Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[OneSheep]

Yeah, at the end of the day we are all sinners, even the ones who think they are “holier than thou”
On my side of the world our diocese is to close half of our parishes we have many small communities, not enough people attending Mass each weekend. Apparently we are ok for Priests, just not enough Church goers.

:sad_bye:

That is sad, yes. The Good News is alive, but it seems to get lost in all the politics and trappings of the modern world.

Somehow, Christianity must love and embrace its traditional, yet continue to be open-minded in terms of utilizing modern revelations. What I mean by “modern revelations” is that we know so much more about the human and nature through the use of the sciences, and what we learn tells us more about God. Indeed, the scientist who is not daily experiencing a sense of awe in creation is not looking, and that would be a rare scientist!

Case in point: Our youth thirst for knowledge of the human, so what is the most popular undergrad major in the U.S.? Psychology. There is so much to learn from psychology, and psychology, as a study of creation (the mind) reveals much about ourselves and our God! However, psychology without spirituality is merely discovery and a satisfaction of curiosity. Real Growth involves more than just learning, it involves prayer, self-reflection, and meeting of needs, seeing that the world in a different way, deriving meaning from serving, and healing through reconciliation.

In my experience, what the Catholic Church suffers from is playing the same old tune without putting it into the modern world. Many of our young people find little meaning in the rituals and ancient readings that they associate so much with “Church”. It is great that Pope Francis is emphasizing (as did predecessors) the importance of the human rights and justice for the poor and oppressed, because these give meaning. What I see lacking is addressing the healing that needs to take place in the rest of the populace!

The U.S. suffers so much discord and division, for example. We are one of the most violent nations in the world, evidenced by incarceration and crime rate. And then, who do we look to for answers? We have Donald Trump, spewing discrimination, vitriol and capitalizing ingroup/outgroup mentality, the opposite of Christian values! What our Church needs to do is heal our nation of all its divisiveness and discord. Law cannot do this, and neither can science. Spirituality does this.

But then, how do we forgive our enemies, those that we see as alien, or evil? The Church itself needs some guidance on this, and that is what this thread is about.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes. They do.

In that they reject God and his works, and the things who go with him.

I am not utterly convinced even the atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins did so. They may have had a side to them that was kind and charitable. Say what you will about Hitchens, he displayed a deep empathy for the Kurdish victims of Saddam Hussein’s genocide, as well as other humanitarian causes.

I get the sense the atheists hate a false version of God, or a sense of God that was taught to them, not God Himself. Phillip Pullman gets a lot of flack ( and in some ways rightly so) for writing books about killing God. Yet the God of his Dark Materials is not the God of Christianity, and I get the sense Pulllman just had a deeply misconstrued and false notion of what God and the Church were all about.

Hello, HabemusFrancis, and welcome!

Yes, you have presented examples of people rejecting God, but you are making a strong argument that such rejection is not done “knowingly and willingly”. The examples you are giving are of people who are rejecting something other than the Father-as-infinitely-merciful and other important aspects. They are rejecting false gods, which is not “knowingly” rejecting Truth, and certainly not “willingly” rejecting Love. Do you see what I mean? They are lacking in some very relevant information, i.e. Abba as unconditionally loving and merciful.

It seems to be thrrough ones actions, and attitude toward God and their fellow man that one fully and completly rejects God.

Yes, a person can “fully and completely reject God”. The question is, as in the blindness of those who hung Jesus on the cross, do people ever do so with all of the relevant information? If so, please find a specific example or present a scenario, and we can investigate!

It almsot makes Hell make sense to me. That as horrible as Hell is, it is infinitely preferable to the Damned than being in God’s presnece who they have (sometimes implicitly) sneered at and rejected all their life. If they sneered at and rejected him in life, why would it be any diffferent in death?

I think that would be different in death once all the misconceptions are purged. What I am looking for are examples of someone knowingly and willingly “sneering and rejecting”. My observations are such that when people know all the relevant information about God, and I mean seeing such as Truth, then they choose the path of loving God; the human has an inclination to love.

