Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

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Thank you one sheep. Your example was great, and I get it. I suppose it’s true enough when we speak of Atheists in general terms, and really, what else can we do without knowing every heart? God alone knows what is in each person’s heart. The Holy Spirit speaks to us in what we refer to as our conscience, and if there is truly no tug to any given individual atheists’ conscience that they are deceiving themselves or others, and if they don’t have any kind of a small warning or anything at all inside that they are denying their creator and redeemer, then it’s theologically possible that they would be in the category of “invincibly ignorant” of God, even after the incarnation, and exposure to the Gospel of Jesus, if they simply can not believe, and it is truly and honestly without any violation of personal conscience, then it may not be willfully and knowingly rejecting God.
Hi Steven Francis!

So, yes, it is certainly possible that a person may have invincible ignorance. Now, try to come up with an example of someone who rejects God actually knowing all things relevant about his choice and actually willing to reject God as accurately conceived. You are making it sound like ignorance is the rare exception, but what I am observing is that no one ever knowingly and willingly rejects God.🙂

So please try to present an example that runs contrary to my observations. For example, in my observations, the person who chooses to be ignorant does so in ignorance.
I suppose we won’t really know until the last day. I just suspect, personally, (and therefore, it is a theory, not an axiom), that there does exist a percentage of atheists who have had the Gospel of the incarnated God, (Jesus Christ) revealed to them, and in an act of human pride have rejected it, willfully, because it doesn’t fit what they want the truth to be. This group, (which may be very small, if I am correct about their existence at all), may have had their ideas fueled as well by encounters with Christians who are bad actors, and are mistaking the actions of individual or groups of ChristIANS with the truth of ChristIANITY, which fuels their disenchantment with God. Ironically, these feelings may go a long way in reducing their culpability, but since it began with a violation of conscience is still quite problematic. All Atheists, agnostics, pagans, and non-Christian religious adherents are in need of our prayers, and as with all people must be treated with respect, and given their dignity. Whether their rejection is a violation of their conscience or whether it is organic in nature to their reason and in accordance with their conscience.
Violation of conscience is going to depend on conscience formation, of course. The atheist who rejects Christianity based on the example of the vengeful guy who went into Planned Parenthood and shot some people would be operating from a fairly well-formed conscience. His rejection would be one of ignorance, though, because the probability remains that the shooter did not operate from a position of forgiveness, which is our first calling. Yes, justice is important, but Jesus first commandments are to love God and one another, and if the shooter thought he was operating from love for his victims, he was quite incorrect.

Do you see what I am saying? The shooter violated my conscience, but not his own. The atheist rejecting Christianity based on the action of the shooter did not violate his conscience, nor does he violate mine.

Does anyone ever knowingly and willingly choose against their own conscience?

Try to think of an easy example, it turns out to be extremely difficult!

Thanks for your response!
 
Onesheep, ok I can understand soldiers being told to see the “enemy” as human as they are, etc, but that should mean that we don’t retaliate by air strikes etc.Like if someone is going to shoot you, and you have the means to protect yourself, you would most likely protect yourself. War of nations isn’t like that, most people it seems want their government to go in and kill, destroy what is seen as the “enemy”, at least from the news reports, they claim most people say they think armies should go in and flush them out.
We never learn that violence isn’t the answer.
But also, if a soldier sees the enemy as human, why would they want to kill them? If the leaders of armies are training soldiers to kill, not just the enemy but also the innocent, how do they do it by saying they are just as human as you?

Thanks
Hi Simpleas

Retaliation is justified int their minds as a means of providing a disincentive for further action on the part of the enemy. This, however, was certainly part of the reason why those guys shot up all of those people in Paris, to provide a reason (fear for their own safety) for the French to scale back the ongoing operation against the self-proclaimed “Islamic State”.

So, the French join the war against ISIS, and they retaliate, trying to scare off the French, and then the French government does not want the ISIS action to be rewarded, so they prove to ISIS that they had miscalculated. Then, of course ISIS has to retaliate because they do not want France to be rewarded for thinking that they can be beaten back by French retaliation, and behold, escalation occurs.

Even if there is not an escalation in “successful” attacks, there is certainly an escalation in hatred. For example, we are not hearing about Israel/Palestine too much, but the escalation in hatred there is not being adequately addressed by the world.

So, the forgiving soldier sadly carries out his operation. “Sorry we have to do this, but there is no other option. I am doing my job, and you are doing yours.”

