Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[frangiuliano115]

Hi fran,

I’m always glad to make people think!

(I removed some of the quote to try to keep this post below the 6000character mark)
It’s about hippie worldwide communism - everyone getting along, sharing all the world.
At least, that’s how I interpret the song.
However, we know all too well that communism doesn’t work, in the long run… something to do with people needing some promise of a reward in order to try harder.
Heaven, can be seen as the ultimate reward, huh?
Doesn’t make it real… but the belief that it is real leads to motivation.

Most people can live decently with a standard secular authority. Their morals, as with all other social species, comes through empathy… this empathy is mainly intuitive, with some government rules to keep in check those who have faulty intuitions…
Empathy appears to be something that has evolved as social species evolve… think of wolf packs - one alpha male as base authority, but he’s not dealing out any judgement on the behavior of the others among themselves. The others act mostly in such a way as to keep the whole pack healthy and this they do intuitively. Trouble-making wolf behaviors lead to individuals who get kicked out of the pack and struggle to survive and breed. Behaviors that lead to pack survival are passed down the generations. Of course, some parasite bad behaviors do crop up once in a while, and the rest of the pack promptly attempt to minimize the effects.
With people, it must have happened in a similar way, since we were nothing but apes, we were already social… that was over 2 million years ago… 2 millions years of genetically enforcing empathetic behaviors, leading to the survival of the group, while discouraging negative behaviors. Millions of years of evolution of this intuition would have led to a shared set of behaviors towards our fellow humans. So shared and so precise they appear that, upon inspection, they must seem like they’ve been handed out to each of us while still in our mothers’ bellies.

Well… perhaps… but that is never a long term thing…
As a transition form of reaching some worldwide cohesion, such a government may be a viable option… but, as all totalitarian governments, it would then decay from the inside and need to be replaced by something else… I don’t know what.

Kids need God?! Oh dear, I think not.
About the first chapter of Romans, I’m not sure I ever read it.
The void I find in man is curiosity… the yearning to answer some questions which don’t seem to have answers… why am I here? What is my worth, in the grand scheme of things? What happens to me and my loved ones when we die? This thing that is me, but is not my body… what happens to it when the body dies? Do other animals have this same inner awareness?
How did we all come to be in here? Why?

Gods (and some extra surrounding details) have been presented as possible solutions to these questions. Solutions which, while self-consistent, have little in terms of factual support.
It is thought that a little piece of more contemporary evolutionary behavior has led to the imbuing, in certain groups, of the God perspective. Those who believe as the rest of the group are kept in the group… those who don’t are outcast… Belief became encouraged, while disbelief was strongly discouraged. This would still be an early piece of evolution but we, in our ignorance, would mistake it as an inner need for God.

Well… I think I can visit someone I don’t believe exists, but I would be getting there unwittingly, unknowingly. Once face-to-face, it would be hard not to accept that the person does exist.
So… why make us? so we love Him and become His friends? Then why keep hidden from most of us?
Oh, he seeks our love? Then why can’t we know about it, except through some seemingly all-too-human institution?

So, you acknowledge that the higher power exists and you want to be with it… But why would that higher power care about it?
Better, why would that higher power value such faith?
I can understand why the “all-too-human institution” would value faith… I think you can understand it too. The fold!
But the higher power? The thing that would, honestly, have no need for such institution in the first place?

(just making you think some more… I hope! )

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

My friends tell me I think toooo much, so it can’t get any worse than it already is!

Communism doesn’t work and we need a reward. Heaven as a reward. I could see how someone out of the faith would maybe understand it this way. I don’t think Christians do - at least not the ones I know. We see it more as a life to live - a way of life - a belief system. If God did not exist and there was proof of this (you could prove a negative??) would I change? No. I’d still be the same person. I don’t think I’d start acting mean or take drugs or cheat or anything like that.

I do believe though that at the base of all is this believe system that makes it all seem right - like the correct thing to do - the right way to be. Jesus transforms in an interior way that is difficult to explain. It could also be very visible. You know, those stories of persons that have stopped doing detrimental things that really change a persons life. So I don’t think the reward is the motivation I’d have to say that love of the Lord is the motivation. Must sound strange to you…

Secular authority and empathy. Secular authority is necessary. I was thinking more along the lines of a moral authority but we’re not going to get anywhere with this. Do you believe morals are subjective to the situation? Or is there an objective morality we could agree on? Regarding empathy. I wish you’d find a different word. People do throw this word around. Maybe you mean sympathy? Empathy is when you almost feel the persons pain. It’s not a good thing to have. As anyone who has it can tell you. Sympathy, OTOH, is good to have. It helps us to understand people and sympathize with them. This is necessary for the survival of our species, not empathy.

