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Scoochy
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Well, since we live in time, we have no concept of eternity. It seems that we might try to think of awfulness times infinity.
Does a person have to believe in literal burning hell to be Catholic
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Bradskii
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BoyGenius
Guest
First, before anyone gets to Hell, let alone Heaven where all souls should be. Let’s understand that each person is judged accordingly. That is the Christian tradition on judgement. We are judged. When in the after life we are judged, it isn’t a judgement to push people away from God. Each one being judged is going to be judged what was in their heart. For that is where our treasure is. If the person’s soul, at the very core of their being not by ignorance nor in weakness held, rejects God. Well they reject Love. And choose themselves. Which they cannot exist on their own. So all that is left for them is Hell. God is a just God. He will judge each accordingly.
Consider, when we die, and pass on from this life. And there we stand before God’s presence. We will see Him face to face. We will know about ourselves than we have ever did. Our knowledge of God will be known. All souls will know Him fully, in Truth. His presence will shine. But there will be those who will simply reject Him standing there. God isn’t going to take their free will away. For that would be worse than Hell. And because God sustains them to exist in His love, mercy, and presence, they will seriously choose and reject Him. For Jesus said to them, who were like goats, that they did not do anything for the least. Those who were like goats asked when did they ever see Him? They didn’t. It was not by ignorance. They just don’t approve of His love and salvation. And so Jesus said get away from me. Because that is how they perceived Christ and His Church. They did not want to be in Heaven. And so Jesus has to judge and curse them for their rejection of the Truth. Of their own choice. And Jesus gives them what they deserve, but by telling them truth: evil doers. Their mind, soul, and will cannot exist in God’s presence, which is fully manifest in love. Because they choose and do not want it. And so they end up in Hell. Which is what they choose and desire of their soul before Christ. He does not wish them there. And He does not will them there either. But their state before Him is their own choosing. And Christ isn’t going to force them in Heaven based on a desire of their own that does not want to accept Heaven in pure love and filial affection. And hence why they end in Hell.
God is love. When our souls cannot refute Him any longer, His presence and existence. The state of our souls will determine, by our own free will, do we accept or reject Him. And Hell is the place where souls, and the devil go, because they all say non-servium. They do not want to serve love. They rather hate and choose every vice and sin over Love. And so their desire wherefore their hearts rest and reside cannot exist in God’s sustaining presence, because they object and oppose it. Of their own freewill and accord.
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BoyGenius
Guest
One thing that not only disturbs me about hell, none and much the less seeing people going into prison. And this comes from my Grandma’s own observation when seeing a homeless man. That the man was a baby once held in a mother’s arms.
Every soul that is judged was once a small young child, with sweet innocent eyes, gazing. And I wonder how can this be? Hell? It deeply disturbs me. To see a child, then to be grown up, do some horrible things, and yet treated with such cruelty. And that makes me pause.
For suppose a child dies, he or she just hates God. Then when he or she goes before God, and just absolutely rejects Him?
But something even gives me pause then. God is a just God. He knows the child’s suffering and inadequate development in character and knowledge before their death. So how would God perceive and judge this child?
Since God is Love. And as Saint Paul attests Love is patient and does not think of its’ own. Which is key in understanding the nature of God, His friendship, love, and fidelity. Even for that small young child passing away. Although we will never see that child grow into an adult. I believe God nevertheless, a just God, will allow that child to grow in His Presence to deeply understand Him and His love. For even Jesus said not to stop the little one’s from going to Him. And think that is key even on judgement.
God will take the time with the young child who passed away so suddenly. He will not take away their freewill, but will love them all the more. And I believe why perhaps God did allow that child to die so suddenly because that child might have their Salvation worked out so suddenly. Again, I don’t think God is there wanting to use evil to do good. But, He allows in so far as it can be, a blessing happen. Not in an impersonal away. But in love. Most often tragic conditions surrounding a child’s death, generally reveal something about their father and mother, their family life. Means in cases there is something wrong. Maybe the life of the family was too busy for the child. Or certain lifestyle choices. Or again it’s just simply the world gone wrong.