Thanks for your response!

 

[davidv]

That is sad, yes. The Good News is alive, but it seems to get lost in all the politics and trappings of the modern world.

Somehow, Christianity must love and embrace its traditional, yet continue to be open-minded in terms of utilizing modern revelations. What I mean by “modern revelations” is that we know so much more about the human and nature through the use of the sciences, and what we learn tells us more about God. Indeed, the scientist who is not daily experiencing a sense of awe in creation is not looking, and that would be a rare scientist!

Case in point: Our youth thirst for knowledge of the human, so what is the most popular undergrad major in the U.S.? Psychology. There is so much to learn from psychology, and psychology, as a study of creation (the mind) reveals much about ourselves and our God! However, psychology without spirituality is merely discovery and a satisfaction of curiosity. Real Growth involves more than just learning, it involves prayer, self-reflection, and meeting of needs, seeing that the world in a different way, deriving meaning from serving, and healing through reconciliation.

In my experience, what the Catholic Church suffers from is playing the same old tune without putting it into the modern world. Many of our young people find little meaning in the rituals and ancient readings that they associate so much with “Church”. It is great that Pope Francis is emphasizing (as did predecessors) the importance of the human rights and justice for the poor and oppressed, because these give meaning. What I see lacking is addressing the healing that needs to take place in the rest of the populace!

The U.S. suffers so much discord and division, for example. We are one of the most violent nations in the world, evidenced by incarceration and crime rate. And then, who do we look to for answers? We have Donald Trump, spewing discrimination, vitriol and capitalizing ingroup/outgroup mentality, the opposite of Christian values! What our Church needs to do is heal our nation of all its divisiveness and discord. Law cannot do this, and neither can science. Spirituality does this.

But then, how do we forgive our enemies, those that we see as alien, or evil? The Church itself needs some guidance on this, and that is what this thread is about.

How does our forgiveness help our enemies?

 

[OneSheep]

I think that the Pharisees rejected Jesus in part because of their preconceived notions of who the Messiah would be. He did not fit their concept, so they rejected Him. That was not all there was to it, as you say, they were enamored of power as well.

So, if you are following me on this, they had false notions about God. They were certain that God truly meant for them to finally destroy all of their Earthly enemies, and the Messiah would lead them in this endeavor. When the Pharisees heard “love your enemies”, and saw Jesus embracing the “unclean” and “sinners” they were disgusted, this certainly was not God as they knew him. (And their understanding of God was pretty well supported by the OT, right?)

Therefore, a big part of what they were missing in terms of “relevant information” was that God is truly loving and merciful without limit, that His love is not limited to those the Pharisees saw as “chosen”, “clean”, “righteous”, etc. In addition, their enslavement to desire for power blinded them to openness to the truth.

In Romans, Paul writes that what can be known about God has been made plain through His creation. Honestly, I don’t know how anyone can look at the natural universe and not see the hand of God. But perhaps it just seems that way for me because I already believe God created it?

I share your view of how easy it is to see God in our natural universe! In my own observations the anomalies arise when we see something as negative, and our conscience is constructed in a way such that we cannot see God in the negative. We see negative when we resent, when something violates what we see as Love.

Our consciences are designed in such a way that in our seeing of the negative, we avoid doing hurtful behaviors; so such seeing has its place in our journeys. However, as we grow in love and empathy, this seeing of the negative can hinder our ability to love one another without condition. Indeed, the “conditions” are the negatives themselves. That is why I see the words “forgive them, for they know not what they do” as words for an adult spirituality, a mature spirituality. We can forgive all the negatives, all the trespasses, through use of the gift of Understanding, and part of that understanding, in my experience, is seeing that people truly do not know what they are doing when they reject God.

Again, if you see something I am missing, please point it out. It is quite valuable to have different perspectives on the picture.

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

How does our forgiveness help our enemies?

