Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[simpleas]

Hi Simpleas,

What exactly does original sin teach about human nature?

You don’t think all human beings are “like this”?

Which ones aren’t?

Fran

That humans make mistakes?

Seriously though, we are all made in the image and likeness of the creator, so I believe there is much goodness inside of us.

Some people I have met I would consider to be very un-selfish and not prideful at all, surely you have met some too? They may not agree, but then people can see what is in us that we can not see ourselves.

 

[frangiuliano115]

That humans make mistakes?

Seriously though, we are all made in the image and likeness of the creator, so I believe there is much goodness inside of us.

Some people I have met I would consider to be very un-selfish and not prideful at all, surely you have met some too? They may not agree, but then people can see what is in us that we can not see ourselves.

Hi simpleas,

We’ve been through this before and I guess it’s no use to belabor the point.
I see you’re very interested in Adam and Eve as is Granny. I made a couple of points on that thread but had to stop because I feel like it could become an obsession and the story of Adam and Eve has a specific purpose and then we could get carried away a bit, I think.

What I can’t seem to get clear from you is what you think original sin is all about. You post a lot but it’s so unclear. What has O.S. done to us? Just let us make mistakes?

You’re a very positive person and I like that about you. So we’re made in the image and likeness of God. Okay. But didn’t the serpent come along? What changed after that?

Did you ever stop to think that pride is at the root of all bad decisions? Sins. Or mistakes, as you call it. Is a sin a mistake? Is a mistake a sin? I wonder if One Sheep would agree. About pride, I mean. That would include selfishness, of course. Selfish people have a lot of pride. Selfish people are blind to the needs of others. They’re number ONE and no. one reigns supreme.

So, yes. I’ve met a lot of nice people. But many are loaded down with the effects of O.S. I pray for them - that they could come to know God, the Creator.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Interesting. You know that I live in a rather small area where the catholic church reigns supreme. A nice bunch of JW. They’re all over. We should learn their “system.”
An Assembly of God up in one town with about 10 members, if that many.

And a brand new church in the same town with about 15 members. I read their doctrinal statement and they believe you could be saved after death.

This goes against everything I’ve read in the N.T. (and the Old). If we could make up our minds WHILE SEEING GOD, how could we ever choose otherwise? So, is this what you believe? If so, could you explain?

Fran
P.S. i don’t think that by nature humans are good, but that’s an old story…

Hi Fran,

It is an Eastern Orthodox tradition that conversion can take place after death, and that is not directly refuted by the CCC.

Our CCC says:

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

So, is there anyone who does not die in “God’s grace and friendship”? Not the God I know. The God I know always understands, forgives, and waits for us, as Pope Francis stated. Also, the CCC states above that offenses can be forgiven “in the age to come”.

Now, concerning the “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the assertion of lack of pardon appears to be a direct contradiction to Pope Francis’ assertion: “God always forgives us”.

What Saint John Paul II said:

…‘blasphemy’ does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross… If Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven either in this life or in the next, it is because this ‘non-forgiveness’ is linked, as to its cause, to ‘non-repentance’, in other words to the radical refusal to be converted…

(Encyclical Letter Dominum et Vivificantem “The Lord and Giver of Life”] 46-47).

So, the aim of this thread is to discern whether anyone ever knowingly and willingly rejects God, i.e. “refuses to be converted”. It is pretty clear that plenty of people die rejecting God, but it is my observation that no one does so knowingly and willingly.

And, as Tonyrey said, "

tonyrey:

When we die God wouldn’t let us go to Hell without ensuring we are fully aware of what we are doing because He is infinitely good and cares for us far more than we care for ourselves.

Purgatory would definitely be a period of time where “purification” is a time of gained awareness.

Remember, Fran, if this does not fit your image of God or humanity, not a problem. This is only one way of looking at the whole.

 

[OneSheep]

Did you ever stop to think that pride is at the root of all bad decisions? Sins. Or mistakes, as you call it. Is a sin a mistake? Is a mistake a sin? I wonder if One Sheep would agree. About pride, I mean. That would include selfishness, of course. Selfish people have a lot of pride. Selfish people are blind to the needs of others. They’re number ONE and no. one reigns supreme.