The soldier starts in an organization that usually (exception: actual defense) operates from a position that begins with lack of forgiveness, and then encourages forgiveness of the enemy as they operate (for some U.S. soldiers anyway). Again, quite ironic - the government fails to forgive, but soldiers do so for tactical reasons.

Jesus calls us to a different option. The leadership, starting with the leadership of the oppressed, is to forgive the oppressor. Can you imagine what the effect would have been for the oppressed populations of Syrians to have massed in the streets praying for Assad? There are other ways, too, shown by the actions of Mahatma Gandhi and others.

Look at what ancient cultures of hunter-gatherers do, simpleas. The !Kung Bushman hunter expresses sorrow to the animal before killing it, explaining the need his family has for sustenance. People’s consciences make room for doing violence in times of need, and I know that you would agree it is not a K&WR of God.

We never learn that violence is not the answer? Why be so pessimistic? I have learned, and you have learned, but the leadership has not. We can start with the Church! Preaching non-violence is a bit of a non-starter, but everyone knows that Forgiveness is important, they just don’t know how, or when, right?
 
Originally Posted by OneSheep
So, the forgiving soldier sadly carries out his operation. “Sorry we have to do this, but there is no other option. I am doing my job, and you are doing yours.”
Yes and so nothing changes…
We never learn that violence is not the answer? Why be so pessimistic? I have learned, and you have learned, but the leadership has not. We can start with the Church! Preaching non-violence is a bit of a non-starter, but everyone knows that Forgiveness is important, they just don’t know how, or when, right?
I was pessimistic because I was waiting to hear if our “leaders” were going to go ahead with the airstrikes, knowing that this will not change anything, it may slow it down, or make matters even worse.
I was mostly depressed this am when I watch the news, tears in my eyes for the people in syria where many are just like me and you, they want to live, eat, drink, earn money, live in peace with their families.
Mr Cameron called people who were opposed to these airstrikes as terrorist sympathizers. …

Our church here in UK along with the church of England have said this war is justifiable. Not sure if our spiritual leaders are doing a good job at the moment?

I mean how can someone preach forgiveness, but also believe it is justified to kill innocent people, because there will be innocent people killed there and in our own countries.

If you forgive people, you do not kill them. Or forgiveness makes no sense to me.

Thanks.
 
Yes and so nothing changes…

I was pessimistic because I was waiting to hear if our “leaders” were going to go ahead with the airstrikes, knowing that this will not change anything, it may slow it down, or make matters even worse.
I was mostly depressed this am when I watch the news, tears in my eyes for the people in syria where many are just like me and you, they want to live, eat, drink, earn money, live in peace with their families.
Mr Cameron called people who were opposed to these airstrikes as terrorist sympathizers. …

Our church here in UK along with the church of England have said this war is justifiable. Not sure if our spiritual leaders are doing a good job at the moment?
It would take some real courage at this point for a spiritual leader to stand up and say something about forgiveness. Jesus stood up and spoke about forgiving their oppressive occupier, the Romans. He was very unpopular with many.
I mean how can someone preach forgiveness, but also believe it is justified to kill innocent people, because there will be innocent people killed there and in our own countries.
If you forgive people, you do not kill them. Or forgiveness makes no sense to me.
Of course it is “justified”, simpleas. Justice is in the eye of the beholder. That is why Pope Francis’ statement, “there is no justification for their acts” does not help at all. Yes, there is justification, but we do not agree with their justification. There is more truth to the statement “those gunmen did not know what they were doing”.

In terms of metaphor, every Muslim gunman was a member of the crowd at the foot of the crucifixion, and every victim was Christ being crucified. The gunmen were carrying out justice, taking revenge on the atrocities done to their own comrades and families by airstrikes carried out by foreigners flying over their land. This is not a condonation, of course, and it is certainly no excuse for them. It is an explanation.

Now as far as forgiving an aggressor - if an active gunman is taking out people, and you have the means to kill the attacker, would a human be capable of forgiving an attacker before neutralizing him? It would be tough to forgive immediately, but the ethical choice is to stop the killer by whatever means, of course, whether or not they forgive.

What Mr. Cameron is saying is very understandable and very human. Yes, it is stop-gap.

I heard a report today on the radio about people in the CIA making decisions about assassinating al Qaeda members with drones, they knew what they were doing was stop-gap and buying time at best, for their (CIA) actions were generating more hatred. They knew that the real need was for “political negotiators with the courage and creativity to work for lasting solutions” to stop the underlying push for terrorist activities: the marginalizing of groups of people, the oppression, the dehumanizing lack of respect for basic rights, etc., all of which occurred under the regimes in Syria and Iraq.

