Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

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simpleas said:
Yes I think I understand what you say, seeing the world from the murders position, facts, and situations that lead up to the action, that lead up to that point of “no return”, when the deed has taken place. I don’t think anyone can be in their shoes at that point because it’s an individual decision/ action, that only they can experience. Any better?
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I think that what you are saying is that we cannot know exactly his mindset? However, “exactly” is not important. We are resentful of what we think are his motives and intentions, so once we examine all the possibilities we resent, then the understanding and forgiveness happens! What we saw before as “demonic” or “unhuman” we now see as human.
I think I can walk so far, understand some of what they may do, knowing I could be in their shoes at any point in my life, there are many situations in life we all could be in, but the ultimate decision is down to that persons control. With the exception of the clinically insane.
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Yes, the decision comes down to the person, and understanding the decision means addressing “why would I do exactly what that person did?”.
 
You don’t need to reject God to go to hell. Rejecting man is enough, and it would seem, even equally sufficient.

Matthew 25: 31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
OneSheep said:
Hi Folks!

Another call for examples of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God!

Please be ready to support your position. We will do an examination of why the person behaved or chose as he or she did, and try to understand what were the underlying motives and perceptions.

So far, no one has been able to support an example, but give it a shot! I am very open-minded.

Thank you!🙂
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Satan.

Revelation 20: 10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

*Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign.*
  • Catechsim of the Catholic Church, Part One: 391 & 392
 
Everyone in this world knows God. This world may be close to, but is not quite hell. We know Him in every act of giving ourselves to who and what is other. God is love. Every time, we act in an unloving manner, we reject God. We may not intend or even be aware of all the pain we bring, but we do know it when we choose to act uncharitably towards another.
 
TK421 said:
You don’t need to reject God to go to hell. Rejecting man is enough, and it would seem, even equally sufficient.

Matthew 25: 31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
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I definitely agree that our conscience dictates that people should be punished for their sins, and that the worst of sins should mandate the worst of punishments. Does this make sense to you also? However, in my own experience of forgiveness, when I forgive I no longer have the desire to punish someone. I see good reason to carry out justice, but that justice takes the form of protecting society and support of doing what will ultimately lead to the remediation of the blindness and/or ignorance of the perpetrator.

Do you share this experience of forgiveness?

In this book:

goodreads.com/book/show/124911.Good_Goats

The Linns address this very part of the Gospel. One of the brothers (I can’t remember which) was addressing a group of Sisters. He presented Matthew 25:31-46 and he asked the group "How many of you have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, welcomed the stranger, and visited those in prison?

The group of women raised their hands.

Next, he asked the group, “How many of you have neglected to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome a stranger, or visit someone in prison?”

The group of women looked at each other and slowly raised their hands. When they had all of their hands up, one of the more elderly women among them spoke out. “I get it, we’re all Good Goats!”

What the Linns explain in their book is that the section of Matthew is not referring to individuals, but Jesus is asking us to address the parts of ourselves that shy away from serving those in need. He is motivating us to serve, and by directly addressing our fears, resentments, or any other hesitations we will come to follow Him more closely, and, of course, manifest the Kingdom.
 
Aloysium said:
Everyone in this world knows God. This world may be close to, but is not quite hell. We know Him in every act of giving ourselves to who and what is other. God is love. Every time, we act in an unloving manner, we reject God. We may not intend or even be aware of all the pain we bring, but we do know it when we choose to act uncharitably towards another.
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Thanks Aloysium, for presenting a human example!

Now, can we investigate? Let’s see if your “do know it” stands to scrutiny, okay?

First of all, when you say “we do know it”, are you saying that we are knowingly and willingly hurting someone?

We would have to clear some things up. For example, it is quite common for someone to behave uncharitably without realizing that they are doing so, right? How often do we hear “Oops!” when a person has inadvertently stepped on someone’s toes?

Yet, there is also plenty of evidence on this forum, even, when someone has behaved uncharitably. How often have you heard, for example, one person say that another Catholic’s views are “anti-Catholic”? Yet, is this the way that we would want our own opinions addressed? Instead, the forum rules call for us to ask questions and get clarification and show the contradiction instead of directly condemning the opinion of the other.

However, in these cases still, the person saying that the other’s views are “anti-Catholic” is not knowingly and willingly hurting the other, right?

Or, can you think of a better scenario?

Thanks.🙂

P.S. Everyone in this world knows God? Maybe it’s more like “Everyone in this world knows a little about God.” or “Everyone in this world knows a little about what God is not.” The latter, I think, reflects Aquinas.
 