I’ll do my best to keep it short. God gave us our nature, and all of us naturally have “pride” (which includes desire for status, control, and autonomy) and all of us are born self-centered with the “self” expanding as we come to love and appreciate more and more of what is around us. Arguably our “self” includes all of what we cherish, our values, friends, etc. Anyone or anything we appreciate becomes incorporated with the self and we aim to protect these as we do our own physical bodies.

All of our nature is good, as it says in Genesis. All of it serves in our survival as individuals and species. However, our nature also includes the capacity for blindness, and we are born ignorant, so we do sometimes hurt others when we are seeking something we see as good but have become blinded by desire or resentment. This hurting of others (or ourselves) is what I think of as “sin”, as well as “sins of omission”, the neglect of the needs of others. (Note: my definition stated there does not reflect the CCC definition of sin.)

So, yes, all of us are “number One”, in our own minds, at least by our nature, but does my “number One” include the idea, the commitment, to making everyone else “number One” with me? Does it include the idea that God is number One, God who is within all? We are to love our neighbor as your self

Sin is a mistake, yes. But most mistakes, not being hurtful, are not sins.

Make sense? Agree?

 

[davidv]

I’ll do my best to keep it short. God gave us our nature, and all of us naturally have “pride” (which includes desire for status, control, and autonomy) and all of us are born self-centered with the “self” expanding as we come to love and appreciate more and more of what is around us. Arguably our “self” includes all of what we cherish, our values, friends, etc. Anyone or anything we appreciate becomes incorporated with the self and we aim to protect these as we do our own physical bodies.

All of our nature is good, as it says in Genesis. All of it serves in our survival as individuals and species. However, our nature also includes the capacity for blindness, and we are born ignorant, so we do sometimes hurt others when we are seeking something we see as good but have become blinded by desire or resentment. This hurting of others (or ourselves) is what I think of as “sin”, as well as “sins of omission”, the neglect of the needs of others. (Note: my definition stated there does not reflect the CCC definition of sin.)

So, yes, all of us are “number One”, in our own minds, at least by our nature, but does my “number One” include the idea, the commitment, to making everyone else “number One” with me? Does it include the idea that God is number One, God who is within all? We are to love our neighbor as your self

Sin is a mistake, yes. But most mistakes, not being hurtful, are not sins.

Make sense? Agree?

No and no. For a number of reasons.

Pride was not part of the image and likeness of God that he created in Adam and Eve. Pride resulted from the misuse of human nature. Pride, like every sin, is unnatural from God’s perspective. Pride is a willful act that purposely disregards God’s will.

If we are number one in our minds then we have failed to be humble and have failed to obey Jesus’ command to love God above all else.

If you don’t use the Church’s definition of sin, you will be talking past most people on this forum.

 

[simpleas]

Hi simpleas,

We’ve been through this before and I guess it’s no use to belabor the point.
I see you’re very interested in Adam and Eve as is Granny. I made a couple of points on that thread but had to stop because I feel like it could become an obsession and the story of Adam and Eve has a specific purpose and then we could get carried away a bit, I think.

What I can’t seem to get clear from you is what you think original sin is all about. You post a lot but it’s so unclear. What has O.S. done to us? Just let us make mistakes?

You’re a very positive person and I like that about you. So we’re made in the image and likeness of God. Okay. But didn’t the serpent come along? What changed after that?

Did you ever stop to think that pride is at the root of all bad decisions? Sins. Or mistakes, as you call it. Is a sin a mistake? Is a mistake a sin? I wonder if One Sheep would agree. About pride, I mean. That would include selfishness, of course. Selfish people have a lot of pride. Selfish people are blind to the needs of others. They’re number ONE and no. one reigns supreme.

So, yes. I’ve met a lot of nice people. But many are loaded down with the effects of O.S. I pray for them - that they could come to know God, the Creator.

Fran

Originally Posted by frangiuliano115
What I can’t seem to get clear from you is what you think original sin is all about.

I’ll let you know when I’ve worked it out.

 

[OneSheep]

No and no. For a number of reasons.