Hi David,

I’m not sure what part of my post your question addresses, but I will answer your question in the best way I can.

When we forgive our enemies, everyone is “helped”. First of all, when we forgive our enemies we are loving our enemies, which means that we are seeing God’s goodness in them. This seeing is a wholeness, a “holinesss”, to which we are called and is a freedom from enslavement to grudges, resentment, and hate, which hinder our ability to love.

In addition, when we forgive our enemies we are literally a “light for the world”. Given that “we reap what we sow”, if we sow love and forgiveness, we will reap the same. Specifically, it is the hope for the Kingdom in that as we forgive our enemy, eventually he will be inspired to do the same. (And when they do the same, they too will benefit from such forgiving!) Forgiveness changes the whole tone of animosity. When we forgive, we are going against our natural compulsion to return violence with violence. We overcome our compulsions and embrace a supernatural response, one encouraged by Christ. Forgiveness of enemies is a supernatural response.

Did that answer your question?

 

[HabemusFrancis]

Disclaimer:

If anyone was offended by my perception of people rejecting God, I am truly sorry.

I don’t really know. I’m also fairly certain that anyone who says they “Really know” isn’t being 100% honest.

My explanation is the only means I have of rationalizing Hell and rejecting God.

I do know that Judas Iscariot and the High Priests get flack for rejecting Christ and hating him (which Judas at least presumably did.)

Yet their hatred was necessary, was it not? What indeed was the alternative? Would we be better off if Jesus, God made flesh, avoided the crucifixtion, and continued his preaching and ministry until dying at a ripe old age?

People are filled with sadness and distress when they hear of the crucixtion. Yet what could have been a reasonable alternative?

 

[davidv]

Hi David,

I’m not sure what part of my post your question addresses, but I will answer your question in the best way I can.

When we forgive our enemies, everyone is “helped”. First of all, when we forgive our enemies we are loving our enemies, which means that we are seeing God’s goodness in them. This seeing is a wholeness, a “holinesss”, to which we are called and is a freedom from enslavement to grudges, resentment, and hate, which hinder our ability to love.

In addition, when we forgive our enemies we are literally a “light for the world”. Given that “we reap what we sow”, if we sow love and forgiveness, we will reap the same. Specifically, it is the hope for the Kingdom in that as we forgive our enemy, eventually he will be inspired to do the same. (And when they do the same, they too will benefit from such forgiving!) Forgiveness changes the whole tone of animosity. When we forgive, we are going against our natural compulsion to return violence with violence. We overcome our compulsions and embrace a supernatural response, one encouraged by Christ. Forgiveness of enemies is a supernatural response.

Did that answer your question?

Not really, because the things you list seem to be more of a benefit to the forgiver than to the forgiven. The forgiven is still in the darkness of their sin.

 

[OneSheep]

Not really, because the things you list seem to be more of a benefit to the forgiver than to the forgiven. The forgiven is still in the darkness of their sin.

It is true, though, is it not? Forgiveness benefits the forgiver the most. The forgiven may feel some new sense of acceptance from the forgiver, but not necessarily so, he has his own repentance to take on. That repentance may be that he needs to forgive, or it may mean any other number of things, such as remembering to consider the feelings and needs of others, correct?

The forgiven will remain “in the darkness of their sin” until they repent. We can hope that our forgiveness, an act of love, will inspire such repentance.

 

[OneSheep]

Disclaimer:

If anyone was offended by my perception of people rejecting God, I am truly sorry.

I don’t really know. I’m also fairly certain that anyone who says they “Really know” isn’t being 100% honest.

My explanation is the only means I have of rationalizing Hell and rejecting God.

I do know that Judas Iscariot and the High Priests get flack for rejecting Christ and hating him (which Judas at least presumably did.)

Yet their hatred was necessary, was it not? What indeed was the alternative? Would we be better off if Jesus, God made flesh, avoided the crucifixtion, and continued his preaching and ministry until dying at a ripe old age?

