Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[davidv]

Okay, well, placing oneself ahead of God and others is understandable in the light of the fact that people are naturallyborn ignorant and self-centered. Placing oneself ahead of God and others is a stance of unawareness because in reality the good of all creation (and God within) and the good of one’s neighbor is coincidentally our own good. The good that we do is good for us, too, in the great scheme of things. So, is the “pride” the lack of awareness?

No.

Or is it simply the attitude?

No, it is a willful choice.

Jesus said, “Everyone loves their own body.”

Where and in what context does he say this.

Children are born very self-centered, and their love follows their awareness.

This is an unsupported assertion.

The progress continues, well into adulthood, likely beyond death! Have you spent much time around children?

Relevance?

Yes, God cannot be hurt, though His Son was indeed hurt, as was undoubtedly Our Mother. Have you ever considered the pain He had seeing His Mother seeing Him?

So, you can name a sin that is not hurtful to someone?

No.

Can you name an human-intended act that is hurtful to someone that is not sinful?

Yes, vaccinating your child.

Okay, there are accidents…

No sin is an accident. All sins are the result of deliberate choices.

I look forward to your response!

 

[davidv]

Hi Fran,

I love your questions! Yes, if one sees the alternative way of looking at God and our faith, starting with a Father who loves and forgives without condition, then a whole bunch of other issues must be addressed!

In the first alternative, God actually damns people, condemns them to hell, or does so in a subtle way with a “gotcha” approach, like “you should have known better, so tough luck”. Yes, there is definitely an emphasis on a justice that is based on condemning people for having made bad choices, and it begins with a God who does not forgive unconditionally.

In the second alternative, God keeps his arms of love and forgiveness extended regardless of the human’s mindset. God has already forgiven “before always”. With God, all things are possible, and of course that is a very positive “possible” in light of the His unconditional love. In this alternative, the human still retains his autonomy, and the choice to go to hell is respected by God, but in His benevolence that choice is never made without the person fully understanding his choice, which is brings us back to this thread. So if anyone is “damned”, he literally “damns” himself, but I cannot figure out how a human could make such a choice. We don’t make such choices knowingly and willingly, it is not in our nature to do so.

Good Goats addresses Luke 16, but I cannot remember the details, and I don’t have the book with me right now. The crowd who hung Jesus, at the moment, did not think that they needed to be forgiven, but God forgave them anyway.

Well I can give you my answers to those questions! Why help the poor? Because we love and care for their well-being, to create the Kingdom. Why go to Mass? To uphold our Church, to confirm our communion, to experience God in that Communion, to hear the word of God in the modern context, to grow in Love and Awareness, to name a few reasons. The Church is the bearer and the vehicle of the Good News, if we do not go, the community disappears. Going to Mass is a Christian responsibility to uphold the vehicle. Why learn our faith? To become more whole, more one with all creation, to become more holy, which is its own reward, it is a peace of mind, it is the love of Love.

So, I think the last paragraph also answers “why missionaries?”. What is the “Good News”? It is part of our human nature to perceive that death is the end, and even if there is an afterlife we all deserve a miserable one. Every human will naturally have a lot of anxiety about his or her own guilt in the eyes of our creator, and the Good News is that God forgives all, that He forgave even those who hung Him on the cross. In addition, the Good News creates the Kingdom! Can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone followed the discipline to forgive enemies, to care for the poor, love our neighbor? It is our nature to worship the rich, powerful, and famous, but to worship a lowly servant, a victim of human lust for justice, carried out on the cross? It turns the whole picture upside down! It turns life upside down, or really, rightside up.

Do you know any atheists who worship lowly servants? In my observations they seem to be caught up in the rat race of achieving fame and fortune like we all robotically do before we awaken (rebirth). However, if an atheist does come to worship lowly service but does not believe in Jesus or God (by definition) doesn’t it seem a bit unfair for God to keep His arms open wide to them? And what about the atheist who doesn’t serve or love? Doesn’t it seem unfair for God to love and forgive them without condition? ** Yet, how could God not love and forgive them unconditionally if He is asking us to do just that?** How could God, whose love and mercy has no limit, not keep his arms open and forgiving to those who do the worst?

Sermon over. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to preach.

Some of the above is a false gospel. God’s forgiveness is dependent upon the sinner repentance.

CCC:

THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God’s mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."4

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus’ call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.

It is called the sacrament of Penance, since it consecrates the Christian sinner’s personal and ecclesial steps of conversion, penance, and satisfaction.