Pride was not part of the image and likeness of God that he created in Adam and Eve. Pride resulted from the misuse of human nature. Pride, like every sin, is unnatural from God’s perspective. Pride is a willful act that purposely disregards God’s will.

Hi David!

Pride is an act? Please provide an example of a pride. Then we can examine how unnatural it is.

If we are number one in our minds then we have failed to be humble and have failed to obey Jesus’ command to love God above all else.

We are number one in our minds by nature, our God-given nature. As we grow in faith and awareness, our love comes to include more and more of creation and its source. Jesus said to love our neighbor as ourselves. Self love is important, but all love comes from God. The aware person no longer needs to discipline himself to put God first. He knows God is first.

If you don’t use the Church’s definition of sin, you will be talking past most people on this forum.

The definition I used does not contradict the Church’s. Did you find it an oversimplification?

Thanks, and God bless.

 

[davidv]

Hi David!

Pride is an act?

Yes, but not a physical act. It is an act of the will which places oneself ahead of God and others.

Please provide an example of a pride. Then we can examine how unnatural it is.

We are number one in our minds by nature, our God-given nature.

Really? Based on what?

As we grow in faith and awareness, our love comes to include more and more of creation and its source. Jesus said to love our neighbor as ourselves. Self love is important, but all love comes from God. The aware person no longer needs to discipline himself to put God first. He knows God is first.

The definition I used does not contradict the Church’s. Did you find it an oversimplification?

Grossly oversimplified to the point of being wrong. Sin is first and foremost an offense against God. Since God cannot be hurt, You definition, using hurtful as the criteria, cannot be correct.

Thanks, and God bless.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It is an act of the will which places oneself ahead of God and others. . . Sin is first and foremost an offense against God. . .

Your task evangelizing the Catholic faith I see symbolized, in this modern age of the Internet, as:
View attachment 22696

 

[frangiuliano115]

Hi Fran,

It is an Eastern Orthodox tradition that conversion can take place after death, and that is not directly refuted by the CCC.

Our CCC says:

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

So, is there anyone who does not die in “God’s grace and friendship”? Not the God I know. The God I know always understands, forgives, and waits for us, as Pope Francis stated. Also, the CCC states above that offenses can be forgiven “in the age to come”.

Now, concerning the “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the assertion of lack of pardon appears to be a direct contradiction to Pope Francis’ assertion: “God always forgives us”.

What Saint John Paul II said:

…‘blasphemy’ does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross… If Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven either in this life or in the next, it is because this ‘non-forgiveness’ is linked, as to its cause, to ‘non-repentance’, in other words to the radical refusal to be converted…

(Encyclical Letter Dominum et Vivificantem “The Lord and Giver of Life”] 46-47).

So, the aim of this thread is to discern whether anyone ever knowingly and willingly rejects God, i.e. “refuses to be converted”. It is pretty clear that plenty of people die rejecting God, but it is my observation that no one does so knowingly and willingly.

And, as Tonyrey said, "

Purgatory would definitely be a period of time where “purification” is a time of gained awareness.

Remember, Fran, if this does not fit your image of God or humanity, not a problem. This is only one way of looking at the whole.

You know One Sheep, you can do the same thing with the CCC as you can do with the bible. Take one verse, or one paragraph, and make it say what you want it to say.

Trouble is that the verse or paragraph you choose has to align itself with the rest of what the catholic church teaches, to say nothing of all those protestant denominations that agree with what I’m about to say.

So you picked no. 1030 and 1031. Let’s investigate:

You love Pope Francis and I’m starting to like him more and more and believe he will bring about some changes to the church. So you keep repeating that he says “God is always waiting to forgive us.” That means that there’s something that needs forgiving. Could it just be our blindness? Why would that need any forgiving if God is loving and waiting to forgive us? No. It must mean something else. It must mean that we’re doing something that needs forgiving. God is WAITING to forgive us. He doesn’t just forgive, he is WAITING. What is He waiting for?

He’s waiting for us to go to Him O.S… He’s waiting for us to turn from our way of living without Him, He’s waiting for us to turn from sin. Sin means missing the mark. I think Jesus and Paul chose their words well. If we’re missing the mark, it means we’re headed somewhere else. If Jesus says the Holy Spirit can be grieved, it means the H. S. can be grieved. And we will not be forgiven for that, either in this age or the next.