People are filled with sadness and distress when they hear of the crucixtion. Yet what could have been a reasonable alternative?

Well, people do reject God, so there is no harm in accepting the fact. The question is, do we ever do so Knowingly and Willingly? Judas, for all we know, may have been in the “Pharisee camp” in that he did not see God in Jesus, he may have seen a “blasphemer”. If so, he was operating under false notions, which was certainly the case with the High Priests. If these were the case, then they did not know what they were doing. That said, there may be other possibilities not addressed here. Feel free to present a different case such that it appears they did know what they were doing, and we can investigate!

Great question: Was the hatred necessary? Perhaps. It was certainly predictable. And I might add that Jesus’ feeling of abandonment, his being subject to torture, and being hated make His life accessible to all of us, especially at the lowest points in our lives.

A reasonable alternative? Yes! The reasonable alternative is that all hearts and minds would change while He still walked the Earth, that we all learned to love one another unconditionally, to have unlimited mercy! Yet, that is what we are still trying to enact, right?

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by OneSheep

That is sad, yes

It is, and I think we will be approaching people with the Good News in more modern ways. For example, as we have a new Bishop, who is making these changes, but also including parishioners to take part more in evangelization, he is also working with the P.P’s discussing how to invite people back to the sacrament of reconciliation.
I will be interested to know what they come up with.

Our priest also made it clear that the recent killings in the abortion clinic could never be condoned. I wonder was there anyone thinking contrary to that…

Somehow, Christianity must love and embrace its traditional, yet continue to be open-minded in terms of utilizing modern revelations. What I mean by “modern revelations” is that we know so much more about the human and nature through the use of the sciences, and what we learn tells us more about God. Indeed, the scientist who is not daily experiencing a sense of awe in creation is not looking, and that would be a rare scientist!

Have you got some examples?

Law cannot do this, and neither can science. Spirituality does this.

Agree.

But then, how do we forgive our enemies, those that we see as alien, or evil? The Church itself needs some guidance on this, and that is what this thread is about.

We try to love and forgive people around us, friends, family etc, and want in return the same, we don’t always get this. Even showing this to others, some will change others will not, we can not force this upon people as may have happened in the past, by control etc. People sometimes just do not want to change, they don’t want to think we are all one and the same, there will always be the people on top and the poor below…
Some are far beyond our reach as humans, we can only do our best

 

[pocaracas]

I know this is off-topic… but

Our priest also made it clear that the recent killings in the abortion clinic could never be condoned. I wonder was there anyone thinking contrary to that…

Yes, there are people like that…

i.imgur.com/wjtV4o5.jpg
i.imgur.com/x75QvSm.jpg
i.imgur.com/3nhP9mX.jpg
i.imgur.com/TqTI21T.jpg
i.imgur.com/KS5ME7C.jpg
i.imgur.com/kMNvfBo.jpg

 

[OneSheep]

Have you got some examples?

Yes.

For example, evolutionary psychology is showing us the survival advantages of emotions such as anger. We can see that the addition of that emotion aided our survival, and we can therefore see that anger, as well as all the emotions are a gift from God.

More and more psychological studies have been done concerning the benefits of forgiveness. Research into particle physics continues to awe all of those involved, as do all of the other sciences.

We try to love and forgive people around us, friends, family etc, and want in return the same, we don’t always get this. Even showing this to others, some will change others will not, we can not force this upon people as may have happened in the past, by control etc. People sometimes just do not want to change, they don’t want to think we are all one and the same, there will always be the people on top and the poor below…
Some are far beyond our reach as humans, we can only do our best

The most important thing missing in the above is the true “we”. “We”, as a community, are perhaps a little more forgiving than those of secular persuasion (on average). Think about it, do people on CAF communicate a lot of forgiveness, or is it more about protecting doctrine? Yes, some (most?) of us put people over doctrine, and others are so caught up in protecting doctrine that they attack whatever seems as a threat with full animosity. There is a place for fraternal correction, but we are to forgive before we correct.

