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laylow
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Perspective and logic would be two basic problematic tenants.
Does a person have to believe in literal burning hell to be Catholic
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ProdglArchitect
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Once again, that’s not a reason. I can clearly outline the logic of everything I’ve written:
For example:
A. - The capacity to repent is one of God’s graces.
B. - The souls in Hell have no connection God.
C. - Per A & B - the souls in Hell have no capacity to repent.
I can do this for the rest of the points I’ve made.
Simply claiming I’ve violated logic doesn’t make it true.
For example:
A. - The capacity to repent is one of God’s graces.
B. - The souls in Hell have no connection God.
C. - Per A & B - the souls in Hell have no capacity to repent.
I can do this for the rest of the points I’ve made.
Simply claiming I’ve violated logic doesn’t make it true.
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laylow
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Laying these out as A & B does not make them true. I can lay out 2 untrue statements to arrive at a “C” as well.
Perspective:
The earth is approximately 4.55 billion years old. Humanity has existed for possibly 200,000 to 250,000 years, who knows how many more. A person lives average of 80 years, at best 100, many much less. This blink of an eye determines someone’s eternal fate, a fate that could consist of nonstop torture.
An “all-loving” being allows for the torture instead of correction (which any human being would do, even the worst of the worst)
This is not “God.” This is the perception of “God” from a peasant nation who wanted revenge on their enemies and wanted retribution for their suffering. That is a logical conclusion.
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LittleFlower378
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People that go to hell want to be there, they want to be separated from God for all eternity. They choose to sin and love other things more than God.
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ProdglArchitect
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Those are core tenants of Catholicism. I can understand if you’re not Catholic and don’t believe them, but again, that doesn’t make them wrong.ProdglArchitect:
Laying these out as A & B does not make them true. I can lay out 2 untrue statements to arrive at a “C” as well.
Correction requires the desire to be corrected. (i.e. repentance). We don’t even have to venture into theology to know this is true. The prisons are full of people who refuse to improve their lives or correct their ways. (There are also plenty of people who desire to improve and change, I’m not making a blanket statement).
As for “torture,” what other sort of existence can you conceive of if you are completely and totally separated from all that is good? I’m not talking about having a bad day, or even a bad life. I’m talking about the complete and total absence of anything good, positive, loving, etc. That existence could be nothing but torturous.
As for the span of human life, what does that matter? The longer a soul persists in sin, the less likely it is that they will repent. (Once again, we only have to look at the current world to see that). Similarly, the longer a person lives a virtuous life, the less likely it becomes that they will suddenly reject God. Sure, if someone lives long enough they may repent we’ve seen it before, but He doesn’t owe us that extra life span.
By what definition of logic? Yours? You look at the reality of Hell and say it is illogical because you personally find it distasteful. I look at the reality of Hell and see it as a necessary potential of free will. I also awe at the fact that the God humanity rejects constantly and without end would love us enough to even offer us the chance at repentance… that He would love us enough to enter into the world and suffer terribly to redeem us. I see the God who still has enough love for us to offer us a way to not be separated from Him, despite the fact that we whipped Him, and beat Him, and ultimately crucified Him on a cross…
You look at Hell and see a horror story, I look at it and one half of a love story. You’re right, it’s a matter of perspective; but your perspective isn’t inherently right because you believe it.
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laylow
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I don’t agree with this. I believe that most, if not all, have not been led correctly in a way that would allow them to reform. Many “well off” people don’t understand the mind of these “prisoners.” They just seem to enjoy that they perceive themselves as so much better people than them.
Yes, of course. Which should be the right and expectation of every human being, unless you live in North Korea (totalitarianism)
A mere picnic compared to being tortured in Hell for eternity.
That is truly sadistic, as if reveling in the midst of incomprehensible UNENDING suffering of others. If that is the conscience of someone striving for unending bliss, that seems as a backwards way of achieving it.
My mind is always opened to being changed if evidence, etc. presents itself. As is, I will live me life the way it makes sense to me, and strive to treat people fairly based on my best judgments. If you followed Church teaching in the old days, you would have probably owned slaves and possibly persecuted or killed others not in the Church. Is that acceptable now? Apparently not, I do not see people doing or approving of it. Thinking must progress, or it will be trapped in the dark ages and society will not improve.