God is Love. He does will any soul to be in Hell. All we can do is ask God though to Bless us we may never go there. To at least not be impersonal. To really give us that consolation and gift of Heaven. Knowing how weak we are. How prone we are to sin. How faulting we are like little children to stumble and fall when we first begin to walk for the first time. And yet we are like this in our faith all the time. So Jesus, through the Church, reveals the Sacrament of Confession. And that is key there, also. He knows we are going to fall each time. He has endowed the priesthood with the Rites of the Sacraments to get us there. To get us to Him, His Love and His Mercy.
Hell exists because men choose it. Not because God made it. Or chose it. But men did. Because, whatever sin or vice that exists, that man has made, in his heart and deepest convictions which by his soul, he has made manifest. It is Hell. Of his own making. And rejection of God, His Love, and His Mercy. To be, to exist. And his souls is definite undeniable creation of God Himself.
Every soul that is judged was once a small young child, with sweet innocent eyes, gazing. And I wonder how can this be? Hell? It deeply disturbs me. To see a child, then to be grown up, do some horrible things, and yet treated with such cruelty. And that makes me pause.
For suppose a child dies, he or she just hates God. Then when he or she goes before God, and just absolutely rejects Him?
But something even gives me pause then. God is a just God. He knows the child’s suffering and inadequate development in character and knowledge before their death. So how would God perceive and judge this child?
Since God is Love. And as Saint Paul attests Love is patient and does not think of its’ own. Which is key in understanding the nature of God, His friendship, love, and fidelity. Even for that small young child passing away. Although we will never see that child grow into an adult. I believe God nevertheless, a just God, will allow that child to grow in His Presence to deeply understand Him and His love. For even Jesus said not to stop the little one’s from going to Him. And think that is key even on judgement.
God will take the time with the young child who passed away so suddenly. He will not take away their freewill, but will love them all the more. And I believe why perhaps God did allow that child to die so suddenly because that child might have their Salvation worked out so suddenly. Again, I don’t think God is there wanting to use evil to do good. But, He allows in so far as it can be, a blessing happen. Not in an impersonal away. But in love. Most often tragic conditions surrounding a child’s death, generally reveal something about their father and mother, their family life. Means in cases there is something wrong. Maybe the life of the family was too busy for the child. Or certain lifestyle choices. Or again it’s just simply the world gone wrong.
God is Love. He does will any soul to be in Hell. All we can do is ask God though to Bless us we may never go there. To at least not be impersonal. To really give us that consolation and gift of Heaven. Knowing how weak we are. How prone we are to sin. How faulting we are like little children to stumble and fall when we first begin to walk for the first time. And yet we are like this in our faith all the time. So Jesus, through the Church, reveals the Sacrament of Confession. And that is key there, also. He knows we are going to fall each time. He has endowed the priesthood with the Rites of the Sacraments to get us there. To get us to Him, His Love and His Mercy.
Hell exists because men choose it. Not because God made it. Or chose it. But men did. Because, whatever sin or vice that exists, that man has made, in his heart and deepest convictions which by his soul, he has made manifest. It is Hell. Of his own making. And rejection of God, His Love, and His Mercy. To be, to exist. And his souls is definite undeniable creation of God Himself.
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Rozellelily
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In the case of a child passing away,I don’t think children can really have free will anyway,can they?
Especially not a small child,but wouldn’t a older child also not have full free will in the sense that he/she doesn’t know all the “facts” yet so they are operating on limited understanding and forming their decisions based on that?
I still can’t grasp whether the mind and soul can be in opposition or not-eg:maybe with the mind(will) accepting God but the soul rejecting Him?
I hope that makes sense.
It is the mind that has the concept of will and decision making and the mind/brain ceases all function after death (including the will centres), yet it is the soul that “goes” to hell…so is it really the soul as a “separate entity” that is rejecting God rather than a persons mind(free will)?
What if a person accepts some of Gods teachings and does some things in love like helps the homeless but does not accept God in his entirety and rejects Him -do they still “go” to hell?