Where are the voices calling us to forgive our enemies, ISIS, their allies, etc.? For many, it is too soon to forgive, so that is understandable. But as our U.S. media continues to generate animosity, where are the voices that give us the means to understand our enemies?

Peace.

 

[simpleas]

I know this is off-topic… but

Yes, there are people like that…

i.imgur.com/wjtV4o5.jpg
i.imgur.com/x75QvSm.jpg
i.imgur.com/3nhP9mX.jpg
i.imgur.com/TqTI21T.jpg
i.imgur.com/KS5ME7C.jpg
i.imgur.com/kMNvfBo.jpg

Yes I had seen that first comment on F.B. I was thinking more about the people gathered with me in church…

 

[simpleas]

Yes.

For example, evolutionary psychology is showing us the survival advantages of emotions such as anger. We can see that the addition of that emotion aided our survival, and we can therefore see that anger, as well as all the emotions are a gift from God.

More and more psychological studies have been done concerning the benefits of forgiveness. Research into particle physics continues to awe all of those involved, as do all of the other sciences.

The most important thing missing in the above is the true “we”. “We”, as a community, are perhaps a little more forgiving than those of secular persuasion (on average). Think about it, do people on CAF communicate a lot of forgiveness, or is it more about protecting doctrine? Yes, some (most?) of us put people over doctrine, and others are so caught up in protecting doctrine that they attack whatever seems as a threat with full animosity. There is a place for fraternal correction, but we are to forgive before we correct.

Where are the voices calling us to forgive our enemies, ISIS, their allies, etc.? For many, it is too soon to forgive, so that is understandable. But as our U.S. media continues to generate animosity, where are the voices that give us the means to understand our enemies?

Peace.

Peace :thankyou:

Yes from what I can tell of history, it takes many years for forgiveness to happen, and sometimes never for some people. Like ww2 for example. I have no real idea what people went through, but I can understand their pain. :sad_yes:

The media the world over is the same. So many reports I’m not always convinced about. I do wonder why the media isn’t covering the leaders of Muslim communities, on our local news we sometimes get coverage with talks between Muslim leaders, youth etc on why youths born and brought up in UK decide to join the terrorists.
I think it would benefit some to hear their leaders on national and world news speaking against terrorism.

I agree on CAF alot of posters seem to be more concerned for doctrine than the individual, but then it is a website for Catholic Answers, so your going to get them…

So far, I have not had a priest recite doctrine to me when asking a difficult question. If it was a specific question regarding doctrine I think they would, but a personal question not so much. That’s why I don’t think it’s a good idea to ask personal questions publicly.

So what happens, we forgive people who blow up, shot and kill others. Do we go and bomb their places, homes, land etc? Cameron (our prime minister ) wants to employ strikes on IS, yet I don’t think we should. I’m not clued up on politics, but I see that violence has never solved anything, yet I’m not stupid enough to know that this world will always demand army soldiers, because there will always be someone who wants to take over someone else’s land etc.
So how do we forgive, yet protect people from terrorists?

Is this going off topic to much?

 

[pocaracas]

Hi simpleas.
As to that whole IS (or rather Daesh) business, I think we need to get our news from some alternative places. I get mine from the russians: rt.com/news/323395-france-imams-licence-preach/… but I’m sure there are other agencies providing these really newsworthy stories.
This one news-story represents one of the great problems with Islam - the utter lack of a central “governing” body. Anyone who can talk, can be an Imam, can preach as if God was behind him. And that breeds abuse. It happens in the myriad denominations of Christianity (where some are simply interested in making money) and in Islam and, possibly in other religions, like Hinduism.

