Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[frangiuliano115]

I don’t know if there are no go zones in the US, I don’t think we in UK have any, I know certain people are barred from entering the UK, but to stop regular people traveling is insane.

One person running for the US president has caused a lot of talk, now there is a petition to ban him from entering the UK! We love our petitions over here! It’s all mad :yup:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505

Here’s an interesting piece about what some think of bombing Syria, notice it gets little publicity compared to these for the bombing.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/veterans-throw-away-their-war-medals-in-disgust-at-british-air-strikes-in-syria-a6765446.html

I’d be surprised if Donald Trump was barred from entering the UK. It does make good news though and some parties do take advantage, don’t they?

Simpleas, you don’t seem to know what a No Go Zone is. It has nothing to do with anyone entering England. It has to do with people already there and other people entering certain zones.

Please find out - I don’t wish to change One Sheep’s thread.

Fran

 

[simpleas]

I’d be surprised if Donald Trump was barred from entering the UK. It does make good news though and some parties do take advantage, don’t they?

Simpleas, you don’t seem to know what a No Go Zone is. It has nothing to do with anyone entering England. It has to do with people already there and other people entering certain zones.

Please find out - I don’t wish to change One Sheep’s thread.

Fran

Yes they take advantage.

That is why I said I didn’t know if there were no go zones…quick google search brought up some info on police not entering certain areas in uniform here in UK, but nothing about a whole race of people being stopped from entering a country, which is what I thought you meant.

 

[tonyrey]

The answer to the OP is simple:

We don’t know!

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t know if there are no go zones in the US, I don’t think we in UK have any, I know certain people are barred from entering the UK, but to stop regular people traveling is insane.

One person running for the US president has caused a lot of talk, now there is a petition to ban him from entering the UK! We love our petitions over here! It’s all mad :yup:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505

I loved that article! It is amazing that the petition will actually be addressed by parliament. Did you see the quote by the London mayor, “the only reason I wouldn’t go to some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump”?

Actually, though, Trump is triggering big discussion here in the U.S. Muslim leaders are given air time to respond and assure people that ISIS is a political party, not a religious movement. There is not a single Federal Representative or Senator who has said anything in agreement with him, and now it appears he is down in the polls. It is all really amazing, fantastic. I mean, Trump is blind, and he is so caught up in his status that he leaves a very bad impression with most people, so the majority of people do not want to share his opinions on anything. He means well, but he is blind.

Here’s an interesting piece about what some think of bombing Syria, notice it gets little publicity compared to these for the bombing.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/veterans-throw-away-their-war-medals-in-disgust-at-british-air-strikes-in-syria-a6765446.html

Thanks for the great link!

Pope Francis is (was?) in Africa, encouraging youths to interact with people of other religions so that those others do not become “radicalized”. I am not fond of the word “radicalized” because it is largely undefined and dehumanizing, but his call for interaction and reconciliation is well-placed, of course!

 

[OneSheep]

The answer to the OP is simple:

We don’t know!

Well Tony, you’re quite right, sort of.

The way I look at it is this: If we address all of the possible scenarios of what appears to be a knowing and willing rejection, and all scenarios and examples end up with the same observation, that there was not a knowing and willing rejection, then one is left with the only conclusion possible: that there is no such thing as a human K&WRG.

We are trying to address all of the possibilities. Can you think of one? It is much more difficult than one initially thinks.

Thanks!

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes they take advantage.

That is why I said I didn’t know if there were no go zones…quick google search brought up some info on police not entering certain areas in uniform here in UK, but nothing about a whole race of people being stopped from entering a country, which is what I thought you meant.

Okay. You got what a no go zone is. But do you know why they can’t enter?
Because that particular zone has its own laws being followed, which are above England’s laws. Let’s end it here but let’s ponder what it means.

Fran

 

[simpleas]

I loved that article! It is amazing that the petition will actually be addressed by parliament. Did you see the quote by the London mayor, “the only reason I wouldn’t go to some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump”?

Actually, though, Trump is triggering big discussion here in the U.S. Muslim leaders are given air time to respond and assure people that ISIS is a political party, not a religious movement. There is not a single Federal Representative or Senator who has said anything in agreement with him, and now it appears he is down in the polls. It is all really amazing, fantastic. I mean, Trump is blind, and he is so caught up in his status that he leaves a very bad impression with most people, so the majority of people do not want to share his opinions on anything. He means well, but he is blind.

Thanks for the great link!

Pope Francis is (was?) in Africa, encouraging youths to interact with people of other religions so that those others do not become “radicalized”. I am not fond of the word “radicalized” because it is largely undefined and dehumanizing, but his call for interaction and reconciliation is well-placed, of course!