1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a “confession” - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest’s sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6

It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."7 He who lives by God’s merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord’s call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."8

This quote from the Catechism makes it quite clear the conversion and confession must be present and must precede forgiveness.

 

[OneSheep]

No.

No, it is a willful choice.

So, pride is a willful choice? Please provide an example of a pride.

Where and in what context does he say this.

Woops. It was St. Paul:
Ephesians 5:29New International Version (NIV)

29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church

But it is certainly implied in “Love your neighbor as yourself.”, for what good would it be for the person to hate himself and treat his neighbor with hate? No, everyone loves himself or herself, deep down.

No.

Yes, vaccinating your child.

No sin is an accident. All sins are the result of deliberate choices.

Vaccinating a child is not a net hurtful event, therefore it doesn’t meet the sin=hurtful behavior criteria. Do you have another example to test?

Some of the above is a false gospel. God’s forgiveness is dependent upon the sinner repentance.

Remember this always, David: Jesus forgave the unrepentant crowd from the cross. Please do not diminish or deny this extremely important part of our faith and of history. It was a world-changing moment. This is Gospel.

Luke 23:34New International Version (NIV)

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

This quote from the Catechism makes it quite clear the conversion and confession must be present and must precede forgiveness.

So, what part of CCC 1422-1424 says that God’s forgiveness depends on conversion and confession. Please be specific! I don’t see it.

What you may mean is this: yes, repentance on the part of the sinner is what is needed for the person to fully realize reconciliation, it takes two. But it only takes one party to forgive, and God’s forgiveness is there, always. Need I remind you of the May 19 Tweet? Reconciliation requires something from the sinner, a repentance, in order to gain or regain functional relationship. So, what good is God’s forgiveness for the person still caught up in the habit of sin/hurtful behaviors? They are still robots, essentially dead. Like you said, repentance is very important, but it is important in order to realize the life that Jesus wants for us, a full life, a free life.

What did you think of the 60 minutes report? Pretty cool, huh?

Remember, David, I am not saying that your approach is “false”. It is not, but there are perfectly acceptable other Catholic ways of looking at these things.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi DavidV

You quoted from the catechism and I’m not sure people understand what this means.
You posted:

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus’ call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.

You’re speaking about the sacrament of reconciliation.

We just have to be careful because many that begin bible study have the idea that you have to be “good” first and then come to God - when really it’s the opposite: You come to God first and then you learn to be “good”. It’s in quotation marks because only our Father in heaven is good - as Jesus stated.

AFTER you’ve come to God, accepted your new life with God, been converted, been saved or whatever you want to call it - then when you “fall” you confess you wrongdoing or sin, either to God or in a confessional, and your relationship is reestablished. It’s not like it had disintegrated but God likes to hear that we’re sorry.

So let’s be careful how we say that. It’s the sacrament of conversion because in this sacrament Jesus is calling us to conversion, or a change. But a change within the relationship. Because the initial relationship has already happened when you decided to live your christianity.

And I agree with you that we are forgiven when we’re sorry. If we’re not sorry how could we be forgiven? O.S. is right in that God is always waiting to forgive us. But being forgiven entails asking for forgiveness. In one way or another. Some contact must be made or the heart becomes hard.

O.S. speaks of a rebirth. I believe that once that rebirth happens, and we stay close to God in our relationship with Him, then we can have that full life and be assured of His forgiveness.

Just wanted to make that point about coming to God first. Some people wait around until they’re perfect. Like they could ever be!

Fran

 

[davidv]

Hi DavidV

You quoted from the catechism and I’m not sure people understand what this means.
You posted:

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus’ call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.

You’re speaking about the sacrament of reconciliation.

We just have to be careful because many that begin bible study have the idea that you have to be “good” first and then come to God - when really it’s the opposite:

I am not sure how what I wrote could be interpreted this way.

You come to God first and then you learn to be “good”. It’s in quotation marks because only our Father in heaven is good - as Jesus stated.

AFTER you’ve come to God, accepted your new life with God, been converted, been saved or whatever you want to call it - then when you “fall” you confess you wrongdoing or sin, either to God or in a confessional, and your relationship is reestablished. It’s not like it had disintegrated but God likes to hear that we’re sorry.

So let’s be careful how we say that. It’s the sacrament of conversion because in this sacrament Jesus is calling us to conversion, or a change. But a change within the relationship. Because the initial relationship has already happened when you decided to live your christianity.