Cameron and other such leaders mean well, right? The government is trying to protect us. They are not knowingly and willingly hurting anyone, as they are blinded by anger, resentment, and desire for protection. And, of course there is fear involved, as no political leader wants to be responsible for making a decision that makes a nation more vulnerable; the criticism from the opposition would be insurmountable if a politician made a decision to work for peace rather than do the standard retaliation.
 
Yes I understand why they do what they do and I can say I do not agree. I speak more about our countries retaliation back at them, we are the followers of Christ, yet even two thousand years later and many wars we still do not SEE. We remember the people who died in the 1st and 2nd world wars every year. But we still use violence to try and control people of different beliefs, I mean both sides not just the so called christain nations.

Humans are the most dangerous creatures.

So if our spiritual leaders again on both sides do not promote forgiveness, then there is no point to their leadership. We are becoming less spiritual by the year. There is one leader of the opposition here in UK that was speaking against strikes. Of course he was on the side of the terrorists:rolleyes:

thanks for the conversation Onesheep I’m not big on politic s and army stuff, best inform myself a lot more from now on. In my world everyone loves each other and we live in peace. I’m away with the faries as they say in Ireland! !
Have a peaceful and happy weekend. 👍
 
It would take some real courage at this point for a spiritual leader to stand up and say something about forgiveness. Jesus stood up and spoke about forgiving their oppressive occupier, the Romans. He was very unpopular with many.

Of course it is “justified”, simpleas. Justice is in the eye of the beholder. That is why Pope Francis’ statement, “there is no justification for their acts” does not help at all. Yes, there is justification, but we do not agree with their justification. There is more truth to the statement “those gunmen did not know what they were doing”.

In terms of metaphor, every Muslim gunman was a member of the crowd at the foot of the crucifixion, and every victim was Christ being crucified. The gunmen were carrying out justice, taking revenge on the atrocities done to their own comrades and families by airstrikes carried out by foreigners flying over their land. This is not a condonation, of course, and it is certainly no excuse for them. It is an explanation.

Now as far as forgiving an aggressor - if an active gunman is taking out people, and you have the means to kill the attacker, would a human be capable of forgiving an attacker before neutralizing him? It would be tough to forgive immediately, but the ethical choice is to stop the killer by whatever means, of course, whether or not they forgive.

What Mr. Cameron is saying is very understandable and very human. Yes, it is stop-gap.

I heard a report today on the radio about people in the CIA making decisions about assassinating al Qaeda members with drones, they knew what they were doing was stop-gap and buying time at best, for their (CIA) actions were generating more hatred. They knew that the real need was for “political negotiators with the courage and creativity to work for lasting solutions” to stop the underlying push for terrorist activities: the marginalizing of groups of people, the oppression, the dehumanizing lack of respect for basic rights, etc., all of which occurred under the regimes in Syria and Iraq.

Cameron and other such leaders mean well, right? The government is trying to protect us. They are not knowingly and willingly hurting anyone, as they are blinded by anger, resentment, and desire for protection. And, of course there is fear involved, as no political leader wants to be responsible for making a decision that makes a nation more vulnerable; the criticism from the opposition would be insurmountable if a politician made a decision to work for peace rather than do the standard retaliation.
There can be no justification for evil acts. There may be reasons, or rationalizations, for these acts. However, none of these are justifiable. Evil acts are acts of injustice.

Definition of justice:
1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments
b : judge
c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : ** the quality of being just, impartial, or fair **
b (1) :** the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness **
c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness
The bolded are the most pertinent.
 
This poster will be supplying no more examples.
Okay, David! If you change your mind, and want to actually investigate an example, please feel free to join in! 🙂

Readers: we have still failed to address several possibilities for someone knowingly and willingly rejecting God. Please feel free to bring up an example to investigate!

So far we have discussed several Biblical persons including Adam, the Pharisees, and Judas, and none of the rejection was “knowing and willing”. Here is a closely related question: Does anyone ever knowingly and willingly hurt anyone? Remember: I am using “knowingly” meaning “has in mind all relevant information.”

Thanks!
 
Yes I understand why they do what they do and I can say I do not agree. I speak more about our countries retaliation back at them, we are the followers of Christ, yet even two thousand years later and many wars we still do not SEE. We remember the people who died in the 1st and 2nd world wars every year. But we still use violence to try and control people of different beliefs, I mean both sides not just the so called christain nations.