Yeah, good old Boris, he’s a card…

300,000 signatures! It’s not gonna happen though.

So there is some good in what trump said in that Muslim leaders are getting their voices heard.

Yes there is probably too much fear surrounding different beliefs, to much ignorance and that leads to more fear.

 

[simpleas]

Okay. You got what a no go zone is. But do you know why they can’t enter?
Because that particular zone has its own laws being followed, which are above England’s laws. Let’s end it here but let’s ponder what it means.

Fran

I’ll take it you have a credible source for your information, I am not aware of any “zone” in England with it’s own laws. I could be wrong

Thanks.

 

[tonyrey]

Well Tony, you’re quite right, sort of.

The way I look at it is this: If we address all of the possible scenarios of what appears to be a knowing and willing rejection, and all scenarios and examples end up with the same observation, that there was not a knowing and willing rejection, then one is left with the only conclusion possible: that there is no such thing as a human K&WRG.

We are trying to address all of the possibilities. Can you think of one? It is much more difficult than one initially thinks.

Thanks!

A possibility is that we can choose to live for ourselves rather than God. The lust for power is often so strong in this life why shouldn’t it prevail after death?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well Tony, you’re quite right, sort of.

The way I look at it is this: If we address all of the possible scenarios of what appears to be a knowing and willing rejection, and all scenarios and examples end up with the same observation, that there was not a knowing and willing rejection, then one is left with the only conclusion possible: that there is no such thing as a human K&WRG. I am still waiting for you to prove that ALL scenarios 'end up with there not being a knowing and willing rejection. Further, how can you possibly address all possible scenarios? Each individual human who faces this scenario --sometimes hundreds, thousands of times in a lifetime–with all sorts of different variables in the situation-- multiplied by how many billion people? And you think that you can know that for every single one of these that the person could not have knowingly and willingly rejected God?

We are trying to address all of the possibilities. Can you think of one? It is much more difficult than one initially thinks.

It’s not difficult (cough, Adam, cough). What is difficult is getting somebody to drop his biased worldview enough to consider that no matter how he tries to fiddle and claim that a person was not ‘fully aware’ (as if the person needs the theological bra(name removed by moderator)ower of an Aquinas to determine, “Hey, I’m going to cheat on my wife even though I know I’m breaking my marriage vow” is a mortal sin). Or that because the poor fellow was ‘addicted to porn’ or ‘had a drink or two’ or had been egged on by friends, or his wife ‘didn’t understand him’ or blah blah blah that he didn’t REALLY fully consent. OR that because he was ‘conditioned to FEAR God’ that he was rebelling against that ‘made up view’ and thus didn’t really reject the REAL GOD. . .blah blah blah.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. .

Did you miss me? I was sidelined by not just the flu but a rather serious illness from which I am just beginning to recover at LONG last. Glad to see the thread didn’t disappear while I was on the sidelines. . .

And oh, have a lovely evening!

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

A possibility is that we can choose to live for ourselves rather than God. The lust for power is often so strong in this life why shouldn’t it prevail after death?

Okay, great example, Tony! Let’s see if it holds up to scrutiny.

You actually have two issues going on there, but can we address them one at a time? First of all, can we agree on the use of “knowingly”? To me, “knowingly” means having all of the relevant information, and not be blinded to the information, such blindness due to desire or resentment. For the person to do something “willingly”, it means that their will is to reject God Himself. If the person intends to reject a law but is not wanting to reject God Himself, this is not a “willing” rejection, but an unintended side effect of wanting something else (again, probably effected by blindness).

So in the “lust for power” case, does the person realize that all power comes from God, and without Him, we have no power whatsoever? In addition, does he actually want to reject God? If so, is it because he is saying “I don’t need God?”

Thanks for your response!

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Tantum ergo, and welcome back!

I pray for your continued recovery, you must have had a nasty bout of something. I am glad you are again feeling well enough to continue here.

I am still waiting for you to prove that ALL scenarios 'end up with there not being a knowing and willing rejection.

Scenarios are as finite in number as our own imaginations are finite. We can exhaust all of the possibilities, but we have not yet done that on this thread. So, a bit of patience is necessary…

Further, how can you possibly address all possible scenarios? Each individual human who faces this scenario --sometimes hundreds, thousands of times in a lifetime–with all sorts of different variables in the situation-- multiplied by how many billion people? And you think that you can know that for every single one of these that the person could not have knowingly and willingly rejected God?

There is a very important scripture that addresses this:

Matthew 6:22-23New International Version (NIV)

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,[a] your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy,** your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!**

So, since all of us have somewhat “unhealthy” eyes (actually, I think the word should be “compromised”) we all see a bit of “darkness” within. And when we see darkness, the darkness seems infinite! It is an unknown amount of darkness, which appears to be an infinite amount of darkness.