And I agree with you that we are forgiven when we’re sorry. If we’re not sorry how could we be forgiven? O.S. is right in that God is always waiting to forgive us. But being forgiven entails asking for forgiveness. In one way or another. Some contact must be made or the heart becomes hard.

O.S. speaks of a rebirth. I believe that once that rebirth happens, and we stay close to God in our relationship with Him, then we can have that full life and be assured of His forgiveness.

Just wanted to make that point about coming to God first. Some people wait around until they’re perfect. Like they could ever be!

Fran

Agree with all of the above.

 

[davidv]

So, pride is a willful choice? Please provide an example of a pride.

Woops. It was St. Paul:
Ephesians 5:29New International Version (NIV)

29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church

But it is certainly implied in “Love your neighbor as yourself.”, for what good would it be for the person to hate himself and treat his neighbor with hate? No, everyone loves himself or herself, deep down.

Vaccinating a child is not a net hurtful event, therefore it doesn’t meet the sin=hurtful behavior criteria. Do you have another example to test?

Why are you moving the goal posts?

Remember this always, David: Jesus forgave the unrepentant crowd from the cross.

The verse quoted does not say they were unrepentant. It says they did not know. These are very different things.

Please do not diminish or deny this extremely important part of our faith and of history. It was a world-changing moment. This is Gospel.

Luke 23:34New International Version (NIV)

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

So, what part of CCC 1422-1424 says that God’s forgiveness depends on conversion and confession. Please be specific! I don’t see it.

If you don’t see it, I don’t think I can show it to you.

what you may mean is this: yes, repentance on the part of the sinner is what is needed for the person to fully realize reconciliation, it takes two. But it only takes one party to forgive, and God’s forgiveness is there, always. Need I remind you of the May 19 Tweet?

Huh?

Reconciliation requires something from the sinner, a repentance, in order to gain or regain functional relationship. So, what good is God’s forgiveness for the person still caught up in the habit of sin/hurtful behaviors? They are still robots, essentially dead. Like you said, repentance is very important, but it is important in order to realize the life that Jesus wants for us, a full life, a free life.

What did you think of the 60 minutes report? Pretty cool, huh?

Cannot say as I have not seen it.

Remember, David, I am not saying that your approach is “false”. It is not, but there are perfectly acceptable other Catholic ways of looking at these things.

Actually you are saying it is false because what you claim contradictory to what I have stated. Either repentance comes before God’s forgiveness, or it does not. God is waiting, but the sinner has to make the first move and that move must be repentance.

 

[guanophore]

The only thing I will say is why I spent so much time on this.  Something I don't ordinarily do on these threads of CAF.

Fran

Great post Fran, well worth the time and effort.

 

[OneSheep]

Why are you moving the goal posts?

David, you said that my simple definition of sin “hurtful behavior” was inadequate. You have yet to find an example of when the definition is inadequate. I am not moving the goal posts. A vaccination is not hurtful, it is helpful.

The verse quoted does not say they were unrepentant. It says they did not know. These are very different things.

If you are saying that the crowd was either repentant or their repentance was unknown, you are changing the whole intent and meaning of Jesus call to forgive. David, if they would have repented, they would have realized that what they were doing was wrong, so Jesus’ words would have been unfounded. Please do not take away from this very important verse, which is referenced to the stoning of St. Stephen. Are you saying those who stoned St. Stephen were also perhaps repenting?

If you don’t see it, I don’t think I can show it to you.

You can’t show it to me because it is not there, David. Nothing in the CCC says that God only forgives the person who goes to Confession.

Huh?

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

You must have missed it, I’ve posted it several times.

Cannot say as I have not seen it.

Here it is again, David:

youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU

You asked for a basis for my statements about human nature, and there is an example!

Actually you are saying it is false because what you claim contradictory to what I have stated. Either repentance comes before God’s forgiveness, or it does not. God is waiting, but the sinner has to make the first move and that move must be repentance.

The sinner has to make the first move? Where did you read that? God has already made the first move, here it is again:

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

Does a loving Father wait for his troubled child to come to him? What kind of Father does that? No, David, the Father goes after the lost sheep. Repentant sheep are not lost. Unrepentant sheep are lost.

Are you feeling a little grumpy? Put a smile on your face, David! All is well. All is good, The world gets better every day, really. And God loves us and forgives us unconditionally, always! Isn’t that good news? Forgiveness is free, no strings attached! Can you accept that? Can you receive that without paying for it?