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wkj_123
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I never really understand this position. I have heard people say hell is separation from God, and that’s the pain, but what is the point of a literal fire? It seems like the only reason for a literal fire is to purpousfully inflict torture. It’s one thing to say God let’s us choose separation from him, and as a consequence of being cut off from the source of all things good it’s miserable, but to me a literal fire makes absolutely no sense.
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ProdglArchitect
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I am observing an apparent trend, not relishing in it. I find it pitiable. I wish all the people in the prison system would reform and be welcomed back into society with open arms. That simply isn’t the reality though.
People do not have the right to make up their own logic. They have the capacity to due to free will, but that just means they’re goin gto go through their lives being irrational, given that their logic does not cohere with reality.
A mere picnic, to allow yourself to be killed by those that you created expressly to love? Physically sure, it doesn’t really compare; but we cannot even begin to understand the spiritual anguish… like a mother murdered by her child time infinity…
How is it sadistic? I’m not relishing the prospect of Hell. I don’t want people to go there. I don’t delight in it. I hope that people don’t go there. However, I also recognize that God gave us free will, and that people have the ability to reject God. They can only do that because He loves us enough to allow us to chose. Without that choice, we couldn’t really love Him, but because of that choice we can also chose not to. If we do chose not to, then the outcome can only be bad.
Are you trying to imply that the Church actively supported owning slaves? If so, then you are woefully ignorant of Church teaching. The church has rejected slave ownership since long before the modern era. When Catholics did own slaves, they were to treat them as children of God, not separate families, and not mistreat or abuse them.
As for persecuting and killing others, once again, you really don’t seem to have a good grasp on history. There have certainly been some bad actors in Church history, but Catholicism has never seen violence as a means for spreading the gospel, nor has it upheld violence as a preferred means to settle disputes. The Church has never ordered the execution of anyone, not even in the inquisitions, during which punishment was left up to the state. Even the Crusades, the misinformed historians most beloved cudgel, were defensive wars only entered into after literal centuries of abuse and violence at the handles of Muslims.
Your understanding of Church history isn’t even remotely accurate, and is tinting your entire understanding of Church teaching. Perhaps take some time to actually learn about the Church’s role in history, as well as the deep theological roots of these topics we’re discussing. We do not believe these things lightly, nor do with present them without evidence.
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ProdglArchitect
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That is because you’re not considering an existence devoid of good.
To be without good doesn’t simply mean to be miserable. To be without good means that your situation is literally the worst conceivable reality. Anything less would be better than the worst, and therefore a form of good. The pain of fire is, arguably, the most severe physical pain imaginable, and so it is necessary that it is the pain we suffer, lest we experience something less than the worst… Again, it’s hard to stomach, I know…
Ultimately though, even if we don’t understand the why, we know that Christ was being quite clear when he referred to Hell as fire. His words, combined with the eye witness accounts of the saints, leave very little room for doubt…
To be without good doesn’t simply mean to be miserable. To be without good means that your situation is literally the worst conceivable reality. Anything less would be better than the worst, and therefore a form of good. The pain of fire is, arguably, the most severe physical pain imaginable, and so it is necessary that it is the pain we suffer, lest we experience something less than the worst… Again, it’s hard to stomach, I know…
Ultimately though, even if we don’t understand the why, we know that Christ was being quite clear when he referred to Hell as fire. His words, combined with the eye witness accounts of the saints, leave very little room for doubt…
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wkj_123
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So basically to be seperated from God is to literally be on fire. My question would be is the fire a natural consequence of being apart from God, or does God activally burn those who choose not to be with him?
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ProdglArchitect
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I honestly don’t know. I mean, there is an aspect of punishment to Hell, but then the suffering is also a natural consequence of being apart from God…ProdglArchitect:
So basically to be seperated from God is to literally be on fire. My question would be is the fire a natural consequence of being apart from God, or does God activally burn those who choose not to be with him?
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wkj_123
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Thanks for your reply. Those are always questions that have plaqued me about hell.