Some do, some dont

some are simply raised in a different religion(or in some cases lack there of) and even hearing about god to them may not be enough for them to believe in him
(now if a miracle were to happen like god shows himself to them in some way i’m sure then they would believe)
 
OS, your deterministic understanding of man does away with free will and love, and consequently God. I am not being uncharitable in stating that your views are not in compliance with Catholic teaching. You are a Catholic only as a work in progress towards the truth, revealed and interpreted by the Church through the grace of the Holy Spirit. Sorry if your feelings are hurt, but I say it like it is. You are esssential no different from say, any materialist trying to be good. You reduce the complexity of our spiritual nature to some sort of socio-, psychological superficiality. I could describe everything that is happening in this moment, if I had the time and inclination, in terms of purely physical events. While fully explanatory from the limited perspective, they would not capture the truth of what is occurring here to its depth in the Ground of Being, which is the Triune Godhead, in whose image we are made. You will always be preaching to yourself, recasting the cognitive bars of the golden cage which entraps your soul, preventing you from realizing the Truth. You have convinced no one. We can change through an act of will; see, I didn’t break up my sentences into individual lines (about which you commented on an earlier post).
 
OneSheep said:
Well, I gotta hand it to you for persistence!🙂

My answer is going to be the same: for purposes of this thread, and so that people can understand real people, “human” means having concupiscence and not having special “infused knowledge” as Adam supposedly had, making his condition very different than the rest of us.

If you like, we can pretend that Adam had concupiscence and did not have “infused knowledge”, then we could address him. Or, if you can think of an example that you would be able to support in depth, (vs. simply making assertions) then please bring it forward!

Thanks!
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Are you saying that Adam isn’t a real person and human? What infused knowledge did Adam supposedly have? Why is any pretend needed?
 
Ph0enix said:
Some do, some dont
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So, can you provide an example of someone who does? It need not be a real person, it could be some random person you just make up.
some are simply raised in a different religion(or in some cases lack there of) and even hearing about god to them may not be enough for them to believe in him
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Yes, exactly. It really depends on what they “hear” right? If all they know is by the actions of that Catholic guy down the street who treats people like dirt, then that is a really bad start, right? The viewer is going to get a wrong impression. I think that this is very, very common.
(now if a miracle were to happen like god shows himself to them in some way i’m sure then they would believe)
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Certainly something could happen, yes, and if one were to see the miracle as life itself, then that could be the beginning of faith. Many people’s faith begins with a sense of awe.

Thanks! Can you come up with an example of someone K&WRG? Please be ready to support your example.
 
I used a quote from Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughter House 5 earlier. Another has come to mind:
I think about my education sometimes. I went to the University of Chicago for a while after the Second World War. I was a student in the Department of Anthropology. At that time, they were teaching that there was absolutely no difference between anybody. They may be teaching that still. Another thing they taught was that nobody was ridiculous or bad or disgusting. Shortly before my father died, he said to me, “You know - you never wrote a story with a villain in it.” I told him that was one of the things I learned in college after the war.
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It seems likely that the same things are continuing to be taught. To be objective in this day and age is to see truth as relative. It is a matter of juggling ideas freed from thereality they were meant to reveal. So, scripture becomes one among a long list of mythical musings of primitive people contemplating mysteries far beyond their intellectual capacities, but now revealed by science. Consequently, it is then all about the psyche and cultural beliefs in themselves.

However, actions do have consequences that are very real in terms of their impact on others and on oneself. While one may think life and our part in in it boils down to a simple matter of tolerating the fact that lovers gotta love and haters gotta hate, whether or not the outcome is hell or bliss-on-tap for everyone, the truth is that our actions define and determine who we are as eternal beings. And, we control what we do. So, do not be misled. It is of universal significance what one does with the freedom and love God has granted. There is no excuse for not loving, While numerous factors always come into play, it is one’s decision determines the moral nature of an act. Open the television, there is no end to examples of where we reject God (love) knowingly and willingly.
 
OneSheep said:
So, can you provide an example of someone who does? It need not be a real person, it could be some random person you just make up.

Yes, exactly. It really depends on what they “hear” right? If all they know is by the actions of that Catholic guy down the street who treats people like dirt, then that is a really bad start, right? The viewer is going to get a wrong impression. I think that this is very, very common.

Certainly something could happen, yes, and if one were to see the miracle as life itself, then that could be the beginning of faith. Many people’s faith begins with a sense of awe.

Thanks! Can you come up with an example of someone K&WRG? Please be ready to support your example.
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I’ll give a hypothetical example on the willing to reject part

Let’s say Bob were to be catholic and raised that way, he then becomes aithiest even though he was raised Catholic
 
OneSheep said:
Well, I gotta hand it to you for persistence!🙂

My answer is going to be the same: for purposes of this thread, and so that people can understand real people, “human” means having concupiscence and not having special “infused knowledge” as Adam supposedly had, making his condition very different than the rest of us.

If you like, we can pretend that Adam had concupiscence and did not have “infused knowledge”, then we could address him. Or, if you can think of an example that you would be able to support in depth, (vs. simply making assertions) then please bring it forward!

Thanks!
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Um, no. How about you acknowledge that Adam is a human being like the rest of us.

You have taken a phrase and tried to spin it into making Adam some kind of nonhuman whose ‘knowledge’ was so different that for all intents and purposes he wasn’t really human ‘like us’ at all.

Well, riddle me this. Adam and Eve were created without sin. Mary was conceived without sin.

Yet Mary, who could just as easily have sinned as Adam and Eve did --didn’t.