Especially not a small child,but wouldn’t a older child also not have full free will in the sense that he/she doesn’t know all the “facts” yet so they are operating on limited understanding and forming their decisions based on that?
I still can’t grasp whether the mind and soul can be in opposition or not-eg:maybe with the mind(will) accepting God but the soul rejecting Him?
I hope that makes sense.
It is the mind that has the concept of will and decision making and the mind/brain ceases all function after death (including the will centres), yet it is the soul that “goes” to hell…so is it really the soul as a “separate entity” that is rejecting God rather than a persons mind(free will)?
What if a person accepts some of Gods teachings and does some things in love like helps the homeless but does not accept God in his entirety and rejects Him -do they still “go” to hell?
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Scoochy
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Warm beer it is.
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TRON
Guest
To my mind…
We will be given bodies at the Last Judgment. Bodies need to be in a “place”. Hell therefore as well will be a place. Jesus speaks often of Hell, its fire, its worms that never die. Could this be literal as well as figurative, absolutely it could…
People CAN and WILL chose Hell. Satan and his demons knew God much better than we do and chose this fate.
We will be given bodies at the Last Judgment. Bodies need to be in a “place”. Hell therefore as well will be a place. Jesus speaks often of Hell, its fire, its worms that never die. Could this be literal as well as figurative, absolutely it could…
People CAN and WILL chose Hell. Satan and his demons knew God much better than we do and chose this fate.
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Latin
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Someone may believe people CAN and WILL choose hell; but can someone who is predestined to heaven choose hell and end up in hell?
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Seagull
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Put your hand in a campfire for 60 seconds -
No - don’t go to that extreme -
Put your finger on a candle’s flame for 30 seconds -
no - don’t go to that extreme -
Consider Hell - it’s much safer- than not doing so.
" Be gone. I never knew you. Be gone - to Hell "
( You - DON’T - want to be told - that )
No - don’t go to that extreme -
Put your finger on a candle’s flame for 30 seconds -
no - don’t go to that extreme -
Consider Hell - it’s much safer- than not doing so.
" Be gone. I never knew you. Be gone - to Hell "
( You - DON’T - want to be told - that )
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TRON
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God ultimately knows who is going to choose for him because he is omnipotent, so would that be the context of how predestination is referred to in the Bible (the book of life etc.)?
That does not mean that the beings who go to hell did not ultimately decide their outcome by their own choices (a great dignity given to us)
Trying to discern much further is beyond my pay grade.
That does not mean that the beings who go to hell did not ultimately decide their outcome by their own choices (a great dignity given to us)
Trying to discern much further is beyond my pay grade.
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deMontfort
Guest
Here comes the wall of copy and paste spam 
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Latin
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God bless you TRON and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Of course God knows who is going to choose Him, because those whom God chosen first everyone choose God as well.
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THIS IS THE REASON AS FOLLOWS GOD KNOWS WHO WILL CHOSE HIM:
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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As you see above TRON our justification always PRECEDES our say YES to God’s call to Eternal life.
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God does NOT predestine anyone to Heaven to first see who will persevere to the end because apart from God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY would end up in hell. – Infallible teachings of the Trent. + Formal teachings of the Catholic Church.
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Yes great dignity given to us, but for us to choose heaven or hell is not among them, of course after God chosen and Justified us we also choose God.
COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
… We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which PRECEDE justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
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For the above reasons, I don’t believe God throws anyone to hell.
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We did not create ourselves, God created us, it is among God’s DUTY OF CARE to make us good and to save us.
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Of course we are actively cooperating with the graces of God, but even our active cooperation with His graces are also His gift.
We have NOTHING what God did not given to us.
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God bless you TRON and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Latin
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The Catholic Church has only ONE SET of Soteriology and rightly so and everyone should know it.Here comes the wall of copy and paste spam
I do my evangelistic duty out of love, it is not all copy.
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TRON
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Hey God bless you too!
I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but if you are correct, I sure hope that both you and I are one of the chosen ones destined for heaven
I respectfully disagree with your conclusions, but if you are correct, I sure hope that both you and I are one of the chosen ones destined for heaven
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Latin
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Latin
Guest
Please someone explain to me, what is contradict in my above post with Catholic Soteriology?TRON:
God bless you TRON and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Of course God knows who is going to choose Him, because those whom God chosen first everyone choose God as well.