This is a very, very important aspect of the question and this exercise, Tantum ergo. I did not realize that the darkness was finite until I illuminated the whole works, which involved addressing every possible scenario I could think of (at the time). When one has addressed all of the darkness, shining the light on all within (all that is accessible) then there is none left at the moment. And then, in the moment, one can make a conclusion. This is not to say that other scenarios can surface, they can! However, I continue to address all the scenarios that surface, and I observe the same phenomenon that I had seen before. People do not K&WRG. I am still looking for that counterexample.

It’s not difficult (cough, Adam, cough). What is difficult is getting somebody to drop his biased worldview enough to consider that no matter how he tries to fiddle and claim that a person was not ‘fully aware’ (as if the person needs the theological bra(name removed by moderator)ower of an Aquinas to determine, “Hey, I’m going to cheat on my wife even though I know I’m breaking my marriage vow” is a mortal sin). Or that because the poor fellow was ‘addicted to porn’ or ‘had a drink or two’ or had been egged on by friends, or his wife ‘didn’t understand him’ or blah blah blah that he didn’t REALLY fully consent. OR that because he was ‘conditioned to FEAR God’ that he was rebelling against that ‘made up view’ and thus didn’t really reject the REAL GOD. . .blah blah blah.

Wow, lots of great scenarios to address. Would you like to pick one, and we can investigate it? First, let’s agree on something “up front” this time: No matter what the person’s reason is, no matter what we conclude about their own knowing and willing, there are no excuses from consequence for their behavior. No excuses! See, if we do not eliminate that constant “push” for fairness and everyone-getting-their-due-consequence, it is very difficult to be objective. We protect our desire for justice with all we have, right? “I dare not understand reasons and intent behind hurtful acts, because I refuse to let go of a person receiving their just punishment.” This is a very natural hesitation (revulsion?) toward understanding others, right?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. .

Did you miss me? I was sidelined by not just the flu but a rather serious illness from which I am just beginning to recover at LONG last. Glad to see the thread didn’t disappear while I was on the sidelines. . .

And oh, have a lovely evening!

Thanks!

I heard an interview of Tom Jones on the radio today. A cigar is not just a cigar. There are Cuban cigars…. You know, this thread has been going on for three months now, and you were here in the beginning. Hey, we have our different outlooks, but it is nice to have you back. Please recover from your illness, so we can continue to kick this topic around!

And thanks, here in California we had a lovely, slightly rainy evening, which is at least a partial answer to our prayers.

May the Lord Bless your health, that you may continue to enjoy those grandchildren, and they may continue to enjoy you.

 

[OneSheep]

Tantum ergo:

It’s not difficult (cough, Adam, cough). What is difficult is getting somebody to drop his biased worldview enough to consider that no matter how he tries to fiddle and claim that a person was not ‘fully aware’ (as if the person needs the theological bra(name removed by moderator)ower of an Aquinas to determine, “Hey, I’m going to cheat on my wife even though I know I’m breaking my marriage vow” is a mortal sin). Or that because the poor fellow was ‘addicted to porn’ or ‘had a drink or two’ or had been egged on by friends, or his wife ‘didn’t understand him’ or blah blah blah that he didn’t REALLY fully consent. OR that because he was ‘conditioned to FEAR God’ that he was rebelling against that ‘made up view’ and thus didn’t really reject the REAL GOD. . .blah blah blah.

Hi Again, Tantum ergo,

You had me at “blah blah blah”.

Just to clarify my last post, the reason I want us to remain dedicated to “no excuses”, as a discipline, is that it is so very human to fear that if we understand someone’s bad actions, we are going to excuse those actions, or worse yet, condone those actions. Indeed it is very possible for the mind to automatically set up a rule “Thou shalt not understand why people do evil.” in fear of letting go of punishment. Hear me out on this.

I am certain that in our own minds, the very first punishment that we instill on any hurtful action is non-acceptance. When we violate our own rules, it is the same. If I lie to someone, my conscience punishes me with non-acceptance of myself. Now, if I turn around and enter into why I lied, and come to understand all of my motives and blindness that were involved, seeing that my intent was not to hurt, for example, but to protect something dear, then I may indeed come to forgive myself, to reconcile within. The understanding and ability to forgive are gifts from God.

