Does a person have to believe in literal burning hell to be Catholic

[Rozellelily]

Sorry I probably didn’t describe it well when I wrote Powerless.
What I meant was more not so much powerless but that God “pre knowing” that some humans would choose to reject him and then He “allowing” their eternal “resting place” to only be with the demons in a literal hell fire.
Humans have freewill but God ultimately “made the system” if that makes sense.
So God isn’t so much powerless and God isn’t doing the choosing but it is still his design/system.

 

[Rozellelily]

Why is that?

 

[thistle]

I think i have made my position clear. In any case, in regards to the original qeustion of a literal burning hell, a Catholic does not have to believe in that concept of hell.

So what is your problem then??

 

[IWantGod]

I just stated my position, and then people felt the need to disagree, so i defended my position. Otherwise, if you want to believe that God is a torturer for those who freely choose to be tortured, that’s your problem. I just hope you don’t end up damaging somebody or pushing them away from the faith.

 

[Pup7]

You know Protestants believe the same thing, right?

I do understand what you’re saying, but I guess because I’ve heard this my entire life and accepted it, I can’t just dispense with the concept. I’ll also admit I never quite thought about it in the way you’ve presented - but I don’t think of it as God doing it. I think of it as the free will of the person.

Even the CCC says that there’s a difference in deliberately choosing to turn away from God and in not knowing God because you don’t know any better.

I also think you have to be a pretty horrible person to end up there. You don’t just screw up here and there and end up in Hell.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t personally believe that there is any such thing as hell.

There are two distinct questions to discuss:

• does hell exist?
• is anyone there?

Are you saying that you find it hard to believe that anyone could be in hell? That calls for speculation, but it’s a possibility. (As Catholics, we really can’t endorse universalism – which says that, by definition, God will refuse to allow anyone to be condemned – but we can consider the possibility that, individually, every person has the opportunity to be saved.)

On the other hand, are you suggesting that hell itself doesn’t exist? That would be a difficult position to maintain, especially since Jesus Himself talked about it as a reality.

I mean, it just doesn’t make any sense. I truly believe that everyone, even the worst of the worst, go to the same place.

This seems to say that it’s not the existence, but the population of hell, is what’s bothering you. Correct?

What we do here on earth, more or less, doesn’t matter.

Stop and think about the implications of that stance for just one second…

That means that nothing of what we experience here on earth has any import or even effect. That means that, for those who suffer, there is nothing that we can look at, as ‘meaning’.

That means that God is a terrible monster for allowing gratuitous suffering.

Are you certain that, as a Catholic – or, at least, a believer in Jesus – that’s a position you’re willing to accept?

I personally believe there’s an afterlife, but that doesn’t mean that it is in the Catholic tradition.

So, when Jesus taught the apostles, He wasn’t telling them the truth?

When Jesus founded the Church, He allowed it to completely get things wrong?

Hmm…

Any of these religions could be right for all we know.

No, they couldn’t. After all, a religion speaks to supernatural truths. If a religion’s basis is mistaken (e.g., ancient Egyptians who worshipped animal-faced nature gods), then its understanding is based in untruths. That would seriously undermine its ability to “get it right.”

We believe that Jesus is God. If He is our rock, then we believe that we’ve gotten it right solely because that truth comes from Him, who is God…!

 

[Gorgias]

I also think you have to be a pretty horrible person to end up there. You don’t just screw up here and there and end up in Hell.

Hmm… be careful.

That sounds just one step away from “nice people go to heaven” theology, which isn’t what Christ taught or what the Catholic Church (or Bible-believing Protestants) teach…

One “ends up in hell” by rejecting the grace that Christ gives. One rejects that grace by falling into a state of sin that severs the relationship he has with God. In other words, one unrepented mortal sin sufficies for loss of eternal life with God…

It sounds harsh… but it’s what Jesus teaches.

 

[Pup7]

Exactly.

I don’t mean anything else by what I said. No “careful” needed.

I think we can all agree that Ted Bundy was a horrible person (and let’s assume he didn’t repent - he certainly never came across as a person who might or did). Somehow I think the Catholic grandma in the fourth row at Mass with a few repented mortal sins in her closet (and the usual venials) isn’t quite on his level.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t mean anything else by what I said. No “careful” needed.

Maybe… and maybe not.

I think we can all agree that Ted Bundy was a horrible person (and let’s assume he didn’t repent - he certainly never came across as a person who might or did). Somehow I think the Catholic grandma in the fourth row at Mass with a few repented mortal sins in her closet (and the usual venials) isn’t quite on his level.