But what is this age? What is the next age? You REALLY believe it means this life OR after we die? Well, then, I’m afraid you haven’t understood the O.T. or the N.T. very well.
Age means a time. It could mean one of two things: Either in this age meaning right now, or in the next age - when Jesus sets up the heavenly kingdom on earth. OR it could mean this age meaning the Jewish era when Jesus was walking on this earth or the next age meaning when christianity and the transformation of man would take hold. I agree with the second definition because in the first I think there will be no more sinning which will need forgiving. It’ a dispensation. either the Jewish dispensation or the Christian dispensation.

It CANNOT mean after you die. It is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

ONE

 

[frangiuliano115]

TWO

Back to the CCC. Let’s start with 1030 THE FINAL PURIFICATION

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Please note. “All who die in God’s grace and friendship.” Could this possibly mean that some DO NOT die in God’s grace and friendship? Purgatory is not a third place O.S. There are only 2. Heaven or hell. You do get me to talk of hell a lot, don’t you? But, without your even knowing it, you bring it up by way of denying it. The bible does not deny it. So if you need the above purification, you’re headed UP.

Then you bring up no. 1031:

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

So here we’re talking about purgatory. And the FINAL JUDGEMENT. The very last White Throne Judgement, not the judgement immediately upon death. It clearly says that it is different from the punishment of the damned. Which means that some must be damned. Something you can’t seem to accept. It goes on to speak of the age, which I mentioned above.

It cannot mean that we have a “second chance” after death. It goes against everything biblical.

no. 1032 is also speaking of people in purgatory.

But let’s check out no. 1021 and 1022:

The Particular Judgment

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595

These must be scary words for you O.S.

Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.

the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.

It’s not necessary for me to proceed any further since the above is so obvious as to not require any explanation. The only thing I will say is why I spent so much time on this. Something I don’t ordinarily do on these threads of CAF.

I think your way of thinking is dangerous to someone reading along who does not know either the catholic church or the christian faith. This idea of yours is incredibly foreign to christianity in general. I know I will never convince you, but I do hope that this post h as helped someone who might be reading along.

A decision must be made. Choose this day whom you will serve. Deuteronomy. A choice must be made. If he is not against me, he is for me. OR if you’re for me you’re not against me. I think Jesus knew what He was talking about and what He meant. If the decision is to serve the Lord, a transformation takes place. You cannot be a mean person, no matter how ignorant, and then say you love God. This is grieving the Holy Spirit. As is the decision to walk away from God and live without Him. in which case, one would be without him for eternity.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, but not a physical act. It is an act of the will which places oneself ahead of God and others.

Okay, well, placing oneself ahead of God and others is understandable in the light of the fact that people are naturallyborn ignorant and self-centered. Placing oneself ahead of God and others is a stance of unawareness because in reality the good of all creation (and God within) and the good of one’s neighbor is coincidentally our own good. The good that we do is good for us, too, in the great scheme of things. So, is the “pride” the lack of awareness? Or is it simply the attitude?

Really? Based on what?

Jesus said, “Everyone loves their own body.” Children are born very self-centered, and their love follows their awareness. The progress continues, well into adulthood, likely beyond death! Have you spent much time around children?

Grossly oversimplified to the point of being wrong. Sin is first and foremost an offense against God. Since God cannot be hurt, You definition, using hurtful as the criteria, cannot be correct.

Yes, God cannot be hurt, though His Son was indeed hurt, as was undoubtedly Our Mother. Have you ever considered the pain He had seeing His Mother seeing Him?

So, you can name a sin that is not hurtful to someone? Can you name an human-intended act that is hurtful to someone that is not sinful? Okay, there are accidents…

I look forward to your response!

 

[OneSheep]

You know One Sheep, you can do the same thing with the CCC as you can do with the bible. Take one verse, or one paragraph, and make it say what you want it to say.

Trouble is that the verse or paragraph you choose has to align itself with the rest of what the catholic church teaches, to say nothing of all those protestant denominations that agree with what I’m about to say.