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AlNg
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I thought that there were executions in the papal states which were under the sovereign rule of the Pope. The Pope was the authority and leader of the papal states.
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AlNg
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Holy Scripture is clear about Hell:
“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)
“Just as weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire so will it happen at the end of this world. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will uproot from the kingdom everything that is spoiling it, and all those who live in defiance of its laws, and will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be tears and bitter regret.” (Matthew 13:24-43)
Hell is “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41)
Rev 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Matthew 13:50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9: 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Matthew 13:42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)
“Just as weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire so will it happen at the end of this world. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will uproot from the kingdom everything that is spoiling it, and all those who live in defiance of its laws, and will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be tears and bitter regret.” (Matthew 13:24-43)
Hell is “the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41)
Rev 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Matthew 13:50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9: 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Matthew 13:42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
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Seeksadvice
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Avoid Detroit, okay? 
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Rozellelily
Guest
I think it does matter to a degree because it helps us to understand the nature of a God.
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Rozellelily
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No,that makes sense.
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Rozellelily
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To be fair,I don’t think he’s the only person who cares.
I remember vaguely that when i used to go to Catholic Church as a small child that there were sermons mentioning the (literal) fires of hell.
Nowadays I do not hear the priests talking about this in sermons.
I am not suggesting that the church has changed its teachings in any way,but there is still a reason for this.
If “nobody cared” then I would think they still would be giving sermons like this like they were in the 80’s.
Btw I’m talking about in an Australian society.Perhaps the situation is different elsewhere.
I remember vaguely that when i used to go to Catholic Church as a small child that there were sermons mentioning the (literal) fires of hell.
Nowadays I do not hear the priests talking about this in sermons.
I am not suggesting that the church has changed its teachings in any way,but there is still a reason for this.
If “nobody cared” then I would think they still would be giving sermons like this like they were in the 80’s.
Btw I’m talking about in an Australian society.Perhaps the situation is different elsewhere.
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teddy1
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I don’t personally believe that there is any such thing as hell. I mean, it just doesn’t make any sense. I truly believe that everyone, even the worst of the worst, go to the same place. What we do here on earth, more or less, doesn’t matter. I personally believe there’s an afterlife, but that doesn’t mean that it is in the Catholic tradition. Any of these religions could be right for all we know. We just do the best we can, nothing more, nothing less.
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Rozellelily
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What happens in the case of agnostic or atheists who have good qualities such as kindness and compassion but reject belief in God or reject the concept of sin?
IOW they may accept and “like” some of qualities come from God such as kindness and value it but reject God himself and Gods teachings in totality.
I know that nobody can (or should) state who is or isn’t going to heaven or hell,and that everyone is only responsible for the knowledge that they know,but hypothetically, if a certain atheist “goes” to hell do their good qualities such as kindness leave them because those good qualities only come from God and can’t exist in hell or how does it work?
I also find it hard to understand how any “qualities” /affective states can exist after death-whether good ones such as love,joy and kindness or bad ones such as evil and wishing ill will-because don’t these things only exist in us because of our brains and our brain functioning ceases at death?
Even the act/concept of will (as in free will) comes from
our minds/brain and we know this because in certain illnesses such as Dementia,Traumatic Brain Dysfunction and Schizophrenia peoples “will brain regions” are affected.
I hope that makes sense!
IOW they may accept and “like” some of qualities come from God such as kindness and value it but reject God himself and Gods teachings in totality.
I know that nobody can (or should) state who is or isn’t going to heaven or hell,and that everyone is only responsible for the knowledge that they know,but hypothetically, if a certain atheist “goes” to hell do their good qualities such as kindness leave them because those good qualities only come from God and can’t exist in hell or how does it work?
I also find it hard to understand how any “qualities” /affective states can exist after death-whether good ones such as love,joy and kindness or bad ones such as evil and wishing ill will-because don’t these things only exist in us because of our brains and our brain functioning ceases at death?
Even the act/concept of will (as in free will) comes from
our minds/brain and we know this because in certain illnesses such as Dementia,Traumatic Brain Dysfunction and Schizophrenia peoples “will brain regions” are affected.
I hope that makes sense!
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