, family relationships not respected, they were “bred,” etc. etc.

This is why the slavery that did not violate the natural law became known as “theoretical slavery” since it came to almost never exist at all. Again, the link in my earlier post shows how the moralists approached this question over time.

 

[rose321]

Come on, don’t deny the obvious…just a few examples

354- 430 AD St. Augustine teaches that the institution of slavery derives from God and is beneficial to slaves and masters.

650 AD Pope Martin I condemns people who teach slaves about freedom or who encourage them to escape.

1224- 1274 AD St.Thomas Aquinas defends slavery as instituted by God in punishment for sin, and justified as being part of the ‘right of nations’ and natural law. Children of a slave mother are rightly slaves even though they have not committed personal sin!|

1452 AD Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas on 18 June, 1452. It authorizes (King) Alfonso V of Portugal to reduce any “Saracens (Muslims) and pagans and any other unbelievers to perpetual slavery.

1493 AD Pope Alexander VI authorizes the King of Spain to enslave non-Christians of the Americas who are at war with Christian powers.

1548 AD Pope Paul III confirms the right of clergy and laity to own slaves

Interesting.

In order for any of this to be evidence, you would actually have to cite the passages where they did this.

Would recorded Historically documented, be evidence?
Showing passages where Jesus taught the total opposite? What not to do?

#3 - Slavery in these periods was often the only alternative to killing.

Could one say kindly maybe, Jesus might not agree with you?

#4 - We cannot sit here, several hundred years after the fact, and simply apply modernist thought to history while ignoring the context in which that history took place.

Church Leaders, did not hear Jesus Spoken Word in the 1st Century?
Hear Jesus Modernistic Thoughts?
Jesus Modernistic Alternatives, His Spoken Word to end slavery, inhumane atrocities?
Let those who have ears hear, I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, follow me, asking kindly did they?

Jesus, Apostles, John Baptist, other men/woman not out there defending and exposing the unrighteousness, injustice of forced slavery, by those who ruled over them also in pagan times?

What was Jesus modernistic alternative, modernistic thoughts, he sought to giving His Spoken Word for all to hear?
Jesus forced no one did he to accept His Spoken Word, in such pagan times did he?
Jesus knew those holding others in inhumane slavery or by force, will not end, slavery, but only increase slavery?
Destroying, forcing others, makes one not righteous does it?

Not to offend, but question examining only?
Slavery still exist today in modern times, does it not?
How did our modernistic thoughts or our ways work out?

Jesus modernistic alternatives thoughts given, 2,000 yrs ago, within His Spoken Word that slavery will only end, be accomplished how?

Changing our harden hearts of stone?
An Internal Change is needed first?
Change our thoughts within?
Change our ways?
Repent return to Me and I Will return to you.

Was this Jesus modernistic way?
Jesus modernistic alternative thoughts to end inhumane slavery, 2,000 yrs ago in such times of slavery and in pagan times?

Peace

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I cannot follow what you’re saying here. I don’t know if it’s a language barrier or what, but I just cannot follow your syntax…

Are you saying that Jesus was against slavery? I would agree given the principles he taught. Are you trying to say that Jesus is greater than modern thought, because I would agree completely… I guess I just don’t see the point you’re trying to make; I’m sorry.

 

[deMontfort]

For example: The biggest slave traffickers of the 17th century were the Dutch; who were Calvinist Protestants.

 

[rose321]

Are you saying that Jesus was against slavery? I would agree given the principles he taught. Are you trying to say that Jesus is greater than modern thought, because I would agree completely… I guess I just don’t see the point you’re trying to make; I’m sorry.

Respectfully sorry for ones poor communication and thank you for your kind reply in stating such.

Opinion only in pondering on, questioning, examining, early church fathers thoughts >> quoted and posted above, greatly surprised me.

Yes, I believe Jesus was against slavery.

There is not one>Ten Commandment>example only>>Thou shall not commit adultery, does not state this commandment >>only>>> applies for Woman to obey, not men, or kings does it?

God gave all Free Will did he not?

When it came to slavery, Jesus Spoken Word, gives us His modernistic ways in teaching, Jesus modernistic thoughts, he sought to lead and show the Way to end slavery, did he not?

Jesus knowing fully the root causes, of such inhumane works, inhumane deeds, forced slavery, creates, inhumane>>>> inequality rights, among Human Beings, also leads to the loss of >> innocent life>>>> steal’s the very Freedom and individual thoughts of others? Steals their property, their bodies? Thus Jesus freedom to speak the Truth was stolen, crucified?

All Life is sacred unto me in the blood, destroy not, is this not written?

No servant is greater then his master and no master is greater then his servant, is this not written?