So you picked no. 1030 and 1031. Let’s investigate:

You love Pope Francis and I’m starting to like him more and more and believe he will bring about some changes to the church. So you keep repeating that he says “God is always waiting to forgive us.” That means that there’s something that needs forgiving. Could it just be our blindness? Why would that need any forgiving if God is loving and waiting to forgive us? No. It must mean something else. It must mean that we’re doing something that needs forgiving. God is WAITING to forgive us. He doesn’t just forgive, he is WAITING. What is He waiting for?

He’s waiting for us to go to Him O.S… He’s waiting for us to turn from our way of living without Him, He’s waiting for us to turn from sin. Sin means missing the mark. I think Jesus and Paul chose their words well. If we’re missing the mark, it means we’re headed somewhere else. If Jesus says the Holy Spirit can be grieved, it means the H. S. can be grieved. And we will not be forgiven for that, either in this age or the next.

Hi Fran!

Again, that last line is a contradiction of God’s unconditional love and forgiveness unless carefully explained (which I did using JP II’s words). You see, I am indeed making the words not contradict what I know about God-as-I-know-Him-in-my-prayer-life, which is a God who loves and forgives without limit!

Yes, of course God waits for us to repent, with open arms, always there, like the prodigal son’s Father. I actually like the “footprints in the sand” metaphor better. He is always with us, waiting for our union with Him. Yes, while we are “missing the mark” we are suffering alienation from our love of God.

Yes, we do need forgiveness, and we are forgiven. Do you see? We are mostly in agreement again.

But what is this age? What is the next age? You REALLY believe it means this life OR after we die? Well, then, I’m afraid you haven’t understood the O.T. or the N.T. very well.
Age means a time. It could mean one of two things: Either in this age meaning right now, or in the next age - when Jesus sets up the heavenly kingdom on earth. OR it could mean this age meaning the Jewish era when Jesus was walking on this earth or the next age meaning when christianity and the transformation of man would take hold. I agree with the second definition because in the first I think there will be no more sinning which will need forgiving. It’ a dispensation. either the Jewish dispensation or the Christian dispensation.

I was using “this age” and “next age” in the context that the CCC was using it. The point I was making was that the CCC and Eastern Orthodox theology on the issue do not conflict.

It CANNOT mean after you die. It is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

That verse from Hebrews does not contradict what I wrote, Fran.

On to the next post…

 

[OneSheep]

TWO

Back to the CCC. Let’s start with 1030 THE FINAL PURIFICATION

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Please note. “All who die in God’s grace and friendship.” Could this possibly mean that some DO NOT die in God’s grace and friendship? Purgatory is not a third place O.S. There are only 2. Heaven or hell. You do get me to talk of hell a lot, don’t you? But, without your even knowing it, you bring it up by way of denying it. The bible does not deny it. So if you need the above purification, you’re headed UP.

Then you bring up no. 1031:

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

So here we’re talking about purgatory. And the FINAL JUDGEMENT. The very last White Throne Judgement, not the judgement immediately upon death. It clearly says that it is different from the punishment of the damned. Which means that some must be damned. Something you can’t seem to accept. It goes on to speak of the age, which I mentioned above.

Damned by who? God always forgives, that is the Abba I know. But if that is not the God you know, then stay with your stance. It’s okay.

It cannot mean that we have a “second chance” after death. It goes against everything biblical.

no. 1032 is also speaking of people in purgatory.

But let’s check out no. 1021 and 1022:

The Particular Judgment

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595

These must be scary words for you O.S.

Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.

the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.

An alternative way of looking at this is in seeing that no one ever knowingly and willingly rejects God, indeed, all persons are accepting & moving toward God in the way that they know how. Either way, we must remain open to the possibility that a person can actually choose hell, I just see no evidence for such a choice (on Earth), nor does scripture scholar or person of pastoral rank claim that anyone has ever gone to hell, as I mentioned before.

cont’d

 

[OneSheep]

franguiliano:

It’s not necessary for me to proceed any further since the above is so obvious as to not require any explanation. The only thing I will say is why I spent so much time on this. Something I don’t ordinarily do on these threads of CAF.