We all acknowledge that Mary was a human being like us. What makes her ‘human’ but not Adam? Surely Mary was ‘full of grace’ (unlike all the rest of us) from her conception. . .but that did not change her humanity. So why would Adam’s creation without sin change him so that you don’t accept him as human???
 
OneSheep said:
Well, I gotta hand it to you for persistence!🙂

My answer is going to be the same: for purposes of this thread, and so that people can understand real people, “human” means having concupiscence and not having special “infused knowledge” as Adam supposedly had, making his condition very different than the rest of us.

If you like, we can pretend that Adam had concupiscence and did not have “infused knowledge”, then we could address him. Or, if you can think of an example that you would be able to support in depth, (vs. simply making assertions) then please bring it forward!

Thanks!
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Adam didn’t have concupiscence, but he was a human being, and he sinned. Differentiating ourselves from the Old Adam isn’t in anyway meaningful. Are you saying if Adam had been in my shoes and I had been in Adam’s as the first parent, that I would never have fallen in the garden? Or you? Or anybody else? Was it just poor Adam and Eve?

Or Satan and his angels. They have free will, same as we do, and they are judged for their irrevocable conviction to not serve God, but man is allegedly not, since he has concupiscence, it is impossible for him to ever be truly guilty. Where does this extreme favoritism come from? If God shows such extraordinary partiality, then praise God I was created as a man, and may I forever pity the angels.
 
“Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?”

Yes.

Who?
Me.

How it happened?
Fooling myself deliberately against all evidence that its only my subconscious answering me, especially by unwillingness to carefully think and analyze, which is normally my nature to do and which i know to be the right thing to do; hence, i rejected truth, hence, i rejected Him. And i cannot claim that i do not know that rejecting truth is wrong and amounts to rejecting Him.

Fortunately, He was patient and gave me a second chance, setting up everything nicely so my clever devised folly was crushed as if by a sledgehammer and i had nowhere left to hide myself.

(In my opinion it sums up to “knowingly and willingly” though it might lack a little bit from other people’s perspective.)
 
OneSheep said:
Check this out David:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/before-sin

Note the bullet points of “preternatural gifts”. Normal humans do not have these. This thread’s aim is to foster understanding of normal human behavior.
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Did any of these gifts prevent Adam from sinning? No.

So knowledge does not prevent sin. Your article proves that Adam, with full knowledge, willingly rejected God. Your request for other examples seem to be an attempt to distract from the truths available through the study of Adam.
 
Aloysium said:
OS, your deterministic understanding of man does away with free will and love, and consequently God. I am not being uncharitable in stating that your views are not in compliance with Catholic teaching.
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By the guidelines of the CAF, it is charitable to ask questions rather than accuse, Aloysium. If you find a view of mine that you think is not in compliance, please bring it forward, and I will show how it is in compliance.
You are a Catholic only as a work in progress towards the truth, revealed and interpreted by the Church through the grace of the Holy Spirit
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.

We are all a “work in progress”, are we not?🙂
Sorry if your feelings are hurt, but I say it like it is. You are esssential no different from say, any materialist trying to be good. You reduce the complexity of our spiritual nature to some sort of socio-, psychological superficiality. I could describe everything that is happening in this moment, if I had the time and inclination, in terms of purely physical events.
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Did you just start out with an apology, and then do the very thing that you were apologizing for?

That is called a “non-apology”.

I am gathering that you are thinking that I am saying something that you do not want me to say, and that I am not saying something that you really want me to believe.

What have I said that you think is not in compliance?
What am I not saying that you want me to say?

You’re heart is in the right place, Aloysium, please take the time to answer my questions.

Thanks.🙂
Aloysium said:
It seems likely that the same things are continuing to be taught. To be objective in this day and age is to see truth as relative. It is a matter of juggling ideas freed from thereality they were meant to reveal. So, scripture becomes one among a long list of mythical musings of primitive people contemplating mysteries far beyond their intellectual capacities, but now revealed by science. Consequently, it is then all about the psyche and cultural beliefs in themselves.

However, actions do have consequences that are very real in terms of their impact on others and on oneself. While one may think life and our part in in it boils down to a simple matter of tolerating the fact that lovers gotta love and haters gotta hate, whether or not the outcome is hell or bliss-on-tap for everyone, the truth is that our actions define and determine who we are as eternal beings. And, we control what we do. So, do not be misled.** It is of universal significance what one does with the freedom and love God has granted. There is no excuse for not loving, While numerous factors always come into play, it is one’s decision determines the moral nature of an act. **Open the television, there is no end to examples of where we reject God (love) knowingly and willingly.
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I especially liked this part I bolded in what you said, and we are in complete agreement. So, if something I said earlier seemed to communicate something different, please look again. There are explanations for people not loving. “Excuse” has to do with withholding consequence, but consequences are a result of an action. When we touch a hot stove, we get burned.

So, turn on your television and find the first example of a person K&WRG, and we can discuss it, please. Back up your assertions with evidence that you can support.

Thanks again.🙂
 
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