Hey, its only 9 days until Christmas!

 

[frangiuliano115]

I am not sure how what I wrote could be interpreted this way.

Agree with all of the above.

Good morning,

It’s not what YOU wrote. It’s what’s in the CCC. I know that you know what’s right but people reading along may not.

Here’s what the CCC says that you posted:

I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus’ call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.

It makes it seem like a person goes to confession and THEN gets converted. Actually, if they’re at confession, they’re converted already.

First you decide to follow God, then you do what you feel is necessary to adhere to your new faith.

Confession could be a matter of faith, or it could be a ritual. I like to point this out. I’ve learned that there are people reading along who are trying to learn their faith here on CAF.

Just to clarify that it wasn’t anything you said.

Fran

 

[davidv]

David, you said that my simple definition of sin “hurtful behavior” was inadequate. You have yet to find an example of when the definition is inadequate. I am not moving the goal posts. A vaccination is not hurtful, it is helpful.

If you are saying that the crowd was either repentant or their repentance was unknown, you are changing the whole intent and meaning of Jesus call to forgive. David, if they would have repented, they would have realized that what they were doing was wrong, so Jesus’ words would have been unfounded. Please do not take away from this very important verse, which is referenced to the stoning of St. Stephen. Are you saying those who stoned St. Stephen were also perhaps repenting?

You can’t show it to me because it is not there, David. Nothing in the CCC says that God only forgives the person who goes to Confession.

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

You must have missed it, I’ve posted it several times.

Here it is again, David:

youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU

You asked for a basis for my statements about human nature, and there is an example!

The sinner has to make the first move? Where did you read that? God has already made the first move, here it is again:

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

Does a loving Father wait for his troubled child to come to him? What kind of Father does that? No, David, the Father goes after the lost sheep. Repentant sheep are not lost. Unrepentant sheep are lost.

Are you feeling a little grumpy? Put a smile on your face, David! All is well. All is good, The world gets better every day, really. And God loves us and forgives us unconditionally, always! Isn’t that good news? Forgiveness is free, no strings attached! Can you accept that? Can you receive that without paying for it?

Hey, its only 9 days until Christmas!

Since we are getting picky in the numbering of the sequence of events. How about this?

1. God created all that is visible and invisible - all is good
2. Man commits the original sin - death enters the world
3. Jesus is born, suffers, dies and rises from the dead - death is overcome
4. Man continues to sin
5. God is always waiting for the sinner
6. Man repents and returns to God
7. God forgives the repentant.

Steps 4-7, in that order, are evident in the parable of the prodigal son.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Since we are getting picky in the numbering of the sequence of events. How about this?

1. God created all that is visible and invisible - all is good
2. Man commits the original sin - death enters the world
3. Jesus is born, suffers, dies and rises from the dead - death is overcome
4. Man continues to sin
5. God is always waiting for the sinner
6. Man repents and returns to God
7. God forgives the repentant.

Steps 4-7, in that order, are evident in the parable of the prodigal son.

Very good and clear, davidV.

Fran
The Prodigal Son. In my opinion, and that of many priests, is the most important parable in the N.T.

 

[frangiuliano115]

One Sheep,

I don’t know how I could ever answer to all your posts. I think I need a book!

Did you do this on purpose!!



This is staring out at me as I go through:

You say to davidv:

You can’t show it to me because it is not there, David. Nothing in the CCC says that God only forgives the person who goes to Confession.

I’m not going to discuss confession because it’s complicated and I really don’t wish to get into it. Let me just say that if you TRULY believe you don’t have to go to confession, God will judge you on the light you have and that’s all I’m willing to say.

However, I do have to add that YOU’RE the one who is always bringing up Pope Francis and he has repeatedly said that one should go to confession AND that God is waiting for us and willing to forgive. He has always mentioned confession and has made a point of how people don’t go anymore.

You also should not bring up the CCC in this regard because it speaks plainly about the fact that venial sin does not need to be confessed but mortal sin does. It even explains what to do in case you can’t get to confession. (perfect and imperfect contrition).
It also explains how venial sins are forgiven at the Penitential Rite at the beginning of each Mass and also how Communion forgives sin.

Sorry, I can’t take the time to post, but anyone could look this up in the CCC.

O.S. - Be careful with the examples you use!

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

One Sheep,

I don’t know how I could ever answer to all your posts. I think I need a book!