I think your way of thinking is dangerous to someone reading along who does not know either the catholic church or the christian faith. This idea of yours is incredibly foreign to christianity in general. I know I will never convince you, but I do hope that this post h as helped someone who might be reading along.

God’s unconditional love and forgiveness is foreign to Christianity in general? Did I recommend Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God to you? One of the authors is a Jesuit, as is Pope Francis, but Franciscan theology is also reflecting such an image of God. There is a place for this theology, just as there is a place for more “mainstream” theology.

A decision must be made. Choose this day whom you will serve. Deuteronomy. A choice must be made. If he is not against me, he is for me. OR if you’re for me you’re not against me. I think Jesus knew what He was talking about and what He meant. If the decision is to serve the Lord, a transformation takes place. You cannot be a mean person, no matter how ignorant, and then say you love God. This is grieving the Holy Spirit. As is the decision to walk away from God and live without Him. in which case, one would be without him for eternity.
Fran

Your view is in line with a God who is focused on “condemning the sinner”, but contradicts the image of God who goes after the lost sheep. And when God goes after that lost sheep, He has an omnipotent means of revealing Himself to that sheep. Anything that we say that limits what God can do, when He can do it, or why He does it (limitless love) is a contradiction of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

A decision to walk away from God and live without Him? Does it happen? Perhaps, but only when he or she is not “knowingly and willingly” doing so. And, since our benevolent God would never let a sheep lost in ignorance choose against Him …

 

[frangiuliano115]

Damned by who? God always forgives, that is the Abba I know. But if that is not the God you know, then stay with your stance. It’s okay.

An alternative way of looking at this is in seeing that no one ever knowingly and willingly rejects God, indeed, all persons are accepting & moving toward God in the way that they know how. Either way, we must remain open to the possibility that a person can actually choose hell, I just see no evidence for such a choice (on Earth), nor does scripture scholar or person of pastoral rank claim that anyone has ever gone to hell, as I mentioned before.

cont’d

O.S.

Make up your mind!

Can we be damned or not?

First you say God always forgives. We can’t.

Then you say we must remain open to the possibility that a person can actually choose hell. We can.

Maybe you can’t see such a choice, but if the bible says that one must be made, it means that one MUST be made and that one exists.

I don’t think the bible minces words. I think both Jesus and Paul were very careful about choosing their words. Remember the story Jesus told in Luke 16? About Lazarus and the great divide? So if Jesus says a divide exists, I think I believe him. God forgives everyone who WANTS to be forgiven. We keep liking how nice God is and we keep forgetting how just He is. Do you really think He sent His only Son to die on a cross so He could be rejected and STILL be a part of the Kingdom of God? As you must know, the K of G can refer both to the kingdom here on earth, and the kingdom after the end of the world and sometimes even to heaven.

We return to why I think this whole thinking process of your is dangerous. If no one that we could think of goes to hell, then what’s the use of sending missionaries overseas, or trying to learn our faith, or going to Mass, or helping the poor.

Oh. So we should do it just because it’s the right thing to do? My question on the missionaries still stands - as for the other items, well, atheists do them too. So what’s the difference between us and them?

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

**God’s unconditional love and forgiveness is foreign to Christianity in general? ** Did I recommend Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God to you? One of the authors is a Jesuit, as is Pope Francis, but Franciscan theology is also reflecting such an image of God. There is a place for this theology, just as there is a place for more “mainstream” theology.

Your view is in line with a God who is focused on “condemning the sinner”, but contradicts the image of God who goes after the lost sheep. And when God goes after that lost sheep, He has an omnipotent means of revealing Himself to that sheep. Anything that we say that limits what God can do, when He can do it, or why He does it (limitless love) is a contradiction of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

A decision to walk away from God and live without Him? Does it happen? Perhaps, but only when he or she is not “knowingly and willingly” doing so. And, since our benevolent God would never let a sheep lost in ignorance choose against Him …

No. God’s unconditional love and forgiveness is not what’s foreign to christianity. What’s foreign is this idea of yours that no one is going to hell because we all don’t really know what we’re doing and that we have a second chance of accepting God after death. THIS is totally foreign to christianity.