Your wolf pack scenario. I don’t agree with it. Wolves seem to have more common sense than humans do. I don’t see them doing the strange things we do. Why do whole civilizations disappear? Because we’re unable to do what is right for the functioning of our society. Just to take a modern example. The adoption of children by same sex parents. Parents getting divorced and children paying the consequences. How do actions like this promote our species and/or our well.being?

It seems to me that we’re not capable of governing our lives well. If you think of it, it does make sense that sin had to enter the world somehow and that we are still effected by it to this day. Animals survive by instinct so they function by instinct so they actually make more sense than we do. I read The Naked Ape many years ago. It made sense back then but I was not a believer. There seemed to be something missing to explain WHY we’re the way we are. Are we really just apes? Then why are we WORSE than animals? Yes. We can be worse because we have intelligence. Animals don’t torture for example. They do what’s good for the pack, as you say. We don’t seem to. Becoming a believer and learning about the sin nature of man has helped me to understand a lot of how we act. We don’t seem to be able to minimize the effects, to put it your way.

Total agreement on totalitarian governments. What would replace them? Did you ever read The Animal Farm by John Steinbeck? The next group! The group gaining power ends up being just like the group they stole the power from!

World-wide government - world-wide cohesion. I’m a bit afraid of that. I’m not sure why. Afraid of loosing my identity? Culture? When you look down at the earth from space you do see one big globe and one big human family. But the details are so interesting once you get down here…

Kids needing God. If all God did was to answer all those questions you pose, it would be enough. What about the kids that get NO answers? I’m sorry for them. Kids that know about God and can accept it are so much happier. You haven’t noticed this? I don’t believe animals have this inner awareness. And I think kids yearn for God because He exists and He’s missing if He’s not a part of their lives. You know how kids WANT limits to be set by the parents? Maybe this is the same but in a much wider and more encompassing way? This might be part of it. Maybe.

I don’t agree with your understanding of evolution and the inner need for God. This post would become impossibly long. We’re enlightened these days. How come the need is still there?

Regarding the institution. I agree! WE need the institution, not God. Please read the first chapter of Romans. Man has always been aware of God in some way. Even before institutions. Why does He need us? I get your point. He certainly doesn’t need us. But then why make us? Maybe He’s just a creator. Maybe He’s love and needed something to love and to be loved back.

But I’m always perplexed at what YOU think made us? Did we just come about from nothing? I cannot believe we just happened by some great chance. It’s more difficult to believe than the fact that God always existed.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Two questions (possible for another thread/s)

Why should our forgiveness be unconditional and Gods be conditional?

Why do we believe a person can not be reconciled with God (saved) after death?

We’re not God.

It’s not biblical.

 

[OneSheep]

You were telling Guanophore that some people have misconceptins about God. Boy, is that TRUE! There are some on these threads that seem to be serving a different God than I am!

I agree with how you describe the word “accept”.

I wish you understood about the New Covenant and took the time to reread. It’s a very important concept and will be accepted by the scripture scholar priest you speak of. Maybe just the fact that it takes all parties for there to be reconciliation is enough for agreement.

Regarding the cigarette smoking: Yes. Of course there’s a reason. Maybe the person just thinks they look good smoking or are doing it to follow the crowd. Much like secularism. They are still going to DIE.

I still say it’s pretty impossible for me to forgive people who go beyond a certain point. In some, satan is a a visible force. People reading along could fill in the blanks. There’s a big divide between God and satan.

Not much more for me to say now.

Fran

See? We agree on so much, it’s those little things that seem like big things, but they are not.

We can all agree that God has the characterized “omnis”, and even though it may seem that we are worshiping a different God, we are not, any more than the Jews before Jesus were worshiping a different God. None of us sees the whole, right?

And gee, Fran, why be so pessimistic about being able to forgive those who “go beyond a certain point”. Your will to forgive is there, I know that. It is a matter of the ability. It is really hard to forgive some people. That is one of the great things about confession, the priest can help us with that.

And hopefully this thread helps, may a tiny bit… Who do you think that people have the hardest time to forgive?

Thanks, I really appreciate your comments.

 

[OneSheep]

Two questions (possible for another thread/s)

Why should our forgiveness be unconditional and Gods be conditional?

Why do we believe a person can not be reconciled with God (saved) after death?