Did you do this on purpose!!



This is staring out at me as I go through:

You say to davidv:

You can’t show it to me because it is not there, David. Nothing in the CCC says that God only forgives the person who goes to Confession.

I’m not going to discuss confession because it’s complicated and I really don’t wish to get into it. Let me just say that if you TRULY believe you don’t have to go to confession, God will judge you on the light you have and that’s all I’m willing to say.

However, I do have to add that YOU’RE the one who is always bringing up Pope Francis and he has repeatedly said that one should go to confession AND that God is waiting for us and willing to forgive. He has always mentioned confession and has made a point of how people don’t go anymore.

You also should not bring up the CCC in this regard because it speaks plainly about the fact that venial sin does not need to be confessed but mortal sin does. It even explains what to do in case you can’t get to confession. (perfect and imperfect contrition).
It also explains how venial sins are forgiven at the Penitential Rite at the beginning of each Mass and also how Communion forgives sin.

Sorry, I can’t take the time to post, but anyone could look this up in the CCC.

O.S. - Be careful with the examples you use!

Fran

HI Fran,

The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Which is the most appropriate name) is extremely important for the spirituality of the believer. The sacrament is not a vehicle for forgiveness from God, for God always forgives. The sacrament is a vehicle for the believer to realize God’s forgiveness, to make it real. The sacrament is a means by which the Christian reconnects with God. God is already connected to us, the disconnect is the person ashamed, and the Priest serves to bridge the gap between the individual and his or her own joyful walk with the Lord. Just as shame compelled Adam and Eve to hide from God, we do the same.

In this light, the “type of sin needing to be confessed” is a guide, but tends to make the sacrament more bureaucratic. If a person is extremely ashamed about not having sent a thank you card to someone last year, cannot forgive himself, then it is time to go to confess. Yes, if that happens often, then the person is probably scrupulous, and there is an underlying fear to deal with, i.e., the person fears a condemning God or is insecure in relationships.

Sorry that I am giving you so much to respond to! Just pick something, like you did.

And did you see? You were complimented on one of your latest posts spelling it all out for me. You are not “in the wrong” on these issues. There is room in the Church for other approaches, and I am explaining an approach that most Catholics are unfamiliar with.

Love and Peace

 

[frangiuliano115]

HI Fran,

The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Which is the most appropriate name) is extremely important for the spirituality of the believer. The sacrament is not a vehicle for forgiveness from God, for God always forgives. The sacrament is a vehicle for the believer to realize God’s forgiveness, to make it real. The sacrament is a means by which the Christian reconnects with God. God is already connected to us, the disconnect is the person ashamed, and the Priest serves to bridge the gap between the individual and his or her own joyful walk with the Lord. Just as shame compelled Adam and Eve to hide from God, we do the same.

In this light, the “type of sin needing to be confessed” is a guide, but tends to make the sacrament more bureaucratic. If a person is extremely ashamed about not having sent a thank you card to someone last year, cannot forgive himself, then it is time to go to confess. Yes, if that happens often, then the person is probably scrupulous, and there is an underlying fear to deal with, i.e., the person fears a condemning God or is insecure in relationships.

Sorry that I am giving you so much to respond to! Just pick something, like you did.

And did you see? You were complimented on one of your latest posts spelling it all out for me. You are not “in the wrong” on these issues. There is room in the Church for other approaches, and I am explaining an approach that most Catholics are unfamiliar with.

Love and Peace

Agree 100%!

I used to explain to my catechism kids the difference between confession and reconciliation. Make one of them stand up in front and I’d “confess” something I was sorry for, like having called him a bad name. At a distance. Then I’d go to him and put my arm around him - that would be reconciliation.

Quite a difference, no?

Yes. Confession could be a useful “tool”. Or it could be a ritual. I’m of the opinion that God doesn’t care for ritual where the heart is not involved.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

HI Fran,

And did you see? You were complimented on one of your latest posts spelling it all out for me. You are not “in the wrong” on these issues. There is room in the Church for other approaches, and I am explaining an approach that most Catholics are unfamiliar with.

Love and Peace

The compliment is because the person knows I don’t spend a lot of time on threads and I made an effort! Not because it was so great…

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Since we are getting picky in the numbering of the sequence of events. How about this?

1. God created all that is visible and invisible - all is good

Cool! I like this sequence idea! First, let us remember that God is omniscient, so there is a previous step, step A (for Alpha).