You see O.S. The way you misunderstood what I said is the same way that you misunderstand the bible. You seem to read into it what is not there OR what you WANT to be there. Now, I know we both know some priests, so it’s really amazing to me how they could have such a divergent opinion. One of them must be wrong. Here’s what I say: I’m not trusting either one! I’m trusting Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and the others and the bible in general. A priest could have his own opinion just as you and I can -althought this should not be so, I know that it is.

You say:

Your view is in line with a God who is focused on “condemning the sinner”, but contradicts the image of God who goes after the lost sheep. And when God goes after that lost sheep, He has an omnipotent means of revealing Himself to that sheep. Anything that we say that limits what God can do, when He can do it, or why He does it (limitless love) is a contradiction of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

This is so bad. That you could think of me in this way after all this time. And to think that I get accused of not being catholic on other threads because I’m not a legalist or traditionalist or whatever you’d want to call it. I serve a Big God who is not locked up in a box. But, O.S., He MUST be served!

Colossians 2:6-10

Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ
Colossians 3

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.** 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
**

I could practically copy and paste the whole N.T.
We must seek Jesus
We must follow Jesus
This is our salvation.

It’s not correct to tell people that everyone is saved because it is simply not true.
This life is the only opportunity we have to choose God. Once we have made the choice, THEN He’ll be forgiving and always waiting for us even when we falter.

I see this signs on churches: Jesus Saves.

That’s it in a nutshell.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Fran,

I love your questions! Yes, if one sees the alternative way of looking at God and our faith, starting with a Father who loves and forgives without condition, then a whole bunch of other issues must be addressed!

O.S.

Make up your mind!

Can we be damned or not?

First you say God always forgives. We can’t.

Then you say we must remain open to the possibility that a person can actually choose hell. We can.

In the first alternative, God actually damns people, condemns them to hell, or does so in a subtle way with a “gotcha” approach, like “you should have known better, so tough luck”. Yes, there is definitely an emphasis on a justice that is based on condemning people for having made bad choices, and it begins with a God who does not forgive unconditionally.

In the second alternative, God keeps his arms of love and forgiveness extended regardless of the human’s mindset. God has already forgiven “before always”. With God, all things are possible, and of course that is a very positive “possible” in light of the His unconditional love. In this alternative, the human still retains his autonomy, and the choice to go to hell is respected by God, but in His benevolence that choice is never made without the person fully understanding his choice, which is brings us back to this thread. So if anyone is “damned”, he literally “damns” himself, but I cannot figure out how a human could make such a choice. We don’t make such choices knowingly and willingly, it is not in our nature to do so.

Maybe you can’t see such a choice, but if the bible says that one must be made, it means that one MUST be made and that one exists.

I don’t think the bible minces words. I think both Jesus and Paul were very careful about choosing their words. Remember the story Jesus told in Luke 16? About Lazarus and the great divide? So if Jesus says a divide exists, I think I believe him. God forgives everyone who WANTS to be forgiven. We keep liking how nice God is and we keep forgetting how just He is. Do you really think He sent His only Son to die on a cross so He could be rejected and STILL be a part of the Kingdom of God? As you must know, the K of G can refer both to the kingdom here on earth, and the kingdom after the end of the world and sometimes even to heaven.

Good Goats addresses Luke 16, but I cannot remember the details, and I don’t have the book with me right now. The crowd who hung Jesus, at the moment, did not think that they needed to be forgiven, but God forgave them anyway.

We return to why I think this whole thinking process of your is dangerous. If no one that we could think of goes to hell, then what’s the use of sending missionaries overseas, or trying to learn our faith, or going to Mass, or helping the poor.

Oh. So we should do it just because it’s the right thing to do? My question on the missionaries still stands - as for the other items, well, atheists do them too. So what’s the difference between us and them?

Fran

Well I can give you my answers to those questions! Why help the poor? Because we love and care for their well-being, to create the Kingdom. Why go to Mass? To uphold our Church, to confirm our communion, to experience God in that Communion, to hear the word of God in the modern context, to grow in Love and Awareness, to name a few reasons. The Church is the bearer and the vehicle of the Good News, if we do not go, the community disappears. Going to Mass is a Christian responsibility to uphold the vehicle. Why learn our faith? To become more whole, more one with all creation, to become more holy, which is its own reward, it is a peace of mind, it is the love of Love.