Humans are the most dangerous creatures.

So if our spiritual leaders again on both sides do not promote forgiveness, then there is no point to their leadership. We are becoming less spiritual by the year. There is one leader of the opposition here in UK that was speaking against strikes. Of course he was on the side of the terrorists:rolleyes:

thanks for the conversation Onesheep I’m not big on politic s and army stuff, best inform myself a lot more from now on. In my world everyone loves each other and we live in peace. I’m away with the faries as they say in Ireland! !
Have a peaceful and happy weekend. 👍
Hi Simpleas,

Your post began a bit pessimistic, but ended in hope. We are not becoming less spiritual by the year, Simpleas. We are growing and learning. While we take our two steps back, preparing for the three steps forward, we suffer. Suffering always leads us to enlightenment.

Lets take, for example, the guy that did that stabbing in the tube. What an amazing comment to go viral, “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv”. We praise this statement, but look how “exclusive” it is! Yet, there is a place for this natural reaction of frustration on the part of the Muslim (?) bystander. The statement of ostracism will hopefully awaken those Muslims striving to enact revenge on people. On the other hand, there is the one word, “bruv” that again speaks worlds about openness to inclusion in spite of the statement of ostracism. The human, in his natural state, modifies his behavior in the climate of conditional love.

“Bruv” communicates love, “you are my brother”. “You ain’t no Muslim” communicates a condition, "I’ll love you ‘if’ ". Isn’t our nature amazing, beautiful?

Would this frustration on the part of the majority of Muslims happen if it were not for the misdeeds of the few? No, this is the suffering that must take place, suffering the untruths of radical Islam. This can only lead to a better world, simpleas, not a worse one, and certainly not a less spiritual one. Do you see what I mean? There is always reason for hope!

🙂
 
Did the tube attacker knowingly and willingly reject God? Does the preacher in Texas saying “Islam is satanic” K&WRG? Did St.Peter K&WRG? How about a priest who molests children? The televangelist who uses prostitutes?

Again, as many have said, we do not know their minds. But what we can do is investigate every option that we are aware of possibly occurring. Can we come up with a scenario where the human actually knowingly and willingly rejects God?

That is the question here, and I am still seeking such scenarios to investigate! 🙂

So far, no case has survived the test of scrutiny…
 
Did the tube attacker knowingly and willingly reject God? Does the preacher in Texas saying “Islam is satanic” K&WRG? Did St.Peter K&WRG? How about a priest who molests children? The televangelist who uses prostitutes?

Again, as many have said, we do not know their minds. But what we can do is investigate every option that we are aware of possibly occurring. Can we come up with a scenario where the human actually knowingly and willingly rejects God?

That is the question here, and I am still seeking such scenarios to investigate! 🙂

So far, no case has survived the test of scrutiny…
Hi One Sheep,

Funny that I should check in today with what’s happening and you’re mentioning it.

The tube attacker did not K&W reject God because he believes he’s following the God he knows. Then again, WHO is the God he knows? But that’s a different thread. False conception, as you would say.

The Texas preacher did not K&W reject God - he’s just stating an opinion of a religion that Americans are very afraid of right now. Fear, as you would say.

I don’t believe Peter K&W rejected Jesus as God. He did know who Jesus was at this point, but his fear overcame him and so he denied Christ and then he hid with the other 10 apostles until Jesus resurrected and they saw Him and were empowered. Once he got over his fear, he again served his Lord.

The priests who molests children: He’s serving God to the best of his ability. His ability isn’t too high on the radar screen - but what could you do? We’re a fragile bunch, aren’t we? Jesus said Those Who Do The Will Of My Father. What is that will? Is it believing Jesus is the Christ, is it following every rule? If it’s the prior the priest might be okay, if it’s the latter, he’s in trouble. But then you’ll say he’s a bit deranged or he wouldn’t do this type of horrible thing - and I’d have to agree. Did you ever see Lolita with Jeremy Irons? The last scene of that movie left me totally sad, as sad as any movie scene ever. The loss of innocence and the realization that he was the cause of it.

The televangelist who uses prostitutes. Ditto. Do As I Say, Not As I Do since I am also a man and capable of a dark heart. (man=human).

As far as coming up with someone who fits your scenario - you know that’s not possible. I do give it some thought every now and then. But everyone who denies God must be crazy, and yes, maybe that IS the answer.