A. Jesus is alive and part of a Trinity. Jesus already looks at people from the standpoint of a human child, from an adult walking with people, and from the position of being on the cross, forgiving the unrepentant. Before the “create” is hit, God the Father sees all He is to create with infinite love. Yes, He sees that the human will defy Him and kill his Son, and He (the triune) forgives the human before He even creates. He has already followed His Son’s request to forgive Man because the Triune is one in mind. He sees that the way He creates the world will involve some violence, and that violence includes what the human does to the human; the human is born unaware and his survival instincts make human-on-human violence possible. However, He also sees that the human, as a species, grows closer and closer to Love, gaining awareness.

1. Man commits the original sin - death enters the world

What happens is described well in CCC 399:

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives

What happens in “original sin” is that the human conceives a distorted image of God. And, in what I call “the first alternative”, God punishes the human for disobedience by allowing death to happen, among other punishments. In the “second alternative” there is no change whatsoever concerning God’s love and forgiveness of man. God does not punish man at all. The distorted image that man has “conceived” is its own consequence. God already knew that Man would naturally develop a distorted image, and already forgave Man for developing the distortion.

1. Jesus is born, suffers, dies and rises from the dead - death is overcome

Incarnation, though a point in history, is not to be seen as a timelined event, where death itself was not overcome before the point in history. Adam and Eve probably chose heaven just as we do. What happened in that point in history is that man became aware of Christ, He revealed Himself to us. Jesus erased the distorted image we had of God and man. When we forgive, we erase the distorted image we have of fellow man. When we love and forgive everyone, unconditionally, then we have the means to see that God does even more, which erases the image of a God who condemns.

1. Man continues to sin
2. God is always waiting for the sinner

Yes, awareness comes slowly, and God waits with open, forgiving arms.

1. Man repents and returns to God

Yes, with awareness, Man overcomes the distortions and turns to God. “Return” implies that Man was once more connected to God, as a species. The belief is contrary to the unidirectional trend of Man’s growing relationship with God in history.

1. God forgives the repentant.

Yes, and God forgives the unrepentant too. This already happened in step A.

Steps 4-7, in that order, are evident in the parable of the prodigal son.

Others say that it is evident that the Father had already forgiven the son. I agree with them.

So, let me add another step, we can call it “O” for “Omega”

O. Jesus draws all of humanity to Himself, to Love. The whole universe is One.

Do you see, David, in the steps I show, God’s infinite love is unchanging, not dependent on the behavior of Man. His love is unwavering and unconditional. Jesus comes not to change God’s mind about Man, because there is no need of change. Jesus comes to change Man’s mind about God (and fellow man).

That was fun, David! Thanks!

P.S.: Would you have repented, turned to God, if you knew that God had already forgiven you? Or, would you have rejected the forgiving God, saying “I do not believe in this God” and continued in non-repentance? So, if you would have rejected, fear would not have inspired your turn to Him. Instead, the inspiration to turn to God would have happened more slowly, it would have followed from suffering the distorted (but natural) way we have of looking at life and the world, and instead of fear it would have been Love Itself drawing you to Him. I am not putting down fear, though; for fear is self-protection, and there is love in self-protection. What I am saying is that there are many different journeys to the divine.

 

[davidv]

{snip}
Yes, and God forgives the unrepentant too.
{snip}

Please cite a Church teaching that supports this claim. And don’t repeat the Pope quote that is taken out of context and misinterpreted.

 

[OneSheep]

Please cite a Church teaching that supports this claim. And don’t repeat the Pope quote that is taken out of context and misinterpreted.

Hi David,

You are mistaken by saying that the quote was taken out of context. The comment was a stand-alone tweet, it was not drawn from a longer text. So, it appears that you have made a false accusation. Do you repent? Well, probably not, because it is likely that you are thinking of the “context” of the Pope’s teachings as a whole. Well then, do you know the Pope’s teachings as a whole? Is he claiming that Jesus did not forgive the unrepentant from the cross? I think not. If you do not know, then your accusation remains unfounded.

It is a bit difficult to find Catholic teachings one way or another. I did run across the book, Good Goats: Healing our Image of God in which the authors support the same conclusion that I had, and their book received an imprimatur from their Bishop.

It is a matter of logic, David, and not deep logic at that. Jesus said, “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Is He referring to members of the crowd that are suddenly repentant? No, this does not make sense, if they were repentant then they had been enlightened that what they were doing was wrong, Indeed, if there were any repentant there, then the statement does not apply, because they suddenly realized what they were doing.