Let’s suppose that the Catholic grandma has exactly one unrepented mortal sin. Do you hold to the thought that, since she’s a nice Catholic grandma, she and Bundy will end up with different eternal destinations?

 

[Pup7]

If not, what was the point? Serious question.

If she’s a “nice Catholic grandma”, she won’t have any to start with.

 

[Gorgias]

If not, what was the point? Serious question.

The point is that one unrepented mortal sin is sufficient to lose one’s salvation.

So, even though Bundy is Bundy and Grandma is Grandma… they could both end up in hell.

That’s the point.

Sometimes, we get caught up in a deception that seems to come from the devil himself: “oh, don’t worry about that sin! It’s not as bad as the sin of your neighbor Bob! (You know he doesn’t recycle, don’t you? Ugh! What a horrible guy!) But you?!? Oh, no… not you! There was a very good reason that you committed adultery, so don’t worry about it. I mean, it’s not like you killed anybody, right?”

If we get caught up in trying to console ourselves that our mortal sin is less bad than someone else’s mortal sin, then we’re in serious trouble. 'Cause that path leads to a lack of repentance… and in the final analysis, ‘lack of repentance’ is what leads to hell.

If she’s a “nice Catholic grandma”, she won’t have any to start with.

That’s quite the presumption.

 

[Pup7]

It’s also quite the presumption to assume she’d have any in the first place.

I don’t think any of this, for the record:

“oh, don’t worry about that sin! It’s not as bad as the sin of your neighbor Bob! (You know he doesn’t recycle, don’t you? Ugh! What a horrible guy!) But you?!? Oh, no… not you! There was a very good reason that you committed adultery, so don’t worry about it. I mean, it’s not like you killed anybody, right?”

I also don’t agree with the assertion held by others that repenting at the last second saves your behind, or that if Ted Bundy was ever “saved” in the Protestant way of thinking he’s spared either.

Now, so you don’t think I’m running off, it is 0630 here, and I actually have to go get ready to go to work.

 

[Gorgias]

It’s also quite the presumption to assume she’d have any in the first place.

LOL! Fair enough. (After all, it’s way above my pay grade to judge culpability for sin.)

However, what I thought I heard in what you’d written was that “as long as you’re not a horrific murderer, you’ll be headed for heaven”, which is what the false “gospel of nice” is all about.

 

[Pup7]

(After all, it’s way above my pay grade to judge culpability for sin.)

THAT is assuredly true for both of us.

However, what I thought I heard in what you’d written was that “as long as you’re not a horrific murderer, you’ll be headed for heaven”, which is what the false “gospel of nice” is all about.

No, I don’t believe that either.

 

[Rozellelily]

And that leads to another question.
If 4th row grandma had repented of her mortal sins I would assume that she wouldn’t be in hell altogether, but if hell is a physical burning fire place wouldn’t that mean a random “grandma” with the unconfessed/unrepentant mortal sins such as for example getting civilly divorced and then remarried would be in the same place as Ted Bundy and receive the same experience?

(hypothetically presuming that she’s there).

 

[AHapka]

“God would not do that”

Well, God’s ways our not His ways and our ways are not His ways. I think it’s a dangerous presumption to say what He would or wouldn’t do.

If you read up on stories of people in solitary confinement in prison, there is a theme that some of them hurt themselves just to have some sort of stimulus and so they are no longer “empty.” People who have voluntarily done sensory deprivation do it themselves as well. I hate to say it, because I don’t understand it, but the pain may actually keep you from thinking of your loss of God and actually make you suffer less.

Am I right? I think so, but don’t know so. Will we all find out? Yes.

That’s the best I can answer.

 

[rose321]

It is NOT love that condemns you. It’s your FREE WILL.

Interesting respectfully opinion only. Free Will God has Freely chosen Himself to allow us to share with Him, Free Will and Desires, which he has given to us all, why?
What is Love if one is forced to Love, is not love is it?
What is Love if one is forced to Love only to be feared into Love, or one goes to Hell, is not Love is it?
Will God ever take back His gift of Free Will from us, to choose freely for ourselves?
I believe God will never take back His gift of Free Will in choosing, because would that not make God responsible held accountable for our own wrong choices in Life?
God is Love, Mercy, Forgiveness, Loves unconditionally and tells us within Scripture to Love your neighbor as yourself?
Forgive your brother 7 x 77 times?
Gives us all His Thou shall not’s?
God would not transgress his own Laws would he, would he not be a liar?
Like do what I say, command, but do not do what I do?
Contracts His whole Nature? Image? Character?
God did not punish Cain when he destroyed the very Mortal Life of his brother Abel, but God left Cain to wonder on his own, even marking Cain, so no one would harm him? Separation from God is far more painful?