Therefore, it does not take more than a few times of this process to learn that Understanding leads to forgiveness, eventually. However, when I am still resenting someone, forgiveness is very naturally the last thing that comes to mind! Indeed, instead of forgiving, we want to hang onto our resentment, continue to punish the person that we saw so egregiously violate what we see as good and pure. So we look at these actions,

• a person cheating on his wife
• a person uses porn
• a person abuses alcohol

and our initial reaction very well may be that we resist any use of the gift of understanding in the process of forgiveness. We do not want to excuse these behaviors. I agree with you!

So, if we remain dedicated to “no excuses” during the process of understanding and forgiving the person, we can waylay the fear of condoning bad behavior.

There are reasons, not excuses, for people’s behaviors, and in the Anthropology I observe, people intend well, but they are blind and/or unaware, and therefore we sometimes do hurtful acts. Again, this is my observation.

So, if you would like to scrutinize a case of one of the above, and prove my observations invalid, please do so!

Peace and Gratitude

 

[tonyrey]

A possibility is that we can choose to live for ourselves rather than God. The lust for power is often so strong in this life why shouldn’t it prevail after death?Okay, great example, Tony! Let’s see if it holds up to scrutiny.

When we die God wouldn’t let us go to Hell without ensuring we are fully aware of what we are doing because He is infinitely good and cares for us far more than we care for ourselves. That is why Jesus warned us about the danger of pride and selfishness. Hell is not a trap: it is a kingdom of our own and if we choose to be independent we shall know exactly what we are doing.

 

[OneSheep]

When we die God wouldn’t let us go to Hell without ensuring we are fully aware of what we are doing because He is infinitely good and cares for us far more than we care for ourselves. That is why Jesus warned us about the danger of pride and selfishness. Hell is not a trap: it is a kingdom of our own and if we choose to be independent we shall know exactly what we are doing.

Yes, we shall know exactly what we are doing, God would make us fully aware of what we are doing.

Thus, the nature of God: infinitely merciful, unconditionally loving and forgiving. We are definitely on the same page here.

But are you seeing what I am observing about human nature? Humans by nature choose love, choose what is right, when fully aware of the options - when they are fully aware of what they are doing.

Can a person choose to be led by “pride” or “selfishness” in their decisions and fully know what they are doing? Not really, right?

Thanks for your response!

 

[simpleas]

Did God make Adam fully aware of what he was doing? If the first two fully human beings were aware then humans by nature do not choose love and what s right, they choose pride and selfishness., that is what the teaching on Original Sin explains about human nature, but not all humans are like this. We might start off as child selfish, but learn by love and acceptance to give to others.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Did God make Adam fully aware of what he was doing? If the first two fully human beings were aware then humans by nature do not choose love and what s right, they choose pride and selfishness., that is what the teaching on Original Sin explains about human nature, but not all humans are like this. We might start off as child selfish, but learn by love and acceptance to give to others.

Hi Simpleas,

What exactly does original sin teach about human nature?

You don’t think all human beings are “like this”?

Which ones aren’t?

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

**Yes, we shall know exactly what we are doing, God would make us fully aware of what we are doing. **

Thus, the nature of God: infinitely merciful, unconditionally loving and forgiving. We are definitely on the same page here.

But are you seeing what I am observing about human nature? Humans by nature choose love, choose what is right, when fully aware of the options - when they are fully aware of what they are doing.

Can a person choose to be led by “pride” or “selfishness” in their decisions and fully know what they are doing? Not really, right?

Thanks for your response!

Wait One Sheep.

God WOULD make us fully aware.
When?
I’ve lost you. I thought you were saying that we’re NOT aware. I know I’m not understanding something up there. Too bad I don’t drink coffee!

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Wait One Sheep.

God WOULD make us fully aware.
When?
I’ve lost you. I thought you were saying that we’re NOT aware. I know I’m not understanding something up there. Too bad I don’t drink coffee!

Fran

Yes, and since most people are mostly unaware, up to and including the time of death, it would be less than benevolent on God’s part to do All He can (and that is an omnipotent All) to make us aware - even after death.

So you see, God is good, and so is the human.

God’s Peace

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes, and since most people are mostly unaware, up to and including the time of death, it would be less than benevolent on God’s part to do All He can (and that is an omnipotent All) to make us aware - even after death.

So you see, God is good, and so is the human.

God’s Peace

Interesting. You know that I live in a rather small area where the catholic church reigns supreme. A nice bunch of JW. They’re all over. We should learn their “system.”
An Assembly of God up in one town with about 10 members, if that many.

And a brand new church in the same town with about 15 members. I read their doctrinal statement and they believe you could be saved after death.

This goes against everything I’ve read in the N.T. (and the Old). If we could make up our minds WHILE SEEING GOD, how could we ever choose otherwise? So, is this what you believe? If so, could you explain?

Fran
P.S. i don’t think that by nature humans are good, but that’s an old story…