We’re not God.

It’s not biblical.

But Fran, remember that Jesus says we are to "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect? So, if God’s forgiveness is conditional, then that is “perfect”, and we are to imitate that.

And then, there is Jesus forgiving the unrepentant from the cross. Remember how whomever sees Jesus sees the Father who sent Him? So in seeing Jesus forgive the unrepentant, we see the Father. And such forgiveness, in my own faith life, is what has been spiritually fulfilling to imitate.

And concerning reconciliation with God after death, remember that with God, all things are possible? That is going to be a loving possible, a forgiving possible, a merciful possible. Omnipotence + Omnibenevolence

Remember what I said the scripture-scholar priest who led our Bible study opined? He said, if anyone ever chooses hell, they do so screaming and kicking against God the whole way." This is the opposite of the idea of a “gotcha” God, one who says, “Oh, you didn’t get it when filtered to you through life? Tough luck.” Parents don’t love that way, and God loves so much more.

Oh yes, that really bugs our “justice” button right? Just like the workers in the vineyard.

It’s like, “why does God waste so much time on those unrepentant lost sheep? They aren’t worth the trouble.”

You know, after experiencing this thread I more and more get the feeling of being in a courtroom advocating one side, with precedent, and the other side is also arguing, with precedent. In real life, finally the judge has to decide which attorney has the more applicable and better argument for applied precedents. Somebody “wins”. The difference here is that both points of view, in all cases, are legitimate and acceptable in the Church. I still maintain that these presentations are not to be taken as either/or, but as both/and.

So, may no reader-as-judge ever feel alienated; Pick a view: fran, simpleas, guanophore, davidv, tonyrey, everyone who has posted. All are welcome, all are part of this beautiful, wonderful community we call Church.



And, oops, in the last edit here, pocaracas, your views are also always welcome. Often atheists have more insight than some of us “believers”.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by OneSheep

This is the opposite of the idea of a “gotcha” God, one who says, “Oh, you didn’t get it when filtered to you through life? Tough luck.”

I can not believe that God would think in such a way, it is too much like our little human thought.
God is much more than this to me.

 

[frangiuliano115]

See? We agree on so much, it’s those little things that seem like big things, but they are not.

We can all agree that God has the characterized “omnis”, and even though it may seem that we are worshiping a different God, we are not, any more than the Jews before Jesus were worshiping a different God. None of us sees the whole, right?

And gee, Fran, why be so pessimistic about being able to forgive those who “go beyond a certain point”. Your will to forgive is there, I know that. It is a matter of the ability. It is really hard to forgive some people. That is one of the great things about confession, the priest can help us with that.

And hopefully this thread helps, may a tiny bit… Who do you think that people have the hardest time to forgive?

Thanks, I really appreciate your comments.

O.S. You’d be surprised if you knew the people I’ve forgiven. And the harm they caused. These threads are general and we don’t get too personal. Let me just say that forgiving is part of being christian. It has something to do with God forgiving us - although I have difficulty understanding this concept. It stops Him somehow from acting as He would want to. It would be nice to discuss this a bit.

Now just because you’ve forgiven someone doesn’t mean you have to be in their life so they could keep harming you forever. I know I’m right about this. Plus Jesus said to be gentle as doves and wise as serpents. People who let themselves be trampled upon are not very wise. Maybe we should discuss the turning of the other cheek a bit and what it meant back in Jesus’ time. If one got slapped on the cheek it was a grave insult to the person. Jesus was saying to turn the other cheek to mean that you shouldn’t care if you’re insulted by someone but that you should care more about what God thinks of you. To not respond in haste in trying to justify yourself to a person instead of to God.

I’m not going to bring up specific examples. I’ll leave that up to you and the readers to use your imagination. There are people that have lived on this earth who are satan incarnate and anyone who can forgive them is sick. And i feel very strongly about this.

If GOD can forgive a person such as this, then GOD is sick and I know that He isn’t. Heaven is for those who wish to follow God. The other place is for the ones who wish to follow the other one.

It’s as simple as that.

Also, I’m imperfect so I could understand an imperfect person and forgive them.
God is perfect. How does an imperfect person stand in God’s presence? God is unable to be in the presence of sin.

Why do we insist on the dogma of the Immaculate Conception? Mary had to be sinless and without original sin because she was going to hold God in her body.

Does this not mean that God cannot be in the presence of sin?

If He could forgive everyone anything, it means He can bear to be near sin. So why then did Mary have to be Immaculate??

Fran