34 children have been left without either one or two parents in the S. Bernardino attack. how to forgive? HOW? If God will not forgive, why must I?? Question: Will He forgive in such a case?

Fran
 
Originally Posted by OneSheep
Your post began a bit pessimistic, but ended in hope. We are not becoming less spiritual by the year, Simpleas. We are growing and learning. While we take our two steps back, preparing for the three steps forward, we suffer. Suffering always leads us to enlightenment.
I thought this thread was done, it’s nearly at its allowed posts anyway. I’m sure you will allow me to express some pessimistic thoughts, I’ve had to stop watching the news for a while.
That maybe your opinion on the spirituality of the human race. I see good in most every person I meet, I don’t know every person alive, and I sure do not know what is in their heart, but from some of the news reports on many things that affect us as a human family, I do see a lack of spirit.Yes suffering can lead to enlightenment, it can also lead to revenge.
Lets take, for example, the guy that did that stabbing in the tube. What an amazing comment to go viral, “You ain’t no Muslim, bruv”. We praise this statement, but look how “exclusive” it is! Yet, there is a place for this natural reaction of frustration on the part of the Muslim (?) bystander. The statement of ostracism will hopefully awaken those Muslims striving to enact revenge on people. On the other hand, there is the one word, “bruv” that again speaks worlds about openness to inclusion in spite of the statement of ostracism. The human, in his natural state, modifies his behavior in the climate of conditional love.
The last I heard about this was that the attacker was being assessed under the mental health act, so I don’t know if he was a terrorist. I think people were just expressing that a “real” or “true” Muslim would not be doing that sort of thing, normal everyday Muslims are peaceful and reject that kind of behavior.
Would this frustration on the part of the majority of Muslims happen if it were not for the misdeeds of the few? No, this is the suffering that must take place, suffering the untruths of radical Islam. This can only lead to a better world, simpleas, not a worse one, and certainly not a less spiritual one. Do you see what I mean? There is always reason for hope!
How about just not blowing people up, on both sides, in any war, any where in the world, that is how we can have a better world, no need to suffer for it, we suffer with enough human faults.

Thanks.
 
Did the tube attacker knowingly and willingly reject God? Does the preacher in Texas saying “Islam is satanic” K&WRG? Did St.Peter K&WRG? How about a priest who molests children? The televangelist who uses prostitutes?

Again, as many have said, we do not know their minds. But what we can do is investigate every option that we are aware of possibly occurring. Can we come up with a scenario where the human actually knowingly and willingly rejects God?

That is the question here, and I am still seeking such scenarios to investigate! 🙂

So far, no case has survived the test of scrutiny…
You mean this guy :

theblaze.com/stories/2015/11/19/islam-is-inspired-by-satan-himself-megachurch-pastors-fiery-sermon-about-the-muslim-faith/

“The government doesn’t need to forgive” he says, we do, who are the government then? a bunch of non humans? They send the people who, if Christian, are called to love and forgive enemies- but not until they rid the world of the enemy!
 
Originally Posted by frangiuliano115
The Texas preacher did not K&W reject God - he’s just stating an opinion of a religion that Americans are very afraid of right now. Fear, as you would say.
Americans are afraid of a religion?
 
Americans are afraid of a religion?
Yes. Pretty much all parties are agreed that Syrian refugees cannot enter the States because their identities cannot be verified.

One GOP candidate is expressing an idea that students that studied in muslim countries should not be allowed back into the U.S.
 
I thought this thread was done, it’s nearly at its allowed posts anyway. I’m sure you will allow me to express some pessimistic thoughts, I’ve had to stop watching the news for a while.
That maybe your opinion on the spirituality of the human race. I see good in most every person I meet, I don’t know every person alive, and I sure do not know what is in their heart, but from some of the news reports on many things that affect us as a human family, I do see a lack of spirit.Yes suffering can lead to enlightenment, it can also lead to revenge.
Hmmm… well, yes, there is a “lack of spirit” in terms of people being upset and pessimistic. All understandable.🙂 Suffering leading to revenge is simply a continuation of the suffering, revenge, then revenge, etc, etc. what I am saying is that the story always ends well, in some way. People become enlightened. Don’t you? When you have suffered from going the wrong way you learn, right?
The last I heard about this was that the attacker was being assessed under the mental health act, so I don’t know if he was a terrorist. I think people were just expressing that a “real” or “true” Muslim would not be doing that sort of thing, normal everyday Muslims are peaceful and reject that kind of behavior.
👍
How about just not blowing people up, on both sides, in any war, any where in the world, that is how we can have a better world, no need to suffer for it, we suffer with enough human faults.
👍👍
 
Hi One Sheep,

Funny that I should check in today with what’s happening and you’re mentioning it.