Evidence proof, in what is written, through Jesus physically walk in life, Jesus came to serve not to be served right?
Jesus cured the ills, for free?
Defended the poor?
Stood up for the outcasts held also in slavery?
Jesus lived among those held in bondage or slavery in one form or another? Jesus cried with? Ate with? Stayed with? Walked among and laid down his life for his servants, his family, whom he thought of not as slaves nor forced them to accept him or his spoken word did he, pagans also?

Jesus greatest Master of all dearly Loved, served, cared for, provided for his servants needs when asked?

We are all called to serve, for the good of one another are we not?
Slavery is one sided and slavery is Beneficial to who only?

In ancient times a servant, was not looked upon as a slave, but was dearly loved like family and was cared for by his/her master he served and shared in good pleasures of the family, did they not? Remember the story of the Master asking Jesus to come and cure the ills of his servant?

We are all called to serve God yet when he walked the earth he sought not to make us his slaves nor forced anyone to accept or live by His Spoken Word did he?

Jesus taught did he not what Life was always created and meant to be?
To share in with God and to experience Love, Joy and Peace?

Those who were given much, their blessings were to be given as blessings to others. Thus God continues to bless?

Those who have been given much, boast not, for they will have much to answer for to their master will they not?

Peace

 

[Scoochy]

YES!!! See: The Conversion of Gloria Polo | Padre Peregrino

 

[ProdglArchitect]

When it came to slavery, Jesus modernistic ways, modernistic thoughts, teaching, he sought to end slavery, did he not?

Honestly, no, He didn’t. Not so far as we know at least. The NT doesn’t record anything about His teachings on slavery, if He had any teaching explicitly directed to it. We know that the Gospel is ultimately incompatible with slavery as it exists in the modern world, and i’m sure we can be certain He was against it; but as I tried to point out earlier, in the ancient world slavery was often the only alternative to death after your city was sacked. It’s a sad fact of what ancient cultures had to live with (and even modern cultures in some parts of the world), but slavery really was seen as the preferable alternative in those times.

That doesn’t make slavery good, and it doesn’t mean that Jesus / the Church was ever in favor of it, but when you live in a world where the choice was generally between taking/being taken as a slave, or killing/being killed, the morally superior choice would be the slavery option. (Man… that sentence is just… disgusting to write… the ancient world was really messed up >_>)

 

[rose321]

Honestly, no, He didn’t. Not so far as we know at least. The NT doesn’t record anything about His teachings on slavery,

Respectfully::slightly_smiling_face:slightly_smiling_face: opinion only his whole physical walk on earth testifies and within His Spoken word, along with his actions taken tells us otherwise, does it not?

Note when Jesus walked the earth there was no NT it did not exist till decades later, is this not true? Why does Jesus heavily quotes from his Holy Scriptures OT?

Repeats the Ten Commandments and Sermon on the mount, why?
Jesus heavily quotes from His great Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah and comes to fulfill the prophecies spoken about him by his great prophets?

Could it be because the Time had come, and what his His Prophet >Jeremiah 8:8>

Who did Jesus rebuke, identifying them in person, judging them that they were the children of their father of lies?

Let those who have ears hear, not about what we read is it? God Spoke, Spoken, since the beginning of time, he did not write long letters to those in whom he choose did he? But days are coming Jeremiah 31:31-34 has this prophecy come yet? I Will not man?

Time had come, Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance. God is now declaring to men that all people every where to repent”

On ignorance? Jesus commands his listening audience to search the scriptures?
Ephesians 4:18
Ezekiel 33:6, Hosea 4:6
Acts 17:30
James 1:5
1 John 4:1 Believe not every spirit…
Matthew 7:21:23
Luke 22:34 Forgive them for they know not what they do…
John 13:7
1 Peter 1:13-16

Right in the beginning? All Life is sacred unto to me, destroy not?

Question: Does one have to know God first, to know who is not of him?
Does one have to know God and when it is He, who is speaking?
Told are we not he is a great deceiver? Jeremiah 8:8?

Peace

 

[PetraG]

No disrespect,but I think it’s very flippant to assume what burns victims would do without asking them.

It’s easy to make your presumption when removed from the situation.

It’s a bit of a romanticised view to think I would rather physically be on fire for eternity then to face the spiritual realities of being separated from God.

That doesn’t of course in anyway reduce the torment of being separated from God.

Unfortunately there are situations in life where certain people are able to neither love nor are loved by anyone and no doubt this is a torture in its own rights,but literally burning…on fire…forever…,I can only assume that you have never been burnt in a fire.

I’ve worked with burn victims in hospitals.

I am willing to concede that being in total physical pain is the greatest torture that most people can imagine and also the way most people would choose to inflict pain in order to express hatred. Hell may actually include physical torment.

What I am surprised you are not conceding is that a human being eternally separated from the love of God would be worse off than a fish without water.