It was, possibly, that centralized body in Catholicism that allowed western societies to become what they are now… or maybe it was heavily inspired in Roman politics and those are the ones we should praise… but the Catholics are the ones that stayed their course till this day. One must acknowledge that European history would have likely been very different without Catholicism… Better or worse? I don’t know, but certainly different.
For that alone, all the mistakes made by this church can be forgiven. For having the freedom of thought I have, the freedom of speech, the freedom to access the internet and learn anything at the touch of a button.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi simpleas.
As to that whole IS (or rather Daesh) business, I think we need to get our news from some alternative places. I get mine from the russians: rt.com/news/323395-france-imams-licence-preach/… but I’m sure there are other agencies providing these really newsworthy stories.
This one news-story represents one of the great problems with Islam - the utter lack of a central “governing” body. Anyone who can talk, can be an Imam, can preach as if God was behind him. And that breeds abuse. It happens in the myriad denominations of Christianity (where some are simply interested in making money) and in Islam and, possibly in other religions, like Hinduism.

It was, possibly, that centralized body in Catholicism that allowed western societies to become what they are now… or maybe it was heavily inspired in Roman politics and those are the ones we should praise… but the Catholics are the ones that stayed their course till this day. One must acknowledge that European history would have likely been very different without Catholicism… Better or worse? I don’t know, but certainly different.
For that alone, all the mistakes made by this church can be forgiven. For having the freedom of thought I have, the freedom of speech, the freedom to access the internet and learn anything at the touch of a button.

Thanks for the link, Pocaracas. That was an interesting story about licensing Imams. It’s an optimistic concept, to establish an orthodoxy in a rather disparate religion, to impose some kind of certification. I would imagine that those who are marginalized in society, though, would find an non-certified Imam more attractive, not less, and demand does have a tendency to develop a product…

And yes, having a very centralized power structure definitely helps us avoid the chaos one can find in some non-denominational Christian communities (with Jim Jones being one of the most extreme).

Obrigado

 

[OneSheep]

Peace :thankyou:

Yes from what I can tell of history, it takes many years for forgiveness to happen, and sometimes never for some people. Like ww2 for example. I have no real idea what people went through, but I can understand their pain. :sad_yes:

The media the world over is the same. So many reports I’m not always convinced about. I do wonder why the media isn’t covering the leaders of Muslim communities, on our local news we sometimes get coverage with talks between Muslim leaders, youth etc on why youths born and brought up in UK decide to join the terrorists.
I think it would benefit some to hear their leaders on national and world news speaking against terrorism.

I agree on CAF alot of posters seem to be more concerned for doctrine than the individual, but then it is a website for Catholic Answers, so your going to get them…

So far, I have not had a priest recite doctrine to me when asking a difficult question. If it was a specific question regarding doctrine I think they would, but a personal question not so much. That’s why I don’t think it’s a good idea to ask personal questions publicly.

So what happens, we forgive people who blow up, shot and kill others. Do we go and bomb their places, homes, land etc? Cameron (our prime minister ) wants to employ strikes on IS, yet I don’t think we should. I’m not clued up on politics, but I see that violence has never solved anything, yet I’m not stupid enough to know that this world will always demand army soldiers, because there will always be someone who wants to take over someone else’s land etc.
So how do we forgive, yet protect people from terrorists?

Is this going off topic to much?

Hi Simpleas,

What we do is continue to protect ourselves, but from the top down encourage forgiveness of the enemy. I was talking to a fellow in the military a couple months ago, and he said that in the modern U.S. military, soldiers are encouraged to see their opponents as people with families just as they are, as people like the rest of us.

I was a bit surprised, because in the Viet Nam era I know that the enemy was dehumanized with derogatory labels. However, what happened in Nam were too many atrocities against civilians and opponents, people had “hot heads”. No commander wants to be known for having soldiers doing such atrocities under their watch. In addition, when people fight in anger, when they don’t have a “cool head” they make serious errors, endangering themselves and fellow soldiers.

What we need to do, as a citizenry, is to follow this same model. ** Ironically, we can use this military example, humanizing of the enemy, as a starting-point for relations with nations we have conflicting goals, and thus avoid violent confrontation in the first place!
**

Oh, and I must add (of course ) that one means of humanizing the enemy is to understand that they intend something good, and that when they do hurtful things, they really do not know what they are doing; they do not K&WRG.