Is he referring to the bystanders who were simply watching without agreeing with what was going on, and He was forgiving them? If that was the case, then why do Bibles make reference to the same statement made from St. Stephen as the angry crowd was stoning him to death?

Now, I suppose you could say that both St. Stephen and Jesus were speaking to the bystanders. Are you forgetting that Jesus challenges us to go beyond our natural inclination? Any person can forgive the repentant and the bystander, it is the unrepentant that are the hardest to forgive! Yet, when we do not forgive an individual for any reason, that grudge, that resentment, takes away from our wholeness, our holiness.

Have you tried it, David? Have you tried to forgive an unrepentant person and failed? Or is it that you have fears that if God forgives the unrepentant, the whole of Christianity and the human race will turn to mayhem? What is your resistance to what Jesus did from the cross, which was to forgive the unrepentant?

Do you realize that you are promoting non-forgiveness, giving people a reason to hang onto grudges? Indeed, would we want the people of ISIS to refrain from forgiving us because in their eyes we have not “repented”? Do you see the ramifications of attempts to stifle forgiveness? Forgiveness builds the Kingdom.

Do pray on this David. I will pray for you.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi One Sheep,

It’s late here but I had a thought.

What happened to the other thief on the cross?
in Greek it’s actually “evil doer.”

To the “evil doer” that was repentant and asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came to His kingdom Jesus said,
“Today you will be with me in paradise.”

He didn’t say anything to the second one that not only didn’t repent but hurled insults at Him,
It would seem to me that Jesus did not forgive him and that he surely wasn’t going to paradise with Jesus that day.

Luke 23:29

What do you think??

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

God’s unconditional love and forgiveness is foreign to Christianity in general? Did I recommend Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God to you? One of the authors is a Jesuit, as is Pope Francis, but Franciscan theology is also reflecting such an image of God. There is a place for this theology, just as there is a place for more “mainstream” theology.

Your view is in line with a God who is focused on “condemning the sinner”, but contradicts the image of God who goes after the lost sheep. And when God goes after that lost sheep, He has an omnipotent means of revealing Himself to that sheep. Anything that we say that limits what God can do, when He can do it, or why He does it (limitless love) is a contradiction of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

A decision to walk away from God and live without Him? Does it happen? Perhaps, but only when he or she is not “knowingly and willingly” doing so. And, since our benevolent God would never let a sheep lost in ignorance choose against Him …

O.S.,

You know I can’t get the book here, but I did read a little about it online. it’s the best I could do.

While we were yet sinner… Yes. God loved us while we were yet sinners. His grace falls on all or how would we ever get to Him? Let’s remember, though, that the letters in the N.T. were written to believers. So they are NOT sinners anymore.

I like the first concept in the book which is that God is not just waiting around trying to catch you in sin. This reminds me of Ben Carson. He keeps talking about the journalists having a “gotcha” attitude. So, yes. God is certainly not like this.

This is the “works” mentality. Which is wrong. It says that we have to work our way to heaven. We have to do everything just right. It’s like our salvation depends on US instead of depending on Jesus.
So I totally agree with this first concept.

The idea of the sacrifice as love and a way to teach life instead of as payment. I have to think on that a bit. It’s a general idea now in the church and is not new. It does seem to me like some payment must be made. ** Why were there sacrifices in the O.T. otherwise?? Is God different in the N.T.? ** I feel very comforted that Jesus paid my debt and I can rest easy. I feel very free in knowing that He covers for my sins.

I’m having a really difficult time with the being saved after death idea. I just can’t see this anywhere in scripture. ** You have the book, does it have any proof verses? ** Everything I know from years of reading and studying and depending on my own rapport with God, tells me that I must make up my mind now while I am still alive. If not, then what is faith all about? Why would I need faith if I get a chance after death?

I’m being reminded of when the N.T. says that in the end days there will be false prophets. Mathew 24:11…

And what about 2 Peter 2:1 and then 2:20 and on to the end of the book.

This doesn’t sound like a really weird teaching to you?

Why does the bible keep talking about repenting and converting?

I do believe that once you repent, convert, get faith, are saved, or whatever - THEN you are protected by God’s love. Some of these threads make me a little worried about the posters. Worrying about sinning all the time, about being in mortal sin. That goes too far the other way.

But what about my questions above??

Fran