The difference (I think) is that we are very sensitive to physical comfort but take the love of God for granted. We are indifferent to the harm we inflict on ourselves when we turn from God. We imagine that losing the love of God is like the sun going down when it is actually like the sun going out.

Extreme cold burns, too, but it does not consume.

 

[PetraG]

Maybe people were at one time,but I’m not sure how much that works now.

It seems to me that the threat/fear of burning hell fire is not a very effective “evangelicals tool” anymore (at least not here in Australia).

The people it seems to “draw the most attention from” are people that are already Christians.

The threat of Hell incites imperfect contrition–sorrow for sins because of the fear of just consequences–but it is hard to imagine someone could have perfect contrition if they don’t appreciate the gravity of their sins in the slightest. If someone says, “If I commit a grave offense against my Maker with full knowledge of teachings concerning the gravity of what I am doing, I still haven’t done anything to deserve damnation,” they are refusing the first condition of contrition, which is facing up to the seriousness of one’s wrongdoing.

A parallel would be someone who weighs whether to drink and drive who doesn’t avoid it in spite of the legal penalty because they think the legal penalties are both unlikely and also totally disproportionate to the offense. Then they kill someone and say, “It was just an accident. How can I be held responsible?” Just because they choose to be clueless does not mean they are not responsible for killing someone when they got behind the wheel when they were too impaired to drive safely. They were told the seriousness of the offense and the just consequences for doing so. They chose to offend, anyway. The most hardened don’t even bother to consider that their victim was far more harmed than any punishment they will get.

 

[Rozellelily]

I see what you mean.

 

[russ1]

Here is the answer, IMO. God created a place to send the fallen angels and unrepentant sinners. If I end up there, it’s because I chose it. My torture will be the knowledge that I will live for eternity in that awful place, with those awful entities, raging at God.
If there is literal fire or some other temporal punishment, it is created there, by the damned. God does not want to throw me into a pit of fire where I will feel the physical pain of being burned alive forever. he casts me out of his sight, as I wanted. The rest is up to me and whomever else is there.

 

[Bradskii]

Whatever ones concept of hell might be, it isn’t working as a deterrent. And let’s face it, if you considered eternal torment as being even the tiniest chance of your destiny, you would not be able to function normally.

Let’s say speeding is a sin. And we need to convince people from doing it. How about we take the next person who speeds in your town and srting him or her up and burn them alive. All on tv so we all get a chance to see what the punishment is going to be.

Now, we still have a free will choice to speed or not. But hands up how many think that speeding would still be a problem.

If you really knew as a fact that hell exists, then with all the free will you want, nobody would sin. All God would need to do would be to give us a quick look at what it might be. Doesn’t take away our free will. We woukd still have the option of taking a chance that He would be merciful.

I’ll hang around for a while to read all the accounts that will follow about various people who have been there and seen it.

 

[wkj_123]

if you considered eternal torment as being even the tiniest chance of your destiny, you would not be able to function normally.

This is my belief as well. You hear lots of Christians just discussing hell a lot and I don’t think they fully grasp it. How can people go about their lives knowing there are people being tortured constantly and it could happen to them too. An eternity of suffering is just unimaginable. I believe it’s so unfathomable that no one could “choose to go there” and no loving or even decent God would allow the existence of a place like that.

 

[laylow]

And let’s face it, if you considered eternal torment as being even the tiniest chance of your destiny, you would not be able to function normally.

“Hell is other people” or maybe actually more accurately, hell is for other people.

 

[Rozellelily]

That’s what I struggle with.
A civil society doesn’t punish a criminal by barbaric ways such as setting them on fire-someone like Isis does.
How greater God is than humans, and more moral and loving,why then is it thought that God does something (directly or indirectly) that reasonable humans wouldn’t do to another?

God is the creator,so irrespective of whether He directly sends people to physically burn forever or whether they choose this themselves,he has still hypothetically created this “place” in the first place.

In most civilised countries (except the US),even the death penalty/capital punishment is seen as being barbaric.

 

[PJM]

Ok so I’ve been thinking deeply.

I’m Catholic baptised but I’m quite “secular” and not much of a believer etc and there are a few points regarding the Catholic Churches beliefs that Im not personally on the same page as.

One thing that “concerns” me is regarding the belief of hell as a literal burning torture place as this to me seems to be in direct contradiction to everything that is taught about loving ones neighbor and being kind and loving

MY REPLY WILL BE ON 2 CONSECUTIVE POST DO TO ITS LENGTH

FROM FATHER HARDON’S CATHOLIC DICTIONARY

**HELL. “**The place and state of eternal punishment for the fallen angels and human beings who die deliberately estranged from the love of God. There is a twofold punishment in hell: the pain of loss, which consists in the deprivation of the vision of God, and the pain of sense, which consists in the suffering caused by outside material things. The punishment of hell is eternal, as declared by Christ in his prediction of the last day (Matthew 25:46), and as defined by the Fourth Lateran Council, stating that the wicked will “receive a perpetual punishment with the devil” (Denzinger 801). The existence of hell is consistent with divine justice, since God respects human freedom and those who are lost actually condemn themselves by their resistance to the grace of God"

If God is the “ultimate example” and he tortures people when they are bad/unrepentant people,but we humans are meant to be loving,lay down our lives for others,love and forgive our enemies etc… then doesn’t add up.