The tube attacker did not K&W reject God because he believes he’s following the God he knows. Then again, WHO is the God he knows? But that’s a different thread. False conception, as you would say.
Yes! 🙂
The Texas preacher did not K&W reject God - he’s just stating an opinion of a religion that Americans are very afraid of right now. Fear, as you would say.
Yes! He has fear, and fear blinds us. He does not see God in the stereotyped Muslim person: he is blinded by resentment, probably.
I don’t believe Peter K&W rejected Jesus as God. He did know who Jesus was at this point, but his fear overcame him and so he denied Christ and then he hid with the other 10 apostles until Jesus resurrected and they saw Him and were empowered. Once he got over his fear, he again served his Lord.
I agree completely. His fear also blinded him, compromising his own conscience. When he realized what he had done, he repented.
The priests who molests children: He’s serving God to the best of his ability. His ability isn’t too high on the radar screen - but what could you do? We’re a fragile bunch, aren’t we? Jesus said Those Who Do The Will Of My Father. What is that will? Is it believing Jesus is the Christ, is it following every rule? If it’s the prior the priest might be okay, if it’s the latter, he’s in trouble. But then you’ll say he’s a bit deranged or he wouldn’t do this type of horrible thing - and I’d have to agree
.

Except in the case of psychopaths and other pathologies, it is my understanding that molesters are under the illusion that their victims actually want the intimacy, they are in complete denial about the harm they do.
Did you ever see Lolita with Jeremy Irons? The last scene of that movie left me totally sad, as sad as any movie scene ever. The loss of innocence and the realization that he was the cause of it.
Sounds like I need to see it!
The televangelist who uses prostitutes. Ditto. Do As I Say, Not As I Do since I am also a man and capable of a dark heart. (man=human).
As far as coming up with someone who fits your scenario - you know that’s not possible. I do give it some thought every now and then. But everyone who denies God must be crazy, and yes, maybe that IS the answer.
A dark heart? Not sure what that means. He desires sex and passion, (it is our nature), and his conscience is compromised by desire. Of course, something else is spurring his behavior, perhaps he is obsessed about sexuality in general, and has resentment of that par of himself. Self-resentment manifests in obsessions.

And yes, crazy people do not know what they are doing…
34 children have been left without either one or two parents in the S. Bernardino attack. how to forgive? HOW? If God will not forgive, why must I?? Question: Will He forgive in such a case?
“God always waits for us. God always understands us. God always forgives us.”

Remember?

Must you forgive? Hmmm. Well, forgiveness is it’s own reward. But must you? If the command helps, then yes! If, on the other hand, the command tends to develop a negative attitude about forgiveness, then it might be better to “let go” of the command for awhile and give yourself the opportunity to freely choose to forgive, just for the sake of love and wholeness, no strings attached, no big scowls if you refrain from forgiving, no perception of punishment, etc.

Do you see what I mean?

Thanks for your contribution! You are definitely “getting it”, Fran!
 
Hmmm… well, yes, there is a “lack of spirit” in terms of people being upset and pessimistic. All understandable.🙂 Suffering leading to revenge is simply a continuation of the suffering, revenge, then revenge, etc, etc. what I am saying is that the story always ends well, in some way. People become enlightened. Don’t you? When you have suffered from going the wrong way you learn, right?

👍

👍👍
Not sure Onesheep, I don’t see a lot of enlightenment when people say its fine to kill others.
 
Yes. Pretty much all parties are agreed that Syrian refugees cannot enter the States because their identities cannot be verified.

One GOP candidate is expressing an idea that students that studied in muslim countries should not be allowed back into the U.S.
Sounds like over reaction on their part.
 
You live in England.

What do you think of No Go Zones?

But that’s off topic.

No reply necessary.

Fran
I don’t know if there are no go zones in the US, I don’t think we in UK have any, I know certain people are barred from entering the UK, but to stop regular people traveling is insane.

One person running for the US president has caused a lot of talk, now there is a petition to ban him from entering the UK! We love our petitions over here! It’s all mad :yup:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505

Here’s an interesting piece about what some think of bombing Syria, notice it gets little publicity compared to these for the bombing.

independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/veterans-throw-away-their-war-medals-in-disgust-at-british-air-strikes-in-syria-a6765446.html
 
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