So, I think the last paragraph also answers “why missionaries?”. What is the “Good News”? It is part of our human nature to perceive that death is the end, and even if there is an afterlife we all deserve a miserable one. Every human will naturally have a lot of anxiety about his or her own guilt in the eyes of our creator, and the Good News is that God forgives all, that He forgave even those who hung Him on the cross. In addition, the Good News creates the Kingdom! Can you imagine what the world would be like if everyone followed the discipline to forgive enemies, to care for the poor, love our neighbor? It is our nature to worship the rich, powerful, and famous, but to worship a lowly servant, a victim of human lust for justice, carried out on the cross? It turns the whole picture upside down! It turns life upside down, or really, rightside up.

Do you know any atheists who worship lowly servants? In my observations they seem to be caught up in the rat race of achieving fame and fortune like we all robotically do before we awaken (rebirth). However, if an atheist does come to worship lowly service but does not believe in Jesus or God (by definition) doesn’t it seem a bit unfair for God to keep His arms open wide to them? And what about the atheist who doesn’t serve or love? Doesn’t it seem unfair for God to love and forgive them without condition? ** Yet, how could God not love and forgive them unconditionally if He is asking us to do just that?** How could God, whose love and mercy has no limit, not keep his arms open and forgiving to those who do the worst?

Sermon over. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to preach.

 

[OneSheep]

No. God’s unconditional love and forgiveness is not what’s foreign to christianity. What’s foreign is this idea of yours that no one is going to hell because we all don’t really know what we’re doing and that we have a second chance of accepting God after death. THIS is totally foreign to christianity.

If God’s mercy and love have no limit, then He gives us a gazillion chances. We are called to do the same with one another, to forgive without limit.

You say:

Your view is in line with a God who is focused on “condemning the sinner”, but contradicts the image of God who goes after the lost sheep. And when God goes after that lost sheep, He has an omnipotent means of revealing Himself to that sheep. Anything that we say that limits what God can do, when He can do it, or why He does it (limitless love) is a contradiction of God’s omnipotence and omnibenevolence.

This is so bad. That you could think of me in this way after all this time. And to think that I get accused of not being catholic on other threads because I’m not a legalist or traditionalist or whatever you’d want to call it. I serve a Big God who is not locked up in a box. But, O.S., He MUST be served!

Yes, that is the “first alternative” I am talking about. In that alternative God/humanity MUST be served, and the unrepentant individual that does not do so will be condemned by God, not forgiven. This is a conditionally loving/forgiving God, which is what I meant when I said you are speaking of a God who “condemns the sinner”. I meant the unrepentant sinner. Isn’t that what you are saying, that God does not forgive the unrepentant sinner? Your approach is natural and serves a purpose, to motivate us to repent, which has its place. We repent out of fear of condemnation. I did this as a young man, and I cannot say that it was a “wrong” approach, it was right for me at the time. It was salvation at the time. I am not thinking of you badly for this approach, Fran. It’s okay!

The lost sheep is the unrepentant sheep. The repentant sheep is not lost at all. And death? Again, I make reference to what I said before about “this age and the next” from the CCC. Yes, this is an opinion, but it is a spirituality shared by many Catholics, and I referred to some Jesuit and Franciscan approaches. It is not “dangerous”, Fran, far from it.

And if you hear someone say that they know someone is going to hell, know that they are speaking an untruth. This is the case irregardless of which “alternative” a person is working from.

You are a blessing, Fran. If I say something that sounds otherwise, let me know. You are not saying anything that is incorrect or takes away from the Kingdom, no, your words serve the Lord, and there is definitely a place for the approach you are taking. There is a greater context that encompasses both alternatives, it involves a deeper look into our soul. It is not either/or, it is both/and.

God Bless.

 

[OneSheep]

Really? Based on what?.

Hi again, David.

I would like you to respond to my previous post, but I thought of a great way of showing more “basis”.

Check this out:

youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU

This is the nature we are coming from. All functionally beautiful. Miraculous. Make sure you watch the whole thing, they cover a lot. Let me know what you think!