Also, and I know it’s not a great analogy,but a (loving) human parent would never harm their child by a literal fire no matter how disobedient their child was.

I understand that God is without sin unlike humans,but still.

The whole “be charitable,loving and forgiving or else you’ll physically burn for eternity” thing just doesn’t add up

1. God can be defined as ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED
2. This means God can only Will, & Cause Good things
3. Evil is a result of God’s creating humanity in His Own Image Gen 1:26-27
4. Because GOD is Perfect & gives us perfect love; He desires & demands perfect love in return Isaiah 43: 7 & 21
5. In order for love to be perfect it has to be FREELY given
6. Man emulates God by being GIFTED a mind, intellect & freewill at the instant of our conception.
7. God in order to be GOD must {absolutely} be both “Fair and Just”. God’s very Nature DEMANDS this.
8. Consequently God MUST reward good and punish Evil; BOTH of which are freely chosen by humanity and are rightly and JUSTLY the result of OUR own choices; God dare I say “only” confirms our life-choices.

 

[PJM]

continued from above post

“Explanations Christians give such as that physical hell was created for demons and people choose to go there, God doesn’t send them” doesn’t really make sense either because then it renders God to like a “powerless figure” when the reality is God is all knowing so would have known when creating this “burning literal hell” that humans would end up “choosing” to go there."

MY REPLY

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21
[7] And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & [21] This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise.

My friend. These 2 passages explain the very purpose for human existence: We exist to know, Love and Serve our God. How well; and to what extent we accomplish this will determine where WE have chosen to spend eternity. THAT is Divine {infallible} Justice.

God in order to be God cannot be {absolutely} powerless. Knowing in NOT causing ; nor for that matter even desiring Hell. 1 Tim. 2: 3-4 “ [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

God’s desire is that ALL human Souls’ attain Heaven; but because humanity alone is created to know, Love and Serve God; being GIFTED with a mind, intellect and Freewill {are RATIONAL} and because actions DO HAVE consequences; God HAS TO punish OUR evil and reward good.

Easter Blessings,
Patrick

 

[steve-b]

Ok so I’ve been thinking deeply.
I’m Catholic baptised but I’m quite “secular” and not much of a believer etc and there are a few points regarding the Catholic Churches beliefs that Im not personally on the same page as.
One thing that “concerns” me is regarding the belief of hell as a literal burning torture place as this to me seems to be in direct contradiction to everything that is taught about loving ones neighbor and being kind and loving.
If God is the “ultimate example” and he tortures people when they are bad/unrepentant people,but we humans are meant to be loving,lay down our lives for others,love and forgive our enemies etc… then doesn’t add up.

we are created, (body and soul), our body is mortal, and our soul is immortal, all by God’s design. Ergo We are made to live forever with God. But to be with HIM, It must be a choice of ours to make. God gave us free will. He eternalizes what we choose.

eg:

When we die ,

1. if one’s soul is with sanctifying grace at that time, (i.e. the soul is without mortal sin) the body goes to the ground, but their soul goes to heaven forever. God immortalizes their choice
2. If our soul is Without grace, (i.e. one dies in mortal sin) their soul goes to hell forever. God immortalizes their choice

Point being, NO ONE has to die in mortal sin. That is a choice.

For a very short time, we live in time. We make choices here, in time, and their are consequences for our choices both good and bad we make here.

If one goes to hell, it’s because of one’s choices they made here, and died in those choices.
Rozellelly:

Explanations Christians give such as that physical hell was created for demons and people choose to go there,God doesn’t send them" doesn’t really make sense either because then it renders God to like a “powerless figure” when the reality is God is all knowing so would have known when creating this “burning literal hell” that humans would end up “choosing” to go there.

At the same time though,there are many stories from Catholic saints such as Don Bosco and nuns etc who detail seeing a literal burning hell.

If God did not give us free will, we would be guilty of NOTHING we do either good or bad. Free will is phenomenally powerful. God didn’t take on human nature, live, suffer horribly, die, and resurrect from the dead for robots, or animals who can’t reason with an intellect.

The angels were the first creatures. 1/3 failed their test.
Humanity is now being tested. The test is over at each of our deaths.

Jesus said in effect since few are saved, most of humanity fails the test