quote:
No, I unsubscribed from the thread. I was too frustrated with the steep mountain of denial. I believe that we know about God because He has revealed Himself to humankind. Part of what He has revealed is that all humans are afforded sufficient grace to repent and be saved.
The denial of this basic principle, to me, is a rejection of what God has revealed.
Hi Guanophore, good evening!
Please keep in mind that this thread did not directly address “salvation”, it entered as a peripheral issue. What we were specifically doing was using the gift of Understanding to explain, not excuse, people’s rejections.
It is a plain fact that many people have misconceptions about God and the meaning of love, forgiveness and servitude. So, if we assert that a person has “sufficient grace” to have full awareness at the time of death, which is what I think you are addressing, then we have a tendency to condemn the individual “who should have known better” (it is understandable and natural to condemn). Indeed, those who hung Jesus arguably “should have known better”, but they did not. Yet, in spite of their lack of repentance, He forgave them, for they did not “know what they were doing”. Jesus inspired us to use the gift of understanding to explain and forgive those who trespass against us and those we love, the importance of seeing the ignorance/blindness.
Forgiveness, as you know, is from the heart; forgiveness is not condoning, nor is it acquittal.
BTW: I did a google search for “sufficient grace to repent CCC Catholic” and nothing came up. Can you help me find the context for your statement?
Yes, we agreed that they had false notions about the coming of the Messiah. Perhaps they did not grasp all the implications of their decisisons at teh time, but the Scriptures reveal that they had sufficient revelation to make a knowing and willing choice. Unlike the Apostles, they were not willing to choose to trust Jesus without understanding everything. This is the root of human hubris
Very interesting! Where did the scriptures reveal that the Pharisees had made a knowing and willing choice? This is the opposite of Jesus’ words from the cross, is it not? I love finding Gospel passages that appear to make a contradiction, there is always an underlying context, an underlying truth. So, scripture passage?
guanophore:
How do you explain the fact that the people went to John for Baptism, and they did not? This choice is a matter of hardness of heart (arrogance). The anawim also knew that Jesus did not fulfill all the prophesies. Even the Apostles thought Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel during his lifetime. They did not let their preconceived notions of what the Messiah would do interfere with following the Truth when He revealed Himself, as the Pharisees did.
Well, there are many explanations, but I will offer only one for now. The Pharisees did not believe Jesus because they perceived that He was a threat, that He was bucking the system (i.e. forgiving people when he was not “qualified” to do so, that He was disrespectful of the hierarchy in some way. They were doing things the way that their fathers had done, and they theirs, etc., a tradition of might-makes- right and tradition-makes-right. They resisted any change, especially from someone of obviously lower rank, and from rural Judea at that.
They had “notions” that they saw as truth, but in fact they were blinded by fear, desire, and resentment. It was much easier for the apostles to accept Jesus, because their livelihood and traditions were not threatened by Jesus’ words and acts. Makes sense, or not?
Yes, the OT does contain these prophesies, but their refusal to accept the OT teachings on mercy and their attitude of disgust comes from a hardness of heart toward God and others. They failed in the first two commandments. When the people heard Jesus teach, their hearts were won over because they were hungry for God’s mercy. The Pharisees did not consider themselves in need of God’s mercy. Their arrogance prevented them from accepting him.
Well, we don’t know that the Pharisees did not consider themselves in need of God’s mercy. Do you have something from the CCC or elsewhere that asserts that? Please let me know. However, if we go with your theory, let’s shine some light on that possibility. The next question is “Why did they not consider themselves in need of God’s mercy?” Your answer is, “their arrogance prevented them”. So, the next question is “in what way did their arrogance (defined as thinking themselves better than the other) prevent them? Well, such thinking themselves better (than Jesus) is a falsehood, a falsehood adhered to because of their blindness, which was triggered by fear and resentment. They did not know that Jesus was the Truth, because they were blind. Jesus confirmed this from the cross when He said “for they know not what they do”.
Nothing I wrote above rejects Catholic teaching, brother. However, there are other perfectly understandable ways of looking at this issue, including blame of the Pharisees “because they should have known better”.
cont’d