Thanks.

 

[simpleas]

Hi Pocaracas and Onesheep:

Apologies for late reply, been busy.

Pocaracas, I do watch RT from time to time, I think with their reports I’m getting the bigger picture, we usually have sky news or bbc on.

Onesheep, ok I can understand soldiers being told to see the “enemy” as human as they are, etc, but that should mean that we don’t retaliate by air strikes etc.Like if someone is going to shoot you, and you have the means to protect yourself, you would most likely protect yourself. War of nations isn’t like that, most people it seems want their government to go in and kill, destroy what is seen as the “enemy”, at least from the news reports, they claim most people say they think armies should go in and flush them out.
We never learn that violence isn’t the answer.
But also, if a soldier sees the enemy as human, why would they want to kill them? If the leaders of armies are training soldiers to kill, not just the enemy but also the innocent, how do they do it by saying they are just as human as you?

Thanks

 

[StevenFrancis]

Hello StevenFrancis,

I love your “and see how wrong I am” humility. There hasn’t been enough of that!

I have stated that I am have made conclusions based on my observations, and that I am open-minded about examples that I have not considered.

My observation of the case you have brought forth is that atheists are not rejecting God, because they do not believe in God in the first place. They are rejecting belief in God, and as pocaracas-the-zealous-portagee will contest, they do not know God from an inner experience as Christians do.

Did I miss something on that example?

Thanks, StevenFrancis.

Oh you wascally wabbit.

I learned something from you post, though, and I think your comments are still close enough to be considered on-topicky.

Thank you one sheep. Your example was great, and I get it. I suppose it’s true enough when we speak of Atheists in general terms, and really, what else can we do without knowing every heart? God alone knows what is in each person’s heart. The Holy Spirit speaks to us in what we refer to as our conscience, and if there is truly no tug to any given individual atheists’ conscience that they are deceiving themselves or others, and if they don’t have any kind of a small warning or anything at all inside that they are denying their creator and redeemer, then it’s theologically possible that they would be in the category of “invincibly ignorant” of God, even after the incarnation, and exposure to the Gospel of Jesus, if they simply can not believe, and it is truly and honestly without any violation of personal conscience, then it may not be willfully and knowingly rejecting God.
I suppose we won’t really know until the last day. I just suspect, personally, (and therefore, it is a theory, not an axiom), that there does exist a percentage of atheists who have had the Gospel of the incarnated God, (Jesus Christ) revealed to them, and in an act of human pride have rejected it, willfully, because it doesn’t fit what they want the truth to be. This group, (which may be very small, if I am correct about their existence at all), may have had their ideas fueled as well by encounters with Christians who are bad actors, and are mistaking the actions of individual or groups of ChristIANS with the truth of ChristIANITY, which fuels their disenchantment with God. Ironically, these feelings may go a long way in reducing their culpability, but since it began with a violation of conscience is still quite problematic. All Atheists, agnostics, pagans, and non-Christian religious adherents are in need of our prayers, and as with all people must be treated with respect, and given their dignity. Whether their rejection is a violation of their conscience or whether it is organic in nature to their reason and in accordance with their conscience.

 

[pocaracas]

I suppose we won’t really know until the last day. I just suspect, personally, (and therefore, it is a theory, not an axiom), that there does exist a percentage of atheists who have had the Gospel of the incarnated God, (Jesus Christ) revealed to them, and in an act of human pride have rejected it, willfully, because it doesn’t fit what they want the truth to be.

Why “want the truth to be”?
I think people in such circumstances become atheists because they develop stricter requirements for accepting something as true… not that they want something else to be true.
Those things that they had been exposed to no longer pass muster…
How does that happen? How does someone go from considering something as true to not?
Perhaps they come across some piece of information about how those things actually came into being… or something is allowed to cast doubt on the official story of how those things came into being… or something else…
I don’t know… I don’t count myself on that group