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THIS IS THE REASON AS FOLLOWS GOD KNOWS WHO WILL CHOSE HIM:
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.
Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.
Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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As you see above TRON our justification always PRECEDES our say YES to God’s call to Eternal life.
.
God does NOT predestine anyone to Heaven to first see who will persevere to the end because apart from God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY would end up in hell. – Infallible teachings of the Trent. + Formal teachings of the Catholic Church.
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Yes great dignity given to us, but for us to choose heaven or hell is not among them, of course after God chosen and Justified us we also choose God.
COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
… We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which PRECEDE justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
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For the above reasons, I don’t believe God throws anyone to hell.
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We did not create ourselves, God created us, it is among God’s DUTY OF CARE to make us good and to save us.
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Of course we are actively cooperating with the graces of God, but even our active cooperation with His graces are also His gift.
We have NOTHING what God did not given to us.
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God bless you TRON and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
I’m a good learner, and a good listener.
Thank you in advance.
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TRON
Guest
My conclusion is…
Although God wishes for everyone to be saved, people have the ability to reject this free gift.
Why did Jesus spend so much time giving us the words of eternal life? Why did he spend so much time warning about Hell specifically? Why tell us to turn from our sins? Why bother, why did he not just walk around saying “you’re good, you too, oops too bad for you, hey you - don’t bother you’re toast” …?
God in his divine providence has dominion over all things, and knows all things.
God is in the eternal now, knows everything that will happen, I guess in that way we are “predestined”. Not absolutely predestined however that we have nothing to do with our outcome. We still are the actor as to whether to co-operate with him and receive the graces that come along with that, or to not co-operate with him and withdraw ourselves from the graces that are available to us.
That is my conclusion
And be careful, the person who is least afraid of falling off the roof, is the most likely to fall off the roof (roof analogy because I have some roof repairs to make)
Although God wishes for everyone to be saved, people have the ability to reject this free gift.
Why did Jesus spend so much time giving us the words of eternal life? Why did he spend so much time warning about Hell specifically? Why tell us to turn from our sins? Why bother, why did he not just walk around saying “you’re good, you too, oops too bad for you, hey you - don’t bother you’re toast” …?
God in his divine providence has dominion over all things, and knows all things.
God is in the eternal now, knows everything that will happen, I guess in that way we are “predestined”. Not absolutely predestined however that we have nothing to do with our outcome. We still are the actor as to whether to co-operate with him and receive the graces that come along with that, or to not co-operate with him and withdraw ourselves from the graces that are available to us.
That is my conclusion
And be careful, the person who is least afraid of falling off the roof, is the most likely to fall off the roof (roof analogy because I have some roof repairs to make)
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Scoochy
Guest
Uh-oh…have to look up Soteriology. 
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Latin
Guest
God bless you Scoochy and God bless every readers of the CAF.Uh-oh…have to look up Soteriology.
Thank you, good advise; have to look up Soteriology.
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If I tell you Scoochy, our eternal destiny depends on God’s gift of our call to Eternal Life/Heaven which is an absolute predestination and coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will and His gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is our Eternal Protection and Aid of our salvation.
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Both of the above gifts are wholly gratuitous and entirely unmerited, this is also means:
Those who received/will receive the two above UNMERITED gifts, which coming TOTALLY from God’s decision/choice, they have Eternal Life in Heaven, those whom God refuse to give the above wholly gratuitous and entirely unmerited gifts, they have Eternal Life in the pains of hell.
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Would or could you Scoochy believe me, without I prove my above statements with Catholic Soteriology, of course I don’t ask the question because I know you would not and could not believe me.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination:
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the ABSOLUTE will of God “NOT TO ELECT” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to EXCLUDE them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, NOT to save them.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
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God bless you Scoochy and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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Scoochy
Guest
“I know you would not and could not believe me.”
YES, I already believe. Thank you.
YES, I already believe. Thank you.
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