Pondering also what Jesus said did he not in John and why?
John 18:36 " My Kingdom is not of this world"
So if this is not Jesus Kingdom, the World we live in, who’s is it?

Is it true that, 7 times in Greek Scripture from Jesus own Words,lips " If any man has ears let him hear?
Repeated in Isaiah 6:10, Jeremiah 5;21, Ezekiel 12:2, Matthew 13 etc

The souls in Hell have no connection God.

If ones souls goes to hell as mentioned and mentioned in other posts etc, what then enters the Kingdom for those who God finds righteous?

We know our physically body and blood is buried, decays, rots, and Jesus tells us in John Gospel>> No flesh and Blood enters the Kingdom, so if it is our Spiritual souls as we are told enters Hell, then what enters the Kingdom?

Confusing in deed. Interesting when pondering having may questions in need of examining also? Test all Spirits we are told, who are theses Spirits, Jesus tells us to test and bring 2 or more witnesses, through out our walk in Life?
Peace

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry but I can’t agree with the logic that feeling burning pain of a fire would make a person less focused on the pain of losing God.
This just isn’t sense.
Inmates who do the things you mentioned in solitary confinement usually do so because they have mental illnesses and feel the solitude much more acutely than other prisoners,the sensory deprivation really makes them go “crazy” and feel the sense of emptiness that you mentioned which is why in my view,it is wrong to put prisoners with mental illnesses in solitary confinement.

I don’t presume to know/think what God would or wouldn’t do,it just doesn’t seem logical and right.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Pup7 seems to have this subject under control, so first, I’ll just second everything she says.

I will add one thing: There is a school of thought (not Catholic doctrine, just theological speculation) that since you must have free assent of your will to commit a mortal sin (the only kind that will send you to Hell), it’s not possible while you’re alive. Why? Because of genetic predisposition, pyschological and social factors, etc. etc., no one is truly free. Therefore at the final judgment, God will ask you–because now you have complete freedom of will–if you embrace or reject your sins. At that point, if you embrace your sin(s), you have chosen Hell. Free choice. Although this is not doctrine, it’s a logical and persuasive theory.

Also some people seem to be denying the resurrection of the body. That’s clearly an article of faith. Whether you go to Heaven or Hell, you will have a body. You can not use random Biblical quotations to contradict an article of faith–the Bible must be read as a unit.

 

[Gorgias]

And that leads to another question.

If 4th row grandma had repented of her mortal sins I would assume that she wouldn’t be in hell altogether, but if hell is a physical burning fire place wouldn’t that mean a random “grandma” with the unconfessed/unrepentant mortal sins such as for example getting civilly divorced and then remarried would be in the same place as Ted Bundy and receive the same experience?

Mind if I respond?

You’ve asked a whole passel of questions there! namely:

• does “physical burning” accurately depict the experience of hell?
• is one single unrepented mortal sin sufficient to cause the loss of salvation in heaven?
• do all the condemned suffer in the same way?
• do all the condemned suffer to the same extent?

Lots of questions…

I’ll leave the first one alone – after all, it’s the subject matter of this whole thread, right?

The second is easy: ‘yes’. One mortal sin – since it severs our relationship with God – suffices.

The last two questions are rather subtle, but are nevertheless important. If the main consequence of damnation is “separation from God”, then all the damned do suffer in the same way – they are all separated from God eternally!

But, is the extent of their suffering equal out, or do some suffer more than others? For example, does a callous murderer suffer more than the hypothetical grandma because of the number and severity of his sins, or does grandma suffer more because she recognizes more fully what she’s lost?

That’s quite the dilemma, don’t you think? On one horn, we’ve got the ‘gospel of nice’, but on the other, we’ve got a seeming perversion of divine justice (that is, those who sinned ‘less’ suffer more)!

Perhaps we need to look at the situation with a bit more specificity. Did grandma sin willingly, and knowing that she had sinned gravely? After all, if not, then it wouldn’t be a mortal sin, right?

These last two are difficult questions, and we could call upon philosophers and theologians to